Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[2mufc0]

Where am I ignoring racism? Please expand. Also you're conflating UK incidents with US examples.

UK excess BAME covid19 infections is not about subpar health access; general public all have same access to our NHS, especially during covid19. It's about these communities having higher ratio in 'key worker' sectors, 3 generation homes living under same roof, higher propensity to live in urban high population density areas eg: high rise flat.

Every time any group had a mass gathering, all other people used whatever means they had to protest that, and it always ended up in national media and UK authorities tried to mitigate, within the limited powers they had. The issue was weak UK Government covid19 lockdown policy.

The point you are right about it its not about genetics or DNA. Which makes these protests even more dangerous from a covid19 pov. Protest attendance will have much higher BAME attendance. covid19 will infect the protestors who will then all take home to their community. Many BAME people will then die as a result. This logic sequence is not very difficult to create or compute, so Im really struggling to follow your line of thought.

This is a good post, COVID is a big issue which has taken a backseat recently. Given the importance of the issue i can understand people wanting to go out and protest and take the risk but they need to do a proper risk assessment before going out (e.g do they live with vulnerable people? are they key workers? are they in a position to self isolate? etc), main thing is not to be careless esp with lockdown rules which are likely to be relaxed during the next couple of weeks.

 

[Ludens the Red]

I know that you can't judge people on superficial things but she sounds like someone that is extremely slow.

Exactly what I was thinking. She was complete deadpan through the whole thing.

You forgot to mention he wasn't just pointing he was resisting arrest