Honestly it's so dehumanising, but I just struggle to sit by idly while these things go unchecked.
Raheem Sterling
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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Honestly it's so dehumanising, but I just struggle to sit by idly while these things go unchecked.
They all have tattoos that contain guns. Sterling's is a gun. Plus they are all virtual nobodies in the football world, mid level PL players at best. Sterling is one of England's great hopes.
And yes. I'm going to quite confidently say anyone who thinks its a good idea to tattoo an assault rifle down their leg isn't the brightest.
It's 2018, the problem of stories being released with a total lack of genuine evidence to support them is hardly something which is unique. I'm not 'excusing the media', I'm merely pointing out that journalists really don't require much evidence to run with the story, tabloid press in particular is extremely prone to run rumours, using carefully chosen language in order to avoid a law suit. Players like Rooney in the past have actually gone against certain papers because of stories which were entirely untrue, it happens across the board. They were likely very aware that a story about a player having 8 kids would have generated a shit ton of clicks, so whatever flimsy evidence 'our sources suggest' they had for it was considered enough.
I didn't resort to making things up, I made a very feasible suggestion about how the story could have originated. Usually with shit rumours like this, it's a 'friend of the family' coming forward trying to make a few hundred quid. I've already stated that I think that it's possible racism was at play when they decided to run with the story based on limited evidence, but equally plenty of stories with very little evidence get ran by the tabloid press all of the time without sinister motivations behind the scenes. I'm not interested in being a contrarian, that's just the way I view things, plenty of others in this thread seem to have a similar outlook on it. You're acting like it's a fringe opinion when it isn't.
I care far too little to have seen any of the stories about the Royals, so I really can't offer anything there, it's perfectly possible you're right in that respect. I really don't remember Sterling coming under any particular media scrutiny prior to his move from Liverpool though, I'll have to look back at some of the articles written about him but I do seem to remember the whole 'racist coverage' controversy only really coming about post-City move.
to be fair I have no problem with his tattoo's it his body, I find it more weird that someone who's father was shot dead would actually want a tattoo of a gun placed on them.
We'll never know the answer to that one unless Kane goes out and does exactly that. My guess is that he wouldn't get half as much shit as Sterling got though.
However, here is a link to an article about a footballer other than Sterling who got a gun tattoo and the difference in the tone of the reporting is there for all to see, despite the fact that the story was in the very same newspaper which gave Sterling pelters for it:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...eno-shows-huge-tattoo-monkey-holding-gun.html
Drivel usually is spoken with utter confidence.
I doubt he's referring to the general public here - I'm guessing he means some of the journalists, and I'm pretty sure there was one negative article in the Daily Mail which, lo and behold, actually referred to Sterling as being "Jamaican-born"
You kinda are excusing the media by insisting that it's normal for them to report stories with no evidence, normalising their behaviour leads to the situation which we have now. More people need to hold them to task, but instead we're happy to insist that this comes with the territory of British Media.
I believe Sterling or more likely his representatives went to court over the multiple kids stories because they've disappeared from general publication - and I think that fed into him receiving special treatment from the press - and reporting on him doing mundane tasks.
What I think you're missing with a lot of these stories is the language written in them is usually laced with undertones of racism, making references to his money and how much he earns, referring to his 'long suffering girlfriend', 'footie idiot', 'raised amongst gangs in Jamaica', 'likely to have sold drugs to keep up with teammates'
It's not just the fact that he gets written about, its the tone and underlying impression you get from those stories.
If the media reported on 'Sterling, one of England's best players was seen living his life with his family on Thursday', you wouldn't get this ire - but it's everything combined together.
You did make things up because you used a suggestion that you made up based on an educational guess of how other rumours are made - but you still made it up. If you can't agree that you made that up, then we can just agree to disagree because we really won't get far if you don't even want to admit that.
Believe me, that gutter rag has been desperately trying to get back onside with Liverpool FC, Liverpool fans, and the city of Liverpool in general for years mate. Personally, and I know this is going off topic from the Sterling stuff, I'm glad that the The Scum continues to fail miserably on that score.
It is normal, that's the situation! The tabloid press can absolutely get away with that in this country, and yes it's a complete disgrace. I don't condone it at all and find it utterly distasteful, but there is very little I can do to change the way the media operate in this country. All I've insisted on is that I don't believe that the racial element is as prevalent as you or others do, I'm saying that the tabloid press will latch on to absolutely anything, regardless of ethnicity. That's not to say that race isn't a factor at all, I just disagree over the extent to which it is. If I had the power to hold the British Media to task I absolutely would, in a perfect world it would experience a major shake up.
