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How should we proceed with the midfielders thread?

  • A single megathread

    Votes: 11 22.9%

  • 2 threads for central midfielders and for number 10s

    Votes: 11 22.9%

  • 3 threads for DM and B2B, for playmakers and for number 10s

    Votes: 20 41.7%

  • 4 threads for defensive MF, for MF playmakers, for goalscoring CMs and for number 10s

    Votes: 1 2.1%

  • 4 threads for defensive MF, for B2B, for MF playmakers and for number 10s

    Votes: 14 29.2%
  • Total voters
    48
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
It's just that the line between attacking B2B and a midfield playmaker is very thin. van Hanegem, Schweinsteiger, Modric and even Scholes who was famous for his late runs into box effectively cuts across both categories.
Click to expand...

We will certainly have border cases.

My inclination is to distinguish on technique and passing ability. Young Scholes was more of an attacking midfielder I think despite playing in a midfield two.

Modric lacks the physical presence and up and down engine to be an attacking B2B. Not that he lacked stamina, he just used it in another way. Modric midfield playmaker for me.

van Hanagem probably midfield playmaker too.

Bastian is going to hard to categorise whatever happens. He's similar in certain respects to Seedorf. I'd probably go though for Bastian attacking B2B.

Edit - you also have some very clear cases between midfield playmaker and attacking B2B.

Attacking B2B - Matthaus, Breitner, Robson, Neeskens

Midfield playmaker- Xavi, Luis Suarez, Pirlo
 
Thank feck am not arsed about getting into the Midfielders category discussion. Will be messy as feck :lol:
 
Please limit as many crossovers as possible.

I.e We don’t want Lothar Matthaus ranked #17th in a list.
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
Thank feck am not arsed about getting into the Midfielders category discussion. Will be messy as feck :lol:
Click to expand...

I think everyone is happy with DMs and defensive B2Bs, and possibly with 10s and attacking midfielders. It's the inbetween which is causing more problems
 
BIG DUNK said:
Please limit as many crossovers as possible.

I.e We don’t want Lothar Matthaus ranked #17th in a list.
Click to expand...

That's one reason to distinguish midfield playmakers and attacking B2Bs. Matthaus would win the latter but may come somewhat further down midfield playmakers.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Midfield playmakers (DLP & Attacking B2Bs) -

Defensive Midfielders (DMs and Defensive B2Bs) -

Attacking midfielders (#10)
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Yeah I like much prefer that idea to having four categories for a central midfielder. Keeping it simple is the way to go imo.

So that would be two categories for CM’s and then one category for #10’s.
 
@Edgar Allan Pillow

With the three fold division where would you put players like Lampard and Yaya Toure? I'm not saying they'll be anywhere on my list but wondered where you would out them

Do you intend to attacking mids in with the 10s? e.g Iniesta, Gascoigne
 
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Physiocrat said:
@Edgar Allan Pillow

With the three fold division where would you put players like Lampard and Yaya Toure? I'm not saying they'll be anywhere on my list but wondered where you would out them

Do you intend to attacking mids in with the 10s? e.g Iniesta, Gascoigne
Click to expand...
Lampard, Yaya and Iniesta are all playmaking CMs. Gazza would be in #10 list.

If you need further clarity in a 4 way breakup, I'd suggest.

- DLP (Pirlo, Suarez, Falcao)
- B2B / CM (offensive and defensive) (Matthaus, Keane, Neeskens, Xaviesta)
- DM (Makelele, Stiles, Cerezo, Simeone)
- #10 (Maradona, Gascoigne)

The B2B CM would include Xavi, Iniesta, Neeskens etc.

I'd still go further and exclude likes of Cryuff, Di Stefano and Pele from midfielders discussion. They can go in playmaking Forwards section.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Midfield playmakers (DLP & Attacking B2Bs) - Xavi, Iniesta, Spanish Suarez, PR Falcao, Pirlo, Masopust, van Hanegem, Neeskens etc
Defensive Midfielders (DMs and Defensive B2Bs) - Makelele, Keane, Vieira, Cerezo, Simeone etc
Attacking midfielders (#10)

Matthaus transcends both defensive and attacking B2B lists, but I'd put him in the attacking bucked simply because that's the role he won the Balon d'Or in.
Click to expand...
Nice - basically #6, #8 and #10.
 
