Religion, what's the point?

Carolina Red said:
Don’t even :lol: You know how many times god commanded people to slaughter whole cities, right?

And besides that — your god let what I posted happen. 9 and 10 year olds were unrecognizable because your all powerful deity just decided to take the eon off when it comes to making sure bad shit doesn’t happen.
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Kinsella said:
I mentioned God not religion.

But the majority of our modern moral notions like say universalistic egalitarianism, human rights, freedom of the individual and so on are a direct legacy of the latter. It would be ahistorical nonsense to claim otherwise.
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Massacring people throughout history is also a direct legacy of that so called moral teachings. Every single fecking day people die only because these stupid books exist. Anyone who continues to justify their existence because it gives a false meaning to their lives while they continue to be the source of absolute misery and suffering across the world hasn't a fecking right to talk about morals. Genuinely wish the worst for that entire lot.
 
Kinsella said:
I mentioned God not religion.

But the majority of our modern moral notions like say universalistic egalitarianism, human rights, freedom of the individual and so on are a direct legacy of the latter. It would be ahistorical nonsense to claim otherwise.
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As I said, religion subsumed morality. Modern religions are plagiarist at their core, morality is simply another aspect of that. It’s bafflingly narcissistic.

Cute parsing of words btw. Please explain how god is the only champion of morality.
 
Wibble said:
Yes other animals have social systems without any notion of god or religion. Ours is just a bit more sophisticated, nothing else. We aren't that special.
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Traits of morality existed within humans (or whatever they were called then) as far back as 50000BC.

This proves problematic as religious nuts believe that man & dinosaurs commingled far later than that.
 
Roane said:
I don't get the whole mysterious ways bit.

I'm Muslim and have studied Christianity in the past, but am a little rusty on it these days. However the whole "God works in mysterious ways" is a misquote of a poem written in the 18th century if I recall.

Can't remember the exact quotes now but biblically the ways of God are not meant to be "mysterious" to the believers (Christians in this case).
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It’s a short explanation for why god did things like the Book of Job.
 
Wibble said:
God's and religion arise to explain things we didn't understand e.g. earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, animas dying from communicable diseases, swarms of locusts etc. Now we have far better explanations but religion is socially entrenched and, I guess, many find the idea that there is something after life comforting.
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Can you expand on this.

I like to think I'm fairly religious and have spent a lot of time studying various aspects of religion. In my own experience I don't see much, if any, explanation of the things you mention.
 
Moby said:
Massacring people throughout history is also a direct legacy of that so called moral teachings. Every single fecking day people die only because these stupid books exist. Anyone who continues to justify their existence because it gives a false meaning to their lives while they continue to be the source of absolute misery and suffering across the world hasn't a fecking right to talk about morals.
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An interesting aside to that comes from the authors of the 'Encyclopedia of Wars' who documented the history of recorded warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars 123 have been classified to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare.

Moby said:
Genuinely wish the worst for that entire lot.
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That's a bit immoral.
 
Wibble said:
How can there be free will if a supernatural being has a plan for you and intervenes in people's lives? If there is free will because a god is non-interventionist what does he actually do?
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The answer is simple. You conceive God as having a plan that gives you free will and who therefore doesn't intervene to stop you exercising that free will. In this conception what God does is:

(a) Create life, the universe and everything.
(b) Include free will as part of that creation.
 
calodo2003 said:
Traits of morality existed within humans (or whatever they were called then) as far back as 50000BC.

This proves problematic as religious nuts believe that man & dinosaurs commingled far later than that.
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Come on now. Creationists suggesting that man and dinosaur commingled and thus labelling all religious folk as nuts is nuts
 
Roane said:
Come on now. Creationists suggesting that man and dinosaur commingled and thus labelling all religious folk as nuts is nuts
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Didn’t label all religious folks as nuts, I mentioned the nuts that are religious, in this case, creationists.
 
calodo2003 said:
Didn’t label all religious folks as nuts, I mentioned the nuts that are religious, in this case, creationists.
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Yeah fair enough. It didn't come across as that to me on first reading it.

Don't know if you saw my posts about the chuff chuff guy earlier? Yeah some loons exist. Loons gonna be loons and religion isn't the issue for me.
 
Wibble said:
How can there be free will if a supernatural being has a plan for you and intervenes in people's lives? If there is free will because a god is non-interventionist what does he actually do?
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One of the 6 pillar of faith in my religion is believe in Free Will and God's Will. How is that not a contradiction?
Well, the way I understand it, free will is a default and God's Will is just a spiritual/philosophical thing.
God's will is applied (usually) when bad things happened so we would not get too sad or depressed etc...
 
