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Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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You probably already have a quite deeply rooted and well thought through opinion about it but if I may, I'd like to point you to these articles which I think neatly explain the pertinence of intercessory prayers.
tl;dr I think intercession helps the person praying to grow closer to God's heart as they pray unselfishly and with love for others. It's about being concerned about others, not only ourselves and also opening up our hearts to seek from God how we can be of help beyond praying, if at all. It's important to realise that the Biblical command for intercession does not only concern family and friends but also people who don't even know you or know you are praying for them and extends to enemies, those who forsake you and those who persecute you. Personally, I have realised that when intercession is done sincerely for the latter cases it usually brings about reconciliation and peace as the person praying develops a forgiving heart. Probably won't convince you but I hope it at least explains why some find it important, despite "evidence" of its ineffectiveness.
That was a refreshing post that I didn't expect to see on this thread.
It's all perspective though. Debating religion if both sides are not atheist or religious has always seemed pointless to me.
The core question is do you believe in God or not. If you don't then anything I say will be contradicted so there's no argument to be had.
If scientists revise those estimates down to 2,250,000,000 years we have to be twice as likely to believe in God.
It is not black and white for everyone. And it is not a constant through life.
I used to believe, and quite strongly in my opinion. I not only read the bible, but also a lot of books by theologians, and I was going to church every Sunday. Now, I am 100% an atheist, probably as much as Dawkins. (By the way, his books are great, including The God Delusion. )
In my case, nothing tragic happened, it wasn't so much a single instance when I stopped believing, but a gradual realization of how the world works, that we create myths so that society can function, how Physics and Evolution shaped us and so on. Science explains a lot of what in the past was a mystery. And of course, I realized that the priests take advantage of our need for meaning. And in the past they used to kill everyone that did not believe, so we are "breed" to have faith in god.
I know that a lot of believers are great people. Myself, I don't believe, but I don't dislike people who believe in god, as I don't dislike people who believe in astrology.
Your story here is very very similar to mine. I completely understand where you’re coming from.
I find both of your stories fascinating as it looks like we went down similar paths until we hit a fork and then chose different destinations. I can understand how you both ended up where it sounds like you did and I can, and do respect that.
edit. Damnit, my posts keep posting early, I think I may have a buggy keyboard.
Anyways, to finish up my thought: For me it was the process of moving away from the rigors and faults of an organized religion that helped crystalize and steady my faith. It let me move from "I grew up this way" to "I chose this way". The fact this occurred at the same time I was in graduate school was instrumental in allowing me to be the person of both faith and science that I discussed earlier.
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I envy people that have faith.
I pity people that take any religious text as something important.
I pity people that take any religious text as something important.
I would agree with the second point depending on how you mean it. If you mean taking the Bible (as an example) literally and as an unquestionable source of direction than I would agree. It is filled with contradictions and commands that we should, hopefully, find reprehensible. However, if you mean that the text is worthless than I would disagree. There are bits, especially in the New Testament, that can be useful to a person of faith if considered in the context of seeking focus or guidance.
Agree with most of that.
I truly envy anyone that just KNOWS that there’s something else. Faith trumps analysis.
But the books… believing that they are in any way connected to ‘The creator’… I’ll forever find that mental. It’s zero percent likely.
What scares these people so much?
Like, all that’s happening is human beings loving and/or Fcuking each other. That’s it. It doesn’t affect anyone. What’s the worst case scenario? Where is the downside? What are they scared of?
I get what you're saying but it doesn't adress whether prayer works in the way it's being debated in this thread. If I pray for person X to stop hurting those around him and the result is that I feel more at ease and that I'm getting closer to being able to forgive that person then nothing tangible has happened that will make X stop. All that's happened is that I've convinced myself to feel a bit better about what's going on but the people hurting are in the exact same position as they were before.
Can I ask if you've recieved advice from your god about how you can help the people you've prayed for, and how he gave you that message?
You are right but I would just argue on thing, that at the very core of it comes down to a sort of 0/1 binary switch of faith.