Physiocrat said:
@Edgar Allan Pillow

With the three fold division where would you put players like Lampard and Yaya Toure? I'm not saying they'll be anywhere on my list but wondered where you would out them

Do you intend to attacking mids in with the 10s? e.g Iniesta, Gascoigne
Click to expand...
Lamps is an 8 all day long. Toure is a special case who I don't think we should tie up our categories in knots for. In effect he had different roles and positions at Olympiakos, Barcelona and City.

Gazza is an 8 too. Even renamed himself as and wrote a book called 'G8'.
 
Gio said:
Lamps is an 8 all day long. Toure is a special case who I don't think we should tie up our categories in knots for. In effect he had different roles and positions at Olympiakos, Barcelona and City.

Gazza is an 8 too. Even renamed himself as and wrote a book called 'G8'.
Click to expand...

Lamps is definitely an 8. The reason I mention him is that having him in a category called midfield playmakers makes no sense. That's why I suggest attacking B2B/ goalscoring 8s to fit players like Lamps, Yaya (City version) and Ballack.

Gascoigne is also an 8 but very different style wise to Lampard or Matthaus so that's why I'd put him with the attacking midfielders/10s.
 
Edgar's proposal looks good for the most part, but I'm not really happy with pairing DLPs and attacking B2Bs (say, Pirlo/Alonso & Lampard/Gerrard). They don't have much to do with each other positionally, or in their traits and functions.

Looking back at the old system, I guess the main reason for a fourth midfielder category was the unique role of DLPs. They play deep, but are no DMs. They are genuine playmakers, but entirely different to a #10. The only halfways related players are modern playmaking #8s like Xavi & Modric, hence them sharing a category.

I think the idea of the four category system can be boiled down to this:

Defensive & offensive physical players

Deep & offensive playmakers

If it's possible to reduce that to three categories it should be done, but I'm not sure yet how.
 
A category that includes both Keane and Iniesta is not a good category.
 
I think the separation should be mostly based on the playmaking traits. But there are so many overlapping and hardly defined players!
 
Synco said:
I think the idea of the four category system can be boiled down to this:

Defensive & offensive physical players

Deep & offensive playmakers

If it's possible to reduce that to three categories it should be done, but I'm not sure yet how.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much my view. It would be great to reduce it to 3 categories but I just don't see how. However you slice it one type of player is in the wrong category
 
Playmakers: Xavi, Didi, Pirlo, Falcão, Suarez, Schuster etc.
B2B & defending ones: Matthäus, Rijkaard, Neeskens, Keane, Breitner etc.

You can separate defensive midfielders into their own category, but most of the great ones had most of the traits of true central midfielders and often played higher.
Obviously it's weird to discount, say, Breitner's passing or Falcão's workrate, but this looks like the best choice for me.

A separate category for the #10's — even though each number 10 is different. Maradona, Pelé, Zico, Platini, perhaps even Di Stefano/Cruyff (I'll think about those two).
 
Just do two (or three at most) categories for midfielders and sort any borderlines before the voting opens. Too many splits and its going to be too subjective and weird.

  • Holding Mids (DM and B2B)
  • CM ("playmakers" and "all around")
  • No.10s (or Attacking Mids)
 
#6 is a given as is #10.

Problem lies within classifying those defensive B2Bs, playmaking #8s, playmaking #6s, Redondo and Gascoigne/Iniesta etc.

I'd propose

#6s - Deschamps, Varela, Stielike, Makelele, Goncalves, Dunga, Davids (contentious), etc
Playmaking CMs - Didi, Modric, Pirlo, Xavi, Scholes, Gazza, Redondo (contentious), van Hanegem, Schuster, Falcao, Suarez
B2Bs - Keane, Bremner, Matthäus, Lampard, Toure, Souness, Schweini, Ballack, Neeskens, Mackay, Essien
AMs/#10 - Platini, Zico, Iniesta, Giresse, Möller etc


Bunk the offensive and defensive B2Bs together and set a separate one for the playmaking CMs (regardless of whether it's a Pirlo/Guardiola or Xavi/Netzer).
 
Joga Bonito said:
#6s - Deschamps, Varela, Stielike, Makelele, Goncalves, Dunga, Davids (contentious), etc
Playmaking CMs - Didi, Modric, Pirlo, Xavi, Scholes, Gazza, Redondo (contentious), van Hanegem, Schuster, Falcao, Suarez
B2Bs - Keane, Bremner, Matthäus, Lampard, Toure, Souness, Schweini, Ballack, Neeskens, Mackay, Essien
AMs/#10 - Platini, Zico, Iniesta, Giresse, Möller etc
Click to expand...