Again, I do agree that plenty of people in the media seem to have had a problem with Sterling. There's clearly a narrative that they've stuck to and a lot of the press about him has been excessively negative. It's just that I'm not sure how much of a motivation racism is for that negative reporting, when compared to the circumstances in which he left Liverpool.
I just made a suggestion about how the story could have come about, I didn't claim it to be the truth. So yes, I made up a potential origin for the rumour, but at no point did I claim it to be fact.
It's a huge shame you feel that way, we might disagree on things but I certainly don't want you to feel dehumanised. If that's how this debate is making you feel then perhaps it's best I exit, as it really isn't worth creating those kind of feelings.
It isn't that I think I have the right to define what is racist, but simply that I don't believe that white people can't have an educated opinion on racial issues.
It's not my 'default assumption' about anything, it's just my personal view on this particular case. I also haven't said that there aren't any examples of racism, just that fundamentally I think the way Sterling has been treated in the press is not primarily down to his ethnicity. That's not how I view the situation, others clearly see it differently and that is absolutely fair.
I don't post much but reading some comments in this thread has reaffirmed my opinion that unless one is an ethnic minority within a country it is truly difficult to understand the effect's of racism.
Forget the name calling abuse shouted but the psychological effect it has on ones daily encounters, that silent thought at the back of your head "could it be because of my race". The frustration at knowing there is a less likely chance you may fulfill your potential because you don't fit a certain profile.
It's entirely plausible that there was no racial undertone regarding the newspaper examples Sterling pull-up (Foden & Adarabioyo) or regarding his treatment by the media but can one actually blame him and others for thinking so? Centuries of indoctrination (White>Black) has created this perception and feeling so naturally when a black person "feels" they are being treated differently from a white person without any concrete reason, race comes to there mind due to the history and experiences of others, even if there was no racial intention whatsoever. Whilst it is difficult to prove outright "racism" in this case, there is definitely a subconscious bias by society in general not just the media.
Forget the name calling abuse shouted but the psychological effect it has on ones daily encounters, that silent thought at the back of your head "could it be because of my race". The frustration at knowing there is a less likely chance you may fulfill your potential because you don't fit a certain profile.
It's entirely plausible that there was no racial undertone regarding the newspaper examples Sterling pull-up (Foden & Adarabioyo) or regarding his treatment by the media but can one actually blame him and others for thinking so? Centuries of indoctrination (White>Black) has created this perception and feeling so naturally when a black person "feels" they are being treated differently from a white person without any concrete reason, race comes to there mind due to the history and experiences of others, even if there was no racial intention whatsoever. Whilst it is difficult to prove outright "racism" in this case, there is definitely a subconscious bias by society in general not just the media.
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What is so utterly depressing is the sheer number of articles and the cumulative effect of same
https://www.scooptrend.com/2018/12/...-calculated-media-attacks-on-raheem-sterling/
To get into arguments over one specific article, such as the tattoo, is to fall into the racist's trap which is to argue about one of the easier to defend stories which then somehow justifies all the other stories.
https://www.scooptrend.com/2018/12/...-calculated-media-attacks-on-raheem-sterling/
To get into arguments over one specific article, such as the tattoo, is to fall into the racist's trap which is to argue about one of the easier to defend stories which then somehow justifies all the other stories.
If I had a nickel for every time I said "feck this" and deleted a detailed post 2 paragraphs in...
This is certainly true and I've seen a number of white posters on forum site alone who have profound views on racism. The issue I see on this site regularly is the patronising dismissal of the views of minorities on the subject. Not saying you’ve done that here but given your eagerness to dismiss the reporting on the number of children he has, a well-known stereo-type about Caribbean men in particular, as simply an issue of bad reporting makes it clear that you haven’t experienced the issues black people and minorities face with under cover racism every day. And whilst that’s not your fault, it comes across as a lack of empathy and it shows that maybe you should take heed of what the likes of @villain are discussing. She, myself, Sterling and others are speaking from experience, this isn’t something that’s been plucked out of thin air.
It's not though? Unless I'm reading this completely wrong he said it himself. It's because he shoots with his right foot. That is his "shooter", it's a bit stupid and childish but each to their own.
