If the Russians shot down an airplane from turkey then what? The Turks expect the world to be pulverized just because they made a bad move? Russia will not have any chance in a conventional war against the west so nukes is the only weapon who would guarantee no army would walk in Moscow. Now I know why I never liked the Turks and I do expect Russia to arm the Kurds with anti-aircraft weapons.
Putin and Russia in Syria
- Thread starter Dans
- Start date
This is really bad, they shouldn't have done it whatever.
It's not just that the pilots bailed out and should have been safe but the fecking rebel cnuts murdered them then the cnuts also murdered the helicopter pilot who came to collect them.
It's not just that the pilots bailed out and should have been safe but the fecking rebel cnuts murdered them then the cnuts also murdered the helicopter pilot who came to collect them.
Link?
I'm watching the 10 O'clock News!
Yea - was just about to say - BBC have updated their news story with it.
It's not really clear from the video how that helicopter was shot. It's an edited version and it looks like filmed with two different cameras. No idea really.
The video is bullshit.
Why not place the camera behind the rocket launcher, and film the rocket flying towards and hitting the helicopter. If they had time to make a movie, they had time to set it up.
Nobody will go to war over a few shot down planes, it's handbags. Handbags with people inside but still.
The video is bullshit.
Why not place the camera behind the rocket launcher, and film the rocket flying towards and hitting the helicopter. If they had time to make a movie, they had time to set it up.
Do you know how rocket launchers work?
Pretty sure the video is garbage though.
But it was turkmen who shot the pilots. The same turkmen who've been getting bombed by Russian planes all week. Understandable that they wouldn't be too friendly.
Do you know how rocket launchers work?
Pretty sure the video is garbage though.
I thought someone might say that.
Without getting bogged down in detail, I meant that they put the camera where the launcher and the chopper were both in shot. Newton's Third Law would have fried them of course if they stood directly behind the launcher.
How the hell can Turkey claim that in a matter of 17 seconds they have issued 10 warnings, made sure the pilot is not responding and then shot the plane down? Unless they have started the warnings ahead of time. I'm not sure what the international law is - if someone comes close to your air space, but doesn't cross it, are you allowed to take measures? Theoretically you should be able to stay as close as you want for as long as you want.
In this case the Turkish plane had to start intercepting the Russian planes ahead of time over the Syrian airspace, so Turkey were braking international law first, by trying to prevent Russia to cross into their airspace.
In this case the Turkish plane had to start intercepting the Russian planes ahead of time over the Syrian airspace, so Turkey were braking international law first, by trying to prevent Russia to cross into their airspace.
Deep breaths no nukes are being launched.
Not sure that telling someone NOT to enter your airspace is a violation of international law. Got a link to the law so I can understand it better?
Because standing behind a rocket launcher is a bad ideaThe video is bullshit.
Why not place the camera behind the rocket launcher, and film the rocket flying towards and hitting the helicopter. If they had time to make a movie, they had time to set it up.
Obama has chosen his words well. I hope the next president is as considered.
Not the first time in combat that such things have happened, go read some stories about the medevac choppers in Vietnam or even the ones rescuing downed pilots.
What I'm saying is that the Turkish plane had to start intercepting the Russian ahead of time - over the Syrian airspace, which is a violation - Assad gave permission to the Russians to fly in Syrian airspace, not to the Turks.
I suppose this gives Greece all the justification they need to shoot down the Turkish planes that violate their air space on a daily basis, ditto for the Kurdish regional government in Iraq.
If the Russians do it again, the Turks should do it again.
It goes without saying that any nation that flies its war planes into another nation's territorial airspace may be subject to a confrontation.
The Cafe is so literal-minded.
See my post above.If the Ruskies nuked Istanbul, I wonder what we'd do?
When military aircraft are approaching international borders, they're warned that they're about to enter restricted airspace if they don't change course and warning them what will happen if they do. The Turks wouldn't have to enter Syrian airspace to intercept. Their air-to-air weapons have enough range to do it from within Turkey.
If they're going to attack targets in that area, they should probably be using standoff missiles that prevent the need for aircraft to cross into Turkey. It would allow them to fire it and then turn back while it still goes on to whatever target they have. Not sure how good the Russian weapons are though or if they've been updated since the Soviets.
US official now confirms Russian jet was hit inside Syria.
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-jet-hit-inside-syria-incursion-turkey-u-010811956.html
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-jet-hit-inside-syria-incursion-turkey-u-010811956.html
Actually the Russian bomber was shot over the Syria airspace since they flew only 10 seconds over the mighty turkish airspace. I'm guessing more innocent people will die.
Could it be a feck up in Turkey's personnel like their CO are getting ahead by himself (although I'm sure the rules of engagement are on his side, I do still think that this is an extreme measures to take against Russia)
I might be reading the radar map the Turkish government released, but the entire area looks like an absolute mess regarding airspace.
It looks to me, and this could be wrong, that the bit of airspace in question is literally a finger of airspace that juts into Syrian airspace. It looks like its a couple of miles wide at its broadest.
We also have been told that the Russian plane was under attack from the ground. The entire incident is idiotic and we should really be looking at what Turkey is up to over there. Turkey claims it warned the pilots as many as 10 times in the 5 minutes leading up to the alleged violation. The plane they claim was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. I don't know if this is the entire duration including the crashing, or up to the point where the Russian plane was shot. Either way, the plane crashed in Syria and both pilots landed in Syria. The plane was imminently returning to Syrian airspace.