This is why Four is too many categories. I don't like how you shoehorn any of the bolded players. Pirlo for instance was never really a CM to me. He was an AM early and a DLP/6 late.
The simplest and best is really to just stick with 6,8,10s.

For some players like Pirlo, Scholes and Schuster the best way to do it is have an (early) and (late) version in two different categories.
 
Playmakers are playmakers and are rated for creativity, passing influence in running the game etc. So see no need to distinguish between Pirlo, Xaviesta, Scholes, Gerson, Didi or Neeskens here. Even Lampard and Matthaus fall in this category.

DMs and Defensive B2Bs are again primarily focused on the defensive side of the game. Makelele, Keane, Stiles etc fall by default in here.

Matthaus, Schuster, Yaya are handful who can straddle both categories and it's ok to rate them in both.
 
Or alternatively we can rate them by attributes.

Every player gets rated out of 20 for offensive and Defensive contribution each.

Example:

Player (off+def) = Tot
  1. L. Matthaus (17+17) = 34
  2. Xavi (18+14) = 32
  3. Iniesta (18+14) = 32
  4. Neeskens (16+15) = 31
  5. Pirlo (18+10) = 28
  6. Scholes (17+13) = 30
harms totals up the scores above and comes up with overall ratings.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Playmakers are playmakers and are rated for creativity, passing influence in running the game etc. So see no need to distinguish between Pirlo, Xaviesta, Scholes, Gerson, Didi or Neeskens here. Even Lampard and Matthaus fall in this category.
Click to expand...
Not really.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
This is why Four is too many categories. I don't like how you shoehorn any of the bolded players. Pirlo for instance was never really a CM to me. He was an AM early and a DLP/6 late.
The simplest and best is really to just stick with 6,8,10s.

For some players like Pirlo, Scholes and Schuster the best way to do it is have an (early) and (late) version in two different categories
Click to expand...
I'm sure there will be massive shoehorning no matter the final system, it's inevitable when putting reality into neatly divided categories. If we go with 6/8/10 it will be the same. I'd say we should just accept that and not try to do too much justice to individual players.

One underlying theme in these debates (maybe even the central one) is position vs function. I think players should be primarily grouped for their function. A #6 like Pirlo has much more in common with a #8 like Xavi than with a #6 like Casemiro.
harms said:
I think the separation should be mostly based on the playmaking traits. But there are so many overlapping and hardly defined players!
Click to expand...
Agree with both. As for the second part: I don't think we have a choice but to embrace shoehorning, and my preferred method would be to define one category for inbetweeners that roughly fits. (Except for the few who have been all time greats in two totally distinct positions, like Beckenbauer, Desailly, Breitner.)
 
Synco said:
One underlying theme in these debates (maybe even the central one) is position vs function. I think players should be primarily grouped for their function. A #6 like Pirlo has much more in common with a #8 like Xavi than with a #6 like Casemiro.
Click to expand...
Absolutely.
 
One list for all midfielders. (Playmakers, B2B and DM)

Criteria : Their influence and importance to a team in general

Would you rather have a Pirlo or Iniesta in your team? You choose.
 
What's wrong with the xtraimmortal categories?

Let's not overcomplicate this. There might be a few contentious names, but on a broader level it should work.

What is more important is clearly defining which set of players is eligible for which category, which was missed for the CBs one. As long as that is the case we are good.
 
Make any changes in these that you feel like and let's rank them. This has clubbed DM/B2Bs. And separate cats for playmakers and #10s.

