Yeah... I wouldn't want to be on the next usa spy plane mission due to fly over Russian airspace
Putin and Russia in Syria
- Thread starter Dans
- Start date
On the plus side at least Trump is not (yet) president or I dread to think how today may have escalated
Satellites.Ah the moderate opposition. The one that takes U.S. weapons and runs over to ISIS.
From incursions by unauthorized foreign aircraft. Take of the Slav-tinted glasses, Miha, you're better than that.
Those "moderate rebels" in Lattakia (mainly Al-Nusra Front) will be crushed now after this, me thinks.
I think Russia will respond, but in Syria, which will probably hurt Turkey even more.
To be pedantic, there were two jets. The Russians have repeatedly, illegally violated Turkish airspace since beginning their operations in Syria. It's why they requested US move some F-15s to Turkey in the last month. Did the Soviets/Russians think a spy plane was going to invade/attack them when they shot down a U2? It just violated their airspace.
I thought the Russians and NATO are fighting the same enemy. Apparently not. Did you actually expect the Turks to do something like this? I didn't.
It does sound funny how airspace can be violated.
As I said, I was under the impression they are all joined up in this action.
It's surprising alright but not a completely unexpected result. If a military aircraft violates someone's airspace you can expect it to be shot down. There's a lot more sensitivity to this issue than we think. Turkey, being a NATO member won't accept any Russian incursions. Letting it happen would make for a worse situation later.
Edit: reading Matt's post above leads me to believe they allowed a few and have had enough.
I would have expected the Russians to coordinate their air strikes with the U.S./ NATO and vice versa. Simply to avoid 'friendly fire'. Isn't there supposed to be communication going on between all parties involved?
Repeated incursions into Turkish airspace will obviously not be perceived as anything other than provocative.
Its been happening for a while, so Putin should not be surprised.
October - http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...berg-russia-turkish-airspace-violations-syria
and Russia has previously admitted it, (blaming the weather of course)
http://www.latimes.com/world/middle...reached-turkish-air-space-20151005-story.html
I rate Obama highly but that is a ridiculous comment to make given the circumstances.
The diplomatic community will no doubt emphasise the importance of not entering anothers borders whilst also saying Turkey overreacted. No one wants this to escalate and the US don't want this to hurt their interests ("Good Terrorists) in the region.
It is ridiculous to attempt to justify the action though, the US have already stated the plane was in Turkish airspace for mere seconds. Is it really their policy that whilst others escort that they shoot on entry (hehe)?
The U2 incident was at the high point of the Cold War and the US pilot was about 1500 miles into Soviet territory by the time he was shot down. In this particular incident it's not even certain that the Russian plane was inside Turkish airspace when it was shot down.
You've got to bear in mind that what Turkey want from this situation is very different to what the rest of their NATO allies want. On top of that, what Russia wants is always different to what everyone else wants so these two are playing their own game within the bigger battle.
Where Obama has been stupid here, is allowing Putin an avenue to change the direction of the game. The main focus should be crushing IS, and Russia are more important in that respect than Turkey have been or will continue to be. Once that is achieved, they can play their political games to decide who retains power in the new Syria. Doing so now is putting more risk on Europe and deflecting from the main issue at hand.
Shooting down an unmanned spy plane to make a point is a bit different to manned fighter jets though?
Will Russia back the Kurds in declaring independence... Chrimea MK2 (or MK 3 I guess with Ukraine)
And of course obliterate any Turkish forces that enter the new kurdistan?
And of course obliterate any Turkish forces that enter the new kurdistan?
I don't disagree with any of that but it seems militaries aren't fond of sharing information. We experienced plenty of friendly fire incidents between NATO members in Afghanistan. It's very sad because we might see better relations evolve out of cooperation, especially in this conflict.
If they support that, then Turkey should support the Chechen movement for independence. Basically, we should all become try and make as many new countries as possible. lol
Reported reactions so far from Russia:
1- will cut all ties with Turkey (especially military).
2- will deploy air defence in Lattakia.
3- will shoot any aircraft they deem (potentially) dangerous for its forces inside Syria.
1- will cut all ties with Turkey (especially military).
2- will deploy air defence in Lattakia.
3- will shoot any aircraft they deem (potentially) dangerous for its forces inside Syria.
It's weird...We saw the video of people shooting at a parachuted soldier as he came down.
Yet the Turks are claiming both pilots are alive and the Russians are saying the pilot killed was from the downed helicopter not the fighter jet.
Yet the Turks are claiming both pilots are alive and the Russians are saying the pilot killed was from the downed helicopter not the fighter jet.
TEAM A
USA
FRANCE
UNITED KINGDOM
TURKEY
CHINA?
TEAM B
RUSSIA
Assad
Please feel free to add/delete
USA
FRANCE
UNITED KINGDOM
TURKEY
CHINA?
TEAM B
RUSSIA
Assad
Please feel free to add/delete
Just seen this... Makes the decision to engage look at best rash
All the chest beating is for public consumption. Putin can't afford to estrange himself from Erdogan after already having spent the past two years having done so with the US, Britain, France, Germany, Poland etc. He and Erdogan will get on the phone and hash things out, and a new framework for deconfliction will be sorted out.
TEAM A
USA
FRANCE
TURKEY
TEAM B
RUSSIA
China
Assad
Please feel free to add/delete
TEAM A
USA
FRANCE
UNITED KINGDOM
TURKEY
CHINA?
TEAM B
RUSSIA
Assad
Please feel free to add/delete
You can basically add everyone from the opening scene from the Naked Gun to team B.
Was he really part of "the team". DHS is a huge organization.
agree Raoul. makes sense...and a lot more frightening.
He is not talking about an unmanned spy plane
Just seen this... Makes the decision to engage look at best rash
I think Turkey are justifying this as a reaction to an accumulation of trespasses. Whether, people buy that or not is a different issue.
This isn't the first time they have entered Turkish airspace, though.
Just seen this... Makes the decision to engage look at best rash
I'd wager the real reason was the Turks weren't exactly thrilled with the Russians taking out ISIS and Al Nusra targets near the border, since they were useful for keeping the Kurds at bay.
Whatever way it's dressed up it does appear that the actual shooting down took place in Syrian airspace (albeit from a missile fired from Turkish airspace)
Though he could have also mentioned the Russians shooting down of that Korean Airliner that had violated it's airspace in the 80's.
Definitely seems the result of repeated incursions over the past couple of months to where Erdogan gave his pilots permission to engage any further attempts. The flight path basically makes it inconvenient for Russian pilots to swoop around the southern tip of Turkish airspace and more convenient to fly through it as if they have permission.
France are essentially allied with Russia and the USA. Turkey are essentially both allied and opposed to both.
A quick way to stop this escalating would be for the US to criticise Turkey's actions, whilst reaffirming its commitment to NATO. That may still occur
How both Turkey and Russia can save face from this I am not sure
A quick way to stop this escalating would be for the US to criticise Turkey's actions, whilst reaffirming its commitment to NATO. That may still occur
How both Turkey and Russia can save face from this I am not sure
I don't think so. For a start the decision over air defence system deployment can't be hidden from the public.
I think the main undeclared response will be their presence in Syria, I think it will increase and they will make Turkey's proxies feel their reaction (not that they're not hurting them now mind you, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of ground operations in Syria now). After all, it was those Turkmen who actually killed the two pilots.
Putin and Erdogan are going to have to hash this out privately over a phone call. I'm sure they will, since not doing so will risk further escalation which neither can afford at the moment.