The Russians have also claimed that the Turkish F-16's violated Syrian airspace in their attack. Looking at the radar profile it's not really hard to see how that is possible. I don't know the turning radius of an F-16 flying at combat speeds but I wouldn't be shocked if they entered Syrian airspace while turning in that narrow spit of Turkish airspace.
The real issue here IMO is, what exactly is Turkey trying to do. We're supposed to be on the same side in Syria. We're supposed to be fighting radical islamist militant groups like ISIS, Al-Nursa and others. Why would they risk provoking Russia in this manner? This had to be absolutely pre-meditated like they had orders to fire the very second Russian planes crossed the magic line. Even when the Russian planes posed no strategic threat to Turkey, or a tactical threat to any Turkish citizens.
So is this about which rebel groups each side is allowed to attack? The Turkomen tribes are clearly the proxy asset of Turkey.
The fact is, Russia is still a first rate military power, China, the United States and Russia are the three leading global military powers. The European powers that could potentially rival Russia are all largely demilitarized. Besides that, Russia and China are the only two military powers on Earth that devalue life enough to the point where they would actually pose a credible threat to western military power. In a vacuum they pose no credible threat, but when you combine two very important factors, general capability, and casualty tolerance, this changes things.
I'd say straight up, that the USA, Great Britain, Germany, France, whomever would not defeat Russia or China in a conventional non-existential war. For the simple reason they would be willing to take casualties we in the west would not be willing to over something that didn't threaten our way of life. Realistically the west could win easily, yet at significant cost, that is the point I am trying to make. It's not a price we would be willing to pay over this. This might seem absurd to you, but the question you need to ask is, how bloody would Russia make us, and would we be willing to pay that price over something as stupid as Turkey flexing its muscles?
European and American way of life is not threatened by it, our tolerance for casualties would be minimal, and Russia has the manpower, hardware and know-how to inflict casualties.
Russia is still geared to fight grand wars. The West has retooled entirely to fight high intensity, low duration conflicts against insurgents, or tiny insignificant rogue states. We have done this to minimize casualties because our societies simply do not have the stomach for casualties if the cause isn't worthy.
Do we believe for even one minute that the American public would rally behind Turkey as a worthy cause willing to lose hundreds of thousands of men to in a limited conventional war?
This is all a tremendous whatif, I doubt anything significant will come of this, but the idea of dismissing the Russians as little more than Iraq is silly. Not every war is an in it to the death struggle, and that is even more true for western democracies. We fight wars of limited scope to limit the casualties and damages caused. A war between Turkey and Russia and potentially NATO would be fought from the Russian point of view as though it were existential. They might not be the biggest dog in the fight. The toughest dog in the fight, but they'd be willing to die by the millions to win it, I'd bet on that. Would we?
This is very interesting. It would effectively challenge the NATO charter I'd wager if Russia were to retaliate. If Russia demands some sort of repayment and Turkey says go to hell and Russia decides to punish Turkey, the NATO treaty as I understand it would be violated if NATO came to Turkey's defense.
Just the other day Turkey threatened dire consequences or something to that effect if Russia didn't stop bombing the Turkomen operating in Syria on the border.
It really does feel like we're heading towards WW3 and the media are ushering it along.
It's crazy if you think about it.
Nobody thought WW1 could happen because of the balance of power situation. Just when you think the unthinkable is impossible, that's when it is possible.
Let's hope that cooler heads prevail and everyone involved realizes that it isn't worth a potential global conflict between nuclear super powers.
Turkey needs to be sat down by the higher ups in NATO before it causes WW3.
I don't think it's in anyone's interest for a World War 3 on European continent, with today's firepower there won't be anything left after a war and the eventual winner (if any) will gain nothing.
Land alone doesn't worth much these days, the new world order has been properly established and there's really nothing to gain for the winner nor the loser. Nobody in their right mind would want a conventional war
Land alone doesn't worth much these days, the new world order has been properly established and there's really nothing to gain for the winner nor the loser. Nobody in their right mind would want a conventional war
Russia Deploys Missile Cruiser, Suspends Military Cooperation With Turkey.
http://www.valuewalk.com/2015/11/russia-deploys-missile-cruiser-turkey/
http://www.valuewalk.com/2015/11/russia-deploys-missile-cruiser-turkey/
Looks like the seond Russian pilot was indeed rescued by SAA. Some reports emerged yesterday that the SAA forces managed to rescue him in a special operation "behind the enemy lines", and that he was eventually evacuated to the Hmeymim airbase.
Seriously?
If the Russians perpetually violate Turkish air space then yeah, of course.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeah what's the worst that could happen
If the Turks shoot down another plane the next thing to violate their airspace will be several hundred cruise missiles heading for Istanbul... And from their it's either a full on turkey vs Russia war
Or nato don't cut turkey adrift (though i think they might if they shoot first again) and then we get ww3
So yeah perhaps it would be better if a 17 second violation of airspace was raised (and hopefully solved) diplomatically in future
This is how we learn why Turkey are not yet in the EU.
Compare with the Ukraine crisis, it's a good job Turkey didn't get involved in that now, isn't it?
You can create a diplomatic incident without shooting down aircraft ffs!
Imagine if every time a Russian submarine accidently found itself straying (snooping around) in the North Sea, NATO blew it out of the water, and vice versa?
Compare with the Ukraine crisis, it's a good job Turkey didn't get involved in that now, isn't it?
You can create a diplomatic incident without shooting down aircraft ffs!
Imagine if every time a Russian submarine accidently found itself straying (snooping around) in the North Sea, NATO blew it out of the water, and vice versa?
Last edited:
Dangerous times. I forgot some fans at the Turkey game booed during the minutes silence for the paris attacks. Showing their true colours?