The 100 Greatest Defensive Midfielders of All-Time

1. Lothar Matthaeus (Germany)
2. Frank Rijkaard (Holland)
3. Jozsef Bozsik (Hungary)
4. Paul Breitner (Germany)
5. Ernst Ocwirk (Austria)
6. Johan Neeskens (Holland)
7. Luis Monti (Argentina)
8. Steven Gerrard (England)
9. Fernando Redondo (Argentina)
10. Marco Tardelli (Italy)
11. Danny Blanchflower (Northern Ireland)
12. Jose Pirri (Spain)
13. Obdulio Varela (Uruguay)
14. Bryan Robson (England)
15. Jean Tigana (France)
16. Igor Netto (Soviet Union)
17. Patrick Vieira (France)
18. Osvaldo Ardiles (Argentina)
19. Billy Bremner (Scotland)
20. Néstor Rossi (Argentina)
21. Roy Keane (Ireland Republic)
22. Edgar Davids (Holland)
23. Danilo Alvim (Brazil)
24. Xabi Alonso (Spain)
25. Toninho Cerezo (Brazil)
26. Graeme Souness (Scotland)
27. Dave Mackay (Scotland)
28. Zito (Brazil)
29. Horst Szymaniak (Germany)
30. Josef Smistik (Austria)
31. Michael Ballack (Germany)
32. Valery Voronin (Soviet Union)
33. Stefan Effenberg (Germany)
34. Zlatko Cajkovski (Yugoslavia)
35. Uli Stielike (Germany)
36. Paul Pogba (France)
37. Wilfreid Van Moer (Belgium)
38. Arie Haan (Holland)
39. Giacomo Bulgarelli (Italy)
40. Soren Lerby (Denmark)
41. Josep Guardiola (Spain)
42. Rainer Bonhof (Germany)
43. Jose Carlos Bauer (Brazil)
44. Claude Makelele (France)
45. Emerson Ferreira (Brazil)
46. Javier Mascherano (Argentina)
47. Nestor Goncalves (Uruguay)
48. Didier Deschamps (France)
49. Romeo Benetti (Italy)
50. Emlyn Hughes (England)
51. Duncan Edwards (England)
52. Mikael Essien (Ghana)
53. Karel Pesek Kada (Czechoslovakia)
54. Manuel Fleitas Solich (Paraguay)
55. Carlos Dunga (Brazil)
56. Svatopluk Pluskal (Czechoslovakia)
57. Bastian Schweinsteiger (Germany)
58. Alemao (Brazil)
59. Stefan Bozhkov (Bulgaria)
60. Andreas Kupfer (Germany)
61. Karl Koller (Austria)
62. Clodoaldo (Brazil)
63. Mauro Silva (Brazil)
64. Sergio Busquets (Spain)
65. Antonio Rattín (Argentina)
66. Ludwig Goldbrunner (Germany)
67. Wilson Piazza (Brazil)
68. Walter Nausch (Austria)
69. Luis Fernandez (France)
70. Horst Eckel (Germany)
71. Bok De Korver (Holland)
72. John Greig (Scotland)
73. Olaf Thon (Germany)
74. Diego Simeone (Argentina)
75. Esteban Cambiasso (Argentina)
76. Nils Middelboe (Denmark)
77. Willy Van Der Kerkhof (Holland)
78. Michele Andreolo (Uruguay)
79. David Meiklejohn (Scotland)
80. Yaya Toure (Ivory Coast)
81. Yuri Voinov (Soviet Union)
82. Aron Winter (Holland)
83. Herbert Wimmer (Germany)
84. Paolo Sousa (Portugal)
85. Glenn Stromberg (Sweden)
86. Salvatore Bagni (Italy)
87. Americo Gallego (Argentina)
88. Laszlo Boloni (Romania)
89. Ante Zanetic (Yugoslavia)
90. Ciriaco Sforza (Switzerland)
91. Jose Velasquez (Peru)
92. Wim Jansen (Holland)
93. Ruben Marcos (Chile)
94. Daniele De Rossi (Italy)
95. Ernest Needham (England)
96. Arturo Vidal (Chile)
97. Zeljko Perusic (Yugoslavia)
98. Renato Zaccarelli (Italy)
99. Paul Ince (England)
100. Demetrio Albertini (Italy)