It's not though? Unless I'm reading this completely wrong he said it himself. It's because he shoots with his right foot. That is his "shooter", it's a bit stupid and childish but each to their own.
You're reading it wrong. The tattoo is in memory of his father. His father was killed as a result gun violence, therefore, Sterling will never touch a gun. He is a footballer who is predominantly right-footed and in football, the word "shoot" is used when a player is attempting to score a goal. Therefore, his right foot is his shooter. He's saying that he chose football instead of guns and violence and instead of a gun he uses his right foot (footballing talents) to spread a positive message instead of getting caught up in gang violence.
Sterling is actually a role model for young kids, he came up from humble beginnings and made something of himself. You can say he's lucky to be born so talented but a lot of kids who are talented at sports and come from a similar background to Sterling fall by the wayside, sometimes through circumstances out of their control.
Its sad that he has been villanized so much.
Absolutely right - some in this thread have compared this to how anti semitism is defined which of course is why so many jews are upset with the labour party for telling them what anti semitism actually is, seemingly on the basis labour are anti racism experts so they know better than jews
It is almost always context rather than language which is truly racist and the cumulative effect of repeating the same
I have felt for a long time that the focus of anti racism in football (and to a certain extent in society) has been too much on specific words (the N word being the most obvious) which means it's more focussed on racially offensive language than on racism. The two are not quite the same thing. As a result, both deliberate but clever racists and those who perhaps aren't intentionally racist, end up repeating the same stereotypes unchallenged
Not the biggest fan of Eddie Hearn but a clip from back when he was getting shit for his performances at the World Cup. Describes meeting him on holiday.
Calm down, there's no need to become abusive.
Villain is a credit to this forum in conversations like this time and time again - that's just my opinion.
And in this thread, I feel you've waded in and made some really ignorant, belligerent and foolish posts, and she's shown you up. You might see it otherwise, but to me that's how it looks.
Bingo, really well said.
Again, I agree with this. I find it hilarious and quite telling that certain individuals think it's worth their time and energy to comment on someone else's tattoos to begin with - especially as so many footy players are covered with them nowadays.
It's as if there's some preconceived notion that the World cares about or wants their approval - when it doesn't, and never will.
When you say, "couldn't bring myself to say it", what you actually mean is that I didn't say it...
And I didn't say it, because that's not what I think - I don't think that all Liverpool fans who dislike Sterling are racist. Hopefully that's simple enough for you to understand.
I know that some of them are.
I also know that of the ones who are racist, not all will have the courage to outwardly declare their racism - racists by their very nature tend to be cowardly, pathetic people.
There's also the fact that if people are caught shouting racist abuse in a stadium, they will be banned...
I also know that football in this country has a history of institutionalized racism, and that it is still in the process of being rooted out.
So, to be clear, my stance, is that when Raheem Sterling is receiving venom and vitriol in the stands, or on messageboards, or in right-wing Newspapers - it will have, for some individuals, the added weight of them being racists and him being black.
Just as it will have on this very forum, and quite possibly, within this very thread - where if people are to openly admit their racism, or speak in an openly racist way they would be banned...
This is a really good point and it certainly liberates the more sinister racists (i.e.) journos to push their narratives onto others without explicitly using racist language. This is why I’m so happy that Sterling has spoken out, I’ve already seen a number of people online apparently change their stance as a result of the discussion stemming from his post. Ultimately, the only way to eradicate the problem is through education so it’s nice to see people taking what’s been said into account rather than the usual accusations of the race card etc.
Abusive? You come in and suggest people are lower on the evolutionary scale, and then cry foul when you get a bit back? Heard enough about you to know you're a hypocrite though, so no surprise there.
Funny how someone like you could suggest ignorance on the part of others, seems to me like you're overcompensating a little.
I didn't dismiss the reporting, I just suggested it wasn't as clear cut as them deciding one day to run with a racist story for no reason and presented an alternative opinion on how such a story could have come about.
I have 'taken heed' of what she is discussing, she has made some very good points. Just because I may disagree with her in certain ways, doesn't mean I am totally ignoring her, or anybody else's experiences in life.
It has been addressed already but this is really super cheap. Because it ends any discussion here and now. There are no more arguments to be made because everyone who disagrees with me is a [some word]. In this case part of a cesspool. This is how it reads anyway. This is particularly effective with topics such as racism where any decent human being can only be on one side and any hint of a controversial opinion can easily be shouted down. But that also kills any nuanced discussion like the one here in this thread. The question whether the ridiculous treatment Sterling gets in the English press is rooted in racism is certainly worth debating. Not least because something useful might come out of it.