Roane said:
Yeah fair enough. It didn't come across as that to me on first reading it.

Don't know if you saw my posts about the chuff chuff guy earlier? Yeah some loons exist. Loons gonna be loons and religion isn't the issue for me.
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I did. That video was bizarre.
 
Kinsella said:
Many also find the idea that there's nothing after life comforting. ;)
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I don't find it comforting. I just live as if this is it.
Kinsella said:
You're underplaying it just a tad there, but fair enough.
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Not really. We obviously have complex social interactions but we also often massively underestimate the complexity of many animals social systems.

As usual Douglas Adams had a good take on it.

"Man has always assumed that he is more intelligent than dolphins because he has achieved so much--the wheel, New York, wars and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But, conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man -- for precisely the same reasons." Douglas Adams, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
 
I like religious people that dont force their beliefs into somebody else's throat and quoting things or pages or figures only they can understand. Like wtf are you even on about? I dont understand. Just stop.
 
GlastonSpur said:
The answer is simple. You conceive God as having a plan that gives you free will and who therefore doesn't intervene to stop you exercising that free will. In this conception what God does is:

(a) Create life, the universe and everything.
(b) Include free will as part of that creation.
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That sort of reasoning is what started me thinking that there was a flaw in the concept of a supreme supernatural being when I was a kid.
 
Karel Podolsky said:
One of the 6 pillar of faith in my religion is believe in Free Will and God's Will. How is that not a contradiction?
Well, the way I understand it, free will is a default and God's Will is just a spiritual/philosophical thing.
God's will is applied (usually) when bad things happened so we would not get too sad or depressed etc...
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I find the topics of free will and predestination fascinating. Something I continue to look into.

The Islamic explanation makes sense to me, but then that's what I've studied more and continue to study.
 
tenpoless said:
I like religious people that dont force their beliefs into somebody else's throat and quoting things or pages or figures only they can understand.
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My best mate is a priest. He doesn't try to change my mind and I don't try to change his. Seems to work well.
 
tenpoless said:
I like religious people that dont force their beliefs into somebody else's throat and quoting things or pages or figures only they can understand. Like wtf are you even on about? I dont understand. Just stop.
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I'm religious and tbf I get you. I feel the same way about people who take a notion and use it try and batter all religions. I feel like saying just stop.

From my own experiences though it's the non religious who usually start the conversation.
 
Roane said:
Can you expand on this.

I like to think I'm fairly religious and have spent a lot of time studying various aspects of religion. In my own experience I don't see much, if any, explanation of the things you mention.
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Look at the earliest religions and how they had gods for natural phenomena.
 
Kinsella said:
All of which the excludes the deist position, and proceeds on the premise that God should've made human beings even more unique than they already are...relative to other species in the animal kingdom.

And if there's no God, then that poses extremely difficult questions for the sustainability of any kind of moral basis/order at all.
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It wouldn't apply to deist positions and various religions which make no claims of omnipotence, etc. But then applying many other elements or aspects to such gods becomes more difficult. I'm not entirely sure why, say an absent creator, is either moral or worshipful, for instance.

As for the second point, I see no reason why the non existance of a god or gods has any bearing on either morality or order.
 
Wibble said:
My best mate is a priest. He doesn't try to change my mind and I don't try to change his. Seems to work well.
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My now ex, but was for 25 years, father in law is an ex trainee Catholic priest turned hardcore atheist. He always said stuff like "don't force religion down people throat" but always always instigated arguments.

In my personal life infond this to be the reality with people who don't believe. Be auee I am practising I'm always questioned.

Tbf though it's not just atheists and agnostics. I get same from Christian and Jewish folk at work etc. Yet when I answer I'm the one accused of "preaching".
 
Wibble said:
My best mate is a priest. He doesn't try to change my mind and I don't try to change his. Seems to work well.
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That is the way it should be. I wish people would stop acting like they were Age of Empire priests wololoing other people into their beliefs. And based on my experience, the more knowledgeable someone is when it comes into religion, the less likely they will force it on others. They have their peace and dont need others validation. I get along with them easily and they are often wise. Now the insecure ones on the other hand.....
 
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Carolina Red said:
It’s the whole “we aren’t smart enough to understand his plan” bit.
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Does it really say that? I'll have to revisit the book of Job.

I don't see it as "unclear" or "hard to understand", from what I remember. In a nutshell, in my own words, it was about a man who had everything then doesn't to be "tested". This notion is pretty clear (not maybe in my words) about life, creation, God etc. No mystery.
 