The 100 Greatest Playmakers of All-Time

1. Zinedine Zidane (France)
2. Bobby Charlton (England)
3. Gianni Rivera (Italy)
4. Didi (Brazil)
5. Rivellino (Brazil)
6. Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
7. Luis Suarez Miramontes (Spain)
8. Andres Iniesta (Spain)
9. Xavi Hernandez (Spain)
10. Falcao (Brazil)
11. Josef Masopust (Czechoslovakia)
12. Willem Van Hanegem (Netherlands)
13. Antonio Sastre (Argentina)
14. Wolfgang Overath (Germany)
15. Gunther Netzer (Germany)
16. Mario Coluna (Portugal)
17. Gerhard Hanappi (Austria)
18. Socrates (Brazil)
19. Kazimierz Deyna (Poland)
20. Luka Modric (Croatia)
21. Juan Roman Riquelme (Argentina)
22. Nils Liedholm (Sweden)
23. Alain Giresse (France)
24. Ricardo Bochini (Argentina)
25. Bernd Schuster (Germany)
26. Fritz Szepan (Germany
27. Andrea Pirlo (Italy)
28. Gerson (Brazil)
29. Frank Lampard (England)
30. Clarence Seedorf (Holland)
31. Rui Costa (Portugal)
32. Giancarlo Antognoni (Italy)
33. Johnny Giles (Ireland Republic)
34. Herbert Prohaska (Austria)
35. Dragoslav Sekularac (Yugoslavia)
36. Glenn Hoddle (England)
37. Cesar Cueto (Peru)
38. Ademir Da Guia (Brazil)
39. Jim Baxter (Scotland)
40. Liam Brady (Ireland Republic)
41. Nicolae Dobrin (Romania)
42. Johnny Haynes (England)
43. Paul Scholes (England)
44. Toni Kroos (Germany)
45. Wesley Sneijder (Holland)
46. Mezut Ozil (Germany)
47. Juan Sebastian Veron (Argentina)
48. Cesc Fabregas (Spain)
49. Felix Magath (Germany)
50. Gordon Strachan (Scotland)
51. Rai (Brazil)
52. Dirceu Guimaraes (Brazil)
53. Jurica Jerkovic (Yugoslavia)
54. Dino Sani (Brazil)
55. Norberto Alonso (Argentina)
56. Luis Enrique (Spain)
57. Deco (Portugal)
58. Enzo Scifo (Belgium)
59. Janos Gorocs (Hungary)
60. Martin Peters (England)
61. Vladimir Petrovic (Yugoslavia)
62. Zvonimir Boban (Yugoslavia)
63. Alex James (Scotland)
64. Puck Van Heel (Holland)
65. Bo Larsson (Sweden)
66. Jose Travassos (Portugal)
67. Gaizka Mendieta (Spain)
68. Paul Gascoigne (England)
69. Branko Oblak (Yugoslavia)
70. Dirceu Lopez (Brazil)
71. Luis Del Sol (Spain)
72. Dimitar Yakimov (Bulgaria)
73. Miguel Brindisi (Argentina)
74. Leonid Buryak (Soviet Union)
75. Iosif Petschovsky (Romania)
76. Carlos Valderrama (Colombia)
77. Fulvio Bernardini (Italy)
78. Mimis Domazos (Greece)
79. Francisco Valdes (Chile)
80. Abedi Pele (Ghana)
81. Joseph Jurion (Belgium)
82. Lajos Detari (Hungary)
83. Kees Rijvers (Holland)
84. Jimmy Mcilroy (Northern Ireland)
85. Krassimir Balakov (Bulgaria)
86. Kevin De Bruyne (Belgium)
87. Illie Balaci (Romania)
88. Pablo Bengoechea (Uruguay)
89. Dragan Stojkovic (Yugoslavia)
90. Ruben Paz (Uruguay)
91. Alan Ball (England)
92. Fyordor Cherenkov (Soviet Union)
93. Jorge Burruchaga (Argentina)
94. David Kipiani (Soviet Union)
95. Colin Bell (England)
96. Asgier Sigurvinsson (Iceland)
97. Oleksander Zavarov (Soviet Union)
98. Robert Prosinecki (Yugoslavia)
99. Juninho Pernambucano (Brazil)
100. Julio Cesar Uribe (Peru)



The 100 Greatest Advanced Midfielders of All-Time

1. Diego Maradona (Argentina)
2. Johan Cruyff (Holland)
3. Alfredo Di Stefano (Argentina)
4. Michel Platini (France)
5. Zico (Brazil)
6. Zizinho (Brazil)
7. Jose Manuel Moreno (Argentina)
8. Ruud Gullit (Holland)
9. Raymond Kopa (France)
10. Ronaldinho (Brazil)
11. Fritz Walter (Germany)
12. Rivaldo (Brazil)
13. Laszlo Kubala (Hungary)
14. Sandro Mazzola (Italy)
15. Teofilo Cubillas (Peru)
16. Adolfo Pedernera (Argentina)
17. Omar Sivori (Argentina)
18. Enzo Francescoli (Uruguay)
19. Gheorghe Hagi (Romania)
20. Hector Scarone (Uruguay)
21. Juan Alberto Schiaffino (Uruguay)