Where did I say that?
And you're completely entitled to think I'm ignorant on these issues, maybe you're right and despite experiencing and being personally affected by racism since I was 4 or 5, you somehow are more capable of understanding the deep intricacies of the topic than me... it's certainly possible.
In other news, the Chelsea fan now predictably claims to have said "manc cnut" and to have lost his job because of it.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...used-racially-abusing-raheem-sterling-claims/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...used-racially-abusing-raheem-sterling-claims/
White people can have an educated opinion on racial issues, it's just more-often-than not, those opinions centre around the idea that racism doesn't exist in the context of a particular situation, despite the victims of racism telling you that it does.
I strongly believe that for a lot of white people, it's worse to be called racist or be accused of racism - than to actually be racist. You see it in debates all the time, the idea of a 'race card' being thrown around for example, and this idea that the meaning of racism gets diluted because it's thrown around so often - rather than recognising that racism is much more common than you are led to believe or understand because;
1 - as someone who isn't the victim of racism, you're less likely to view/feel the aspects of it, therefore less likely to believe it exists
2 - black people and other PoC are more likely to not have the psychological strength to discuss racism to those who fall bracket 1, so instead they remain quiet and keep their peace. As the likes of Rhyme Animal, Adisa & Adex have pointed out. Any time I get involved in these debates on here, I often get messages from other black people telling me that they can't believe I have the strength for debate because it is draining and dehumanising. Usually ones who don't post in these threads but are often watching.
Which is why when you decide that something isn't racist despite black people telling you it is racist, and there's been years worth of history of black people saying it's racist - insisting that it isn't racist is frustrating, to say the least - and the amount of times I'm drawn to just say feck it and leave you (speaking generally, not you specifically) to your own views is tempting, but like I said I find it difficult to sit by idly on these issues especially when I know that I, and other black people reading these 'debates' take place feel so strongly but often don't want to speak out on it.
I can't tell you what it's like to be on the receiving end of racism, but flat out telling a black person what they feel doesn't exist, despite you not being able to feel it - is dehumanising, yes. Which is why I used the antisemitism example earlier - the Jewish community get much more respect, and rightfully so on the topic of antisemitism - but often times, when it comes to racism involving black people - unless the N word is thrown around, or White Power Nazi's are involved racism often becomes a debate on whether it exists or not - Piers Morgan is the perfect example of this. And while i'm sure most people would never say they align themselves with Piers' views, they often show themselves up particularly on topics involving race (Again i'm speaking generally, not aimed at you)
To me, having an educated opinion means looking at both perspectives and formulating an educated viewpoint - and on topics that require more nuance, like say - police brutality, where there are faults on both sides, historical context to consider and a toxic climate to contend with - yes absolutely its possible to have an educated opinion on racial issues.
Denying that language used to describe Raheem as a drug dealer, an idiot, someone who fathered multiple kids etc is racist - but rather believing something you made up to be more likely to be true - isn't an educated opinion, it's simply denial - in my opinion. And that denial leads to the state that the newspapers are currently in, this idea that because they haven't outright insulted him because of his skin colour it's not racist. This idea that there are other black players who aren't the topic of discussion, therefore they couldn't possibly be racist. This idea that they have also insulted white players, therefore they couldn't possibly be racist. This idea that players should simply carry themselves in a 'certain way' to be respected, is respectability politics.
I haven’t seen all your posts but I wasn’t really referring to you in the main. I just wanted to explain why it feels dehumanising for some to debate this issue. I haven’t read all your posts in this thread but from what I’ve seen, I don’t think you’ve said anything outrageous even if I disagree with your stance.
My comment wasn't related to the topic at hand. I just find it funny that you feel confident in coming and judging what other people say. It's fecking rich and I can't be arsed with it, honestly.
Fair enough - I'm very glad to hear you say that. Your original post on this referred simply to the reason for Liverpool supporters hatred of Sterling being transparent. There was no mention of "some Liverpool fans" and the inference was the only thing clear in your post. Several people challenged you on this only to be met with mocking responses and/or a defence of your original post.
If you'd actually been clear from the start or clarified your position in any of your subsequent responses you'd have had numerous posts agreeing with you but instead we got to have this lovely exchange with you retroactively updating your point.