I find a lot of religious debates futile and I bet someone who is atheist would find the same with me because by definition we don't even agree on the rules of debate. Faith does not follow the scientific method as far as I know. So I obviously do not dislike people without a religion. If anything, it is commendable that they at least make an effort to think on their own and outside the box they were born in, in most cases anyway.
There are the obsessed militant atheists out there but unfortunately religious weirdos far outnumber them so you're standing on weak ground complaining about them. So it is not dislike, but just that I feel debates never lead to much in my experience.
I’ve said above, I do envy those with faith. It feels like a safety net.
I rail against anyone that suggests prayer is something that goes beyond the self. It’s personal and singular and can be powerful in that regard. Anyone that attaches reality to prayer is mad.
And those of us beneath you appreciate this. Truly.
It's that little clap at the end from Generic Blonde Conservative Woman #19041 at the point he mentions executing people that really pulls the whole thing together. Unhinged.
The real question then becomes what is the point of prayer? For a Christian, God's Will trumps over human desire, so whatever we pray for or whenever we pray we wish for God to answer positively but in the end the idea is to submit to His Divine and Perfect Will. He may answer "yes" but He may also answer "no" or "wait". He is Sovereign, Omniscient and Omnipotent, knowing better than us what's best for us. In the grand scheme of things whatever He decides to do or permits is always for the best in the long run, regardless of present circumstances. Committing ourselves to Him in prayer is about drawing closer to Him in order to better understand His Will.
I know that many Christian movements (denominations) use prayer like a type of magic formula by which we can command (or maybe let's say encourage?) God into fulfilling all our desires and giving us everything we want. Personally, I think prayer is really about communion with God, praising and worshipping Him, thanking Him for His grace and mercies, laying down all worries at His feet (including confession of sins and asking for forgiveness) and listening to Him talk to you in return.
I have indeed received guidance from God on many occasions and my belief is that He talks to my heart as I stay close to Him daily in Bible reading, meditation and prayers. It's something which I can't explain in words, you just feel the nudge of the Holy Spirit of God directing you on what to do. I have done lots of things which I know I would never have done (as I had never envisaged myself doing them earlier) without God's leading.
This is true, but I think sometimes there are some people in the process of pressing that switch one way or the other who might benefit from a debate.
Similar to the stories of people who lost the faith and became atheists (like some of us in this very thread), there are also countless stories of people who were previously complete atheists who find God and end up believing.
I read this story a few days ago (link), about a former atheist who became a believer. The article is a bit long but a nice read, shows once again that being a man of science and believing in God is completely possible.
It's a good question, and one which I have asked people of other faiths before. The most horrifying answer I ever got was from a evangelical (paraphrasing obviously):
ME: So you are saying that only those baptized as Christian can go to heaven?
THEM: Yes
ME: So if someone has never heard of Christ, has never had the opportunity to be "saved", even those will be denied?
THEM: Yes, because only through Christ are we saved. If someone has never heard of Jesus then it is my fault for not finding them, but they will not be saved.
The narcissism in that dogma is staggering.
Anyways, I believe (and yes I know this is against Catholic dogma) that what truly maters is how we live our lives. Anyone who lives a good and kind life, who respects and helps other, is worthy of salvation. How one gets to those actions (via faith or their own goodness) is irrelevant as what matters is the actions, not the reasoning.
All true words. It's hard to have such discussions though, even the one we are having right now. When you title a conversation "discussing religion" you often get the hardcore atheists and #checkmateAtheists religious fanatics spoil the mix.
Sometimes I watch religious and atheist debates online to find a good one but most are just bad faith arguments trying to trap the other person. The good ones are well worth watching.
People have different views on this. For me the way I see it is these are the cards God has given me. I know what I perceive to be right and wrong and what my test of faith will be. Someone born into a tribe in the Amazon has their own world of what are probably judged on but it does not concern me if it makes sense.
Haha this is absolutely true, usually each side trying to beat the other up (almost literally) into accepting their own point of view. Very unpleasant indeed. I tend to avoid such debates myself especially when I condescending language gets involved. Religion is certainly an emotional topic which must be debated with care. I’ve seen posters here use quite insulting words to describe believers which would never be accepted for any other group of humans. I don’t easily get offended but I know many who would be absolutely gobsmacked if they read this thread.