22. Nandor Hidegkuti (Hungary)
23. Francesco Totti (Italy)
24. Kevin Keegan (England)
25. Valentino Mazzola (Italy)
26. Kenny Dalglish (Scotland)
27. Zbigniew Boniek (Poland)
28. Kaka (Brazil)
29. Jair Da Rosa (Brazil)
30. Pedro Rocha (Uruguay)
31. Bernard Vukas (Yugoslavia)
32. Ernest Kuzorra (Germany)
33. Gyorgy Orth (Hungary)
34. Helmut Haller (Germany)
35. Dejan Savicevic (Yugoslavia)
36. Rinaldo Martino (Argentina)
37. Safet Susic (Yugoslavia)
38. Jan Ceulemans (Belgium)
39. Allan Simonsen (Denmark)
40. Larbi Benbarek (France)
41. Hristo Bonev (Bulgaria)
42. Andreas Moller (Germany)
43. Thomas Muller (Germany)
44. Giovanni Ferrari (Italy)
45. Tibor Nyilasi (Hungary)
46. Vaclav Pilat (Czechoslovakia)
47. Roberto Mancini (Italy)
48. Karl Decker (Austria)
49. Adolfo Baloncieri (Italy)
50. Roger Piantoni (France)
51. Gunnar Gren (Sweden)
52. Rajko Mitic (Yugoslavia)
53. Youri Djorkaeff (France)
54. Gianfranco Zola (Italy)
55. Julio Cesar Romero (Paraguay)
56. Ivor Allchurch (Wales)
57. Hector Rial (Argentina)
58. Alberto Terry (Peru)
59. Jari Litmanen (Finland)
60. Roberto Porta (Uruguay)
61. Antonin Panenka (Czechoslovakia)
62. Manuel Ferreira (Argentina)
63. Hugo Sotil (Peru)
64. Angel Romano (Uruguay)
65. Max Abegglen (Switzerland)
66. Willy Van De Kuijlen (Holland)
67. Karl Aage Hansen (Denmark)
68. Edvaldo Dida (Brazil)
69. Mehmet Scholl (Germany)
70. Friedrich Gschweidl (Austria)
71. Luliu Baratky (Romania)
72. Ariel Ortega (Argentina)
73. Raich Carter (England)
74. Henning Jensen (Denmark)
75. Valentin Ivanov (Soviet Union)
76. Ihor Belanov (Soviet Union)
77. Vicente De La Mata (Argentina)
78. Ermindo Onega (Argentina)
79. Leivinha (Brazil)
80. Gyula Bodola (Romania)
81. David Platt (England)
82. Norberto Mendez (Argentina)
83. Aurelio Gonzalez (Paraguay)
84. Humberto Maschio (Argentina)
85. Josep Samitier (Spain)
86. Hans Jurgen Kreische (East Germany)
87. Andrey Ashavin (Russia)
88. Ernesto Grillo (Argentina)
89. Walter Gomez (Uruguay)
90. Anibal Ciocca (Uruguay)
91. Wilf Mannion (England)
92. Peter Palotas (Hungary)
93. Nikola Kotkov (Bulgaria)
94. Billy Walker (England)
95. James Rodriguez (Colombia)
96. Titus Ozon (Romania)
97. Bobby Walker (Scotland)
98. Johann Horvath (Austria)
99. Lucian Brychczy (Poland)
100. Jan Vanik (Czechoslovakia)
 
I'd definitely put Rivera, Laudrup and Zidane to the same category as Maradona, Zico and Platini.

Something like that?

#10s

1. Zinedine Zidane (France)
2. Bobby Charlton (England)
3. Gianni Rivera (Italy)
4. Didi (Brazil)
5. Rivellino (Brazil)
6. Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
7. Luis Suarez Miramontes (Spain) - young
8. Andres Iniesta (Spain)
15. Gunther Netzer (Germany)
18. Socrates (Brazil)
19. Kazimierz Deyna (Poland)
21. Juan Roman Riquelme (Argentina)
22. Nils Liedholm (Sweden)
23. Alain Giresse (France)
24. Ricardo Bochini (Argentina)
31. Rui Costa (Portugal)
38. Ademir Da Guia (Brazil)
46. Mezut Ozil (Germany)
57. Deco (Portugal)
58. Enzo Scifo (Belgium)
76. Carlos Valderrama (Colombia)
85. Krassimir Balakov (Bulgaria)
92. Fyordor Cherenkov (Soviet Union)
1. Diego Maradona (Argentina)
4. Michel Platini (France)
5. Zico (Brazil)
9. Raymond Kopa (France)
10. Ronaldinho (Brazil)
15. Teofilo Cubillas (Peru)
17. Omar Sivori (Argentina)
19. Gheorghe Hagi (Romania)
21. Juan Alberto Schiaffino (Uruguay)
22. Nandor Hidegkuti (Hungary)
23. Francesco Totti (Italy)
26. Kenny Dalglish (Scotland)
28. Kaka (Brazil)
31. Bernard Vukas (Yugoslavia)
35. Dejan Savicevic (Yugoslavia)
37. Safet Susic (Yugoslavia)
38. Jan Ceulemans (Belgium)
42. Andreas Moller (Germany)
54. Gianfranco Zola (Italy)
59. Jari Litmanen (Finland)
87. Andrey Ashavin (Russia)
 