Two observations I've taken from this thread, or least the last number of pages, is that those most vehement against religion/God tend to be American posters railing (or rebelling perhaps) against a particularly protestant and evangelical conception of religion/God.

The other is more general and more of a feeling perhaps. And it's that many people on the anti-religion side seem to proceed on the premise that religious belief has either held humanity back or indeed perverted the course of human development. An interesting notion to say the least!
 
Roane said:
I'm religious and tbf I get you. I feel the same way about people who take a notion and use it try and batter all religions. I feel like saying just stop.

From my own experiences though it's the non religious who usually start the conversation.
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I am not very religious but Im not an atheist. But I try to never bring up religion whenever I talk because thats usually where the fun ends. And I feel like at this age if someone really wants to learn about something they can just find it all over the internet, including religion. Then if their heart is set on a particular religion they can start practicing, there really is no need to try and attempt to convert people. At least thats how it is to me anyway.
 
tenpoless said:
I like religious people that dont force their beliefs into somebody else's throat and quoting things or pages or figures only they can understand.
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It doesn't change much for me. A lot less obnoxious yes, but they are still a massive contributor to actual institutions across the world who have and continue to actively cause and support mass crimes, and none of these so called harmless religious people have ever raised a finger on anyone of their own faith or institutions for actively committing acts that are apparently sinful as per their own faith.

I have lost count of people who go on about 'we believe in god not religion' or 'we don't like going to temple/church/mosque' but barely any of these so called 'good people at heart' have ever tried to take one step to disintegrate these institutions, or call out their atrocities. Because when they were 2 they were brainwashed by their mum or their priest into never saying a single word that opposes ANYTHING that comes with their religion. There's literally a grown up in this thread who said if he said anything bad about Christianity he will have to spend eternity in hell. They give more importance to their fantasies than what is actually happening in the real world, every single fecking day.

If these people (not one or two in specific but on a larger scale) genuinely believed in being good decent human beings, there should have been mass movements by religious people opposing their own religion, their own centres or birthplaces of religion which are central to these institutions but are there? Are there any 'good christians' who have publicly taken opposition to the existence of the catholic church/pope/the core of their institutions that has been a source of crimes committed against children and what not. When you see such indifference towards atrocities that are committed by their own faith it's rather obvious to me there's nothing good or decent about them, they simply care more about their traditions and word of mouth that has passed down in their family or community than misery and suffering caused in the world on a mass scale.
 
Roane said:
Does it really say that? I'll have to revisit the book of Job.

I don't see it as "unclear" or "hard to understand", from what I remember. In a nutshell, in my own words, it was about a man who had everything then doesn't to be "tested". This notion is pretty clear (not maybe in my words) about life, creation, God etc. No mystery.
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It's not a very nice parable really. Don't try to figure shit out, fear me and shut it being broadly the gist of it. The mystery is not the myth itself but that Yahweh's motives are mysterious and not comprehendible to humans.

Which I think is sort of the point you were making in a post you made earlier.
 
MrMarcello said:
It's a false sense of moral superiority empowered upon them.
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Maybe just be perspective or even bias but I don't find that with religious people. I find the likes of Dawkins to be the epitome of what you've written.
 
Kinsella said:
Two observations I've taken from this thread, or least the last number of pages, is that those most vehement against religion/God tend to be American posters railing (or rebelling perhaps) against a particularly protestant and evangelical conception of religion/God.

The other is more general and more of a feeling perhaps. And it's that many people on the anti-religion side seem to proceed on the premise that religious belief has either held humanity back or indeed perverted the course of human development. An interesting notion to say the least!
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It most certainly has perverted the course of human development.
 
Roane said:
Maybe just be perspective or even bias but I don't find that with religious people. I find the likes of Dawkins to be the epitome of what you've written.
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You don't find any moral superiority in religious people? Only in very old former tenured professors? None of the people he debates?
 
Fingeredmouse said:
It's not a very nice parable really. Don't try to figure shit out, fear me and shut it being broadly the gist of it. The mystery is not the myth itself but that Yahweh's motives are mysterious and not comprehendible to humans.

Which I think is sort of the point you were making in a post you made earlier.
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As I said I will revisit it.
 
Kinsella said:
The other is more general and more of a feeling perhaps. And it's that many people on the anti-religion side seem to proceed on the premise that religious belief has either held humanity back or indeed perverted the course of human development. An interesting notion to say the least!
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You may not agree, but hardly a novel, controversial or difficult to get position.
 
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