On the plus side it's all been simple enough for me to understand. Silver lining and all that.
I did think about the action of states actually when I made my post, and about Bush in particular. I decided against mentioning it in the end because I think it opens a can of worms and ultimately these wars and disastrous foreign policy decisions are largely based on geopolitical deliberations even though right wingers often cite God to justify their decisions. I agree with you about the consequences but I still wouldn't put that in the same category as believing killing all infidels will get you into heaven and shouting "God is great" while doing so. Religion should be called out whenever possible but that is indeed for another thread.
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Don't you think that's a bit arrogant of you?
Forget about race for a second. There is a picture of Everton fans absolutely spitting bile at a Watford player on one of today's papers.
Why do fans feel the need to be abusive to opposition players?
Why do fans feel the need to be abusive to opposition players?
What's cheap is calling players 'bellends' for no discernible reason, insulting 'bling culture', insisting they are more humble and less expressive in order to gain respect, and therefore not be targeted by the british media.
That's cheap, and deserving of being grouped together as a cesspool.
I said what I said, and i'm allowed to hold that opinion.
Well what are you talking about then?If you just don't like me cuz I often take the piss out of Spurs then just say so...don't bottle it
Fair play, I should've been clearer and explained it better from the get go.
Maybe but everyone knows the connotations of displaying an image like that, especially in the UK where gun imagery is slowly being outlawed, and to then permanently tattoo it on a prominent place on your body. For someone in the public eye to do that, either he knew what the reaction would be or he's proved the point.
Fair enough, but I don't think I've suggested that racism doesn't exist, merely that it isn't as significant a factor in this case as is being made out. It's very possible that his race has exacerbated the treatment he's received from the media, but I don't think it's the root cause of it. I'd give more credit to the circumstances of his moving from Liverpool for example, than his ethnicity. It seems like the narrative is that Sterling has been deliberately picked out because of his race, which I don't believe to be the case. I can see why people would feel that way though, especially if they had personally experienced racism.
I'd be interested to know where the policy of 'if a black person tells you its racist, its racist' ends though, because I do think that is potentially dangerous territory. Surely there's huge variety amongst black people about what they actually consider racist, you're talking about a hugely diverse group of people with hugely diverse opinions on both ends of the spectrum. The way I was raised was to question what people say, and the idea of taking someone's statement at face value because of their ethnicity doesn't sit right with me.
I didn't suggest that what black people feel doesn't exist, or at least if it came off that way that's a failure in communication on my part. It's just that I'm dubious about this particular case, honestly it would be fascinating to me to recreate Sterling's career, the same behaviour and career moves, but as a white guy and see the differences in how he was treated. Do I think there would be differences? Absolutely, but again I'm not sure what the extent of those differences would be. I think he would have received similar stick for the tattoo for example, and for posing with a picture of himself next to a diamond encrusted sink immediately after a defeat. These are the kind of actions that the tabloid press in this country jump on regardless of ethnicity. The rumours about the number of children he had etc possibly wouldn't come about, but then there are stereotypes associated with young, working class men in that regard so I'm not entirely sure. But it's very possible that in that case, it was a racially motivated rumour.
Just to clarify, I don't think people should have to carry themselves a certain way. People should feel free to express themselves as individuals in any way they see fit, I was merely stating that in mainstream media it's inevitable that certain personalities and characters will receive more positive coverage than others. Is that fair? No, in a perfect world the media would give equal coverage to everybody, but that's the reality of the world we live in. The likes of Joshua, Kante, Scott Parker, Lampard etc will always receive more favourable coverage than more flamboyant, confident personalities like Fury, McGregor, Mayweather, Pogba. I said it earlier but I'll say it again, British culture in particular looks down upon extravagance or showy behaviour, the stiff upper lip and reserved stereotype still has weight in the country. That is a problem and as a nation we need to be more accepting of individual expression, but I'm not necessarily sure that attitude is motivated by racism.
It is weird. It's simply not acceptable for grown men to go about verbally abusing other people just because they play for a team they aren't fond of.
It doesn't seem such a big problem in other sports, so it's definitely an issue that football has to tackle. I guess mob mentality has a big part to play, and the sense of being anonymous when you're in that crowd situation .. so all the bile and anger they feel is just released. You see that shit on social media too, people would never usually abuse somebody they had never met, but in certain situations where they feel able to get away with it you see that side emerge.
This is it. It is almost exclusive to football. I don't understand why.