Just to make you guys aware, there is another religion thread for general discussion of religion beyond the “is there a God?/ religion is dumb!” debates - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-discussion-read-the-op-before-posting.424322/Haha this is absolutely true, usually each side trying to beat the other up (almost literally) into accepting their own point of view. Very unpleasant indeed. I tend to avoid such debates myself especially when I condescending language gets involved. Religion is certainly an emotional topic which must be debated with care. I’ve seen posters here use quite insulting words to describe believers which would never be accepted for any other group of humans. I don’t easily get offended but I know many who would be absolutely gobsmacked if they read this thread.
True, but it’s more interesting having this discussion in a non protected environment.
Non protected interesting activities lead to overpopulation
Under Shariah law we could have got rid of Boris multiple times over for various offences.
Pretty good reason for religion if you ask me.
Pretty good reason for religion if you ask me.
Ok, I guess that puts us on the same page regarding how we view prayer as it pertains to the real world, or at least pretty close anyway. My follow up question is a bit harder to answer probably, but I feel I have to ask, how do you know that nudge is from a god and not simply your own "inner voice" if you get what I mean?
The opening post in that thread is a fecking joke, to be fair.
They're afraid that they'll like it. The loudest opposition voices have probably already explored their curiosity online and are ashamed that they like it so much (and I don't mean that as a negative comment against them for liking it, only for their hypocrisy).
Was in my apartment yesterday and felt the need to go for a walk at not my normal time, also felt the need to put my rosary beads in my pocket. When I got to the bridge a young lad in distress came stumbling forward towards me and I stopped with him asked him if he was okay, said “no I’m going to jump the bridge”. I calmed him down. another off duty police calmed him down, police turned up, rescue was in the water, community officer was on a bike, paramedics were at the scene and a few members of public as well. Showed a great coming together of people to help, now I’m not saying I saved the boy but at a point it was just me and him on the middle of the bridge and anything could have happened.
It was strange how it happened and I know sceptics will say it’s a coincidence but I knew I had to leave that apartment for a reason.
It was strange how it happened and I know sceptics will say it’s a coincidence but I knew I had to leave that apartment for a reason.
Thanks for sharing that. I firmly believe that was God telling you to go on your walk. You're right, anything could have happened... but you were there. As you were meant to be.
I'm actually a bit jealous, in that I don't know if I've ever experienced God's will acting so directly through me as you have.
It’s the little things that you can’t explain and never will be able to, it’s a mystery. I was actually more overwhelmed with the coming together of people, until I got home and realised why I had gone in the first place.
They say God works in mysterious ways.
If you believe you were sent by a higher power, what's your take on all the atrocities happening daily around the world that he could stop in a similar way but doesn't? I'd be furious at any god that has the power to do something like this and then just sits by and watches when for example a vast number of people, kids included, gets raped every single day.
I'm glad the guy was saved but these kind of stories only reinforces my belief that if your god really exists then he's the biggest fecking cnut ever.
Fair play @Deery I'm glad you were in the right place at the right time and did what was needed. It's great when that happens and hopefully that young fella can get the help he needs.
As for divine intervention, there are just too many situations where nobody is there to help for me to believe it was anything other than serendipity.
As for divine intervention, there are just too many situations where nobody is there to help for me to believe it was anything other than serendipity.
Ditto.
Motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, postdiction... pick your logical fallacy. It's a strong and hard to look past it to see that and say, it was just dumb luck. I am glad Deery was there, he was the right person at the right time but he is right, where people like him see god intervening, I see it as great fortune and nothing more. I also agree if god can and does intervene, he is a monster for pediatric cancer, tsunami killing hundreds etc...
I don’t know I don’t have all the answers, maybe God does intervene in these things but the person chooses to ignore his will and goes against what is right.
My mind goes to the doctor’s recent testimony on the condition of the Uvalde childrens’ bodies…
How can you go against the will of a being powerful enough to create a universe?
— Because it chooses to let you
That doesn’t reflect well on said being, considering what it leads to