harms said:
I'd definitely put Rivera, Laudrup and Zidane to the same category as Maradona, Zico and Platini.
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Yep.

Reserve the playmakers one for DLPs, CMs or no. 8 kinda playmakers like Suarez etc.

#10s all go together. But the catch is #10 will have midfield inclined and forward inclined #10s. How to do you say Zico and Pele should be in different categories for example. Cantona was a #10 as was Rui Costa but definitely different inclinations.
 
Moby said:
Yep.

Reserve the playmakers one for DLPs, CMs or no. 8 kinda playmakers like Suarez etc.

#10s all go together. But the catch is #10 will have midfield inclined and forward inclined #10s. How to do you say Zico and Pele should be in different categories for example. Cantona was a #10 as was Rui Costa but definitely different inclinations.
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Yeah, I thought about that. I guess Cantonas, Bergkamps and Pelés go there as well. But you'd have to separate the likes of Rummenigge, Gullit etc. who liked to play in similar zones but weren't really a #10. Forwards in xtraimmortal's definition, I think (but we'll take the more playmaking ones to the #10 list).
 
Moby said:
Reserve the playmakers one for DLPs, CMs or no. 8 kinda playmakers like Suarez etc.

#10s all go together. But the catch is #10 will have midfield inclined and forward inclined #10s. How to do you say Zico and Pele should be in different categories for example. Cantona was a #10 as was Rui Costa but definitely different inclinations.
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Sounds good to me in general. I think the distinction between #10 midfielders and playmaking forwards should apply, and borderline cases like Zico have to be sorted up front.

Players I'd count as "playmaking forwards" are those who at least partly played as a winger (Messi, Ronaldinho) or CF/F9 (Pele, Messi, Cruyff, Totti). So a central, not-really-striker playmaker like Zico would narrowly fall into midfielder bracket for me, together with Maradona etc., even if he was a main goalscorer. But it's margins and can be seen differently as well.

The discussion kind of goes in circles, btw: I remember having DM/B2B together at first (so basically your system), and the decision to seperate them was a result of quite a few people taking issue with that.

Edit: Removed Bergkamp
 
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In my view these are the central midfield categories-

DM
Defensive B2B
Attacking B2B
DLP
Central Midfield playmaker
Goalscoring 8
Creative 8s
10s

I'm pretty confident that every central midfielder could pretty neatly fit into these categories. The problem is that is way too many categories for reasonable rating. If you go for average zones then you end up with DMs and DLPs together (Makalele and Pirlo), and Goalscoring 8s and Creative 8s together (Lampard and Gascoigne). Just rating on creativity or physicality produces an odd situation where Makalele is in the same category as Paul Breitner, and Pirlo with Platini.

I see no reasonable way to put them into three categories. I suppose the least bad would be the physical and creative split:

DMs, all B2B and goalscoring 8s
DLP, Midfield playmaker, Creative 8s
10s

Looking at that though maybe a single list would be better.
 
you are obsessed with goalscoring 8s :lol:

Physiocrat said:
In my view these are the central midfield categories-

DM
Defensive B2B

DLP
Central Midfield playmaker

Goalscoring 8
Creative 8s
Attacking B2B

10s
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id probably have it like this though maybe id merge n10s with creative forwards or creative 8s.
 
Moby said:
It's an interesting one though I don't need a separate category for that.

Lampard is a clear case. He's not a DM/B2B/Playmaker/Creative CM/#10 of any variety.
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it is but there is no way that should be a separate category, i mean imagine the lists after top 10....reckon players that missed out from top 20 in other categories would be class above the bottom half of this one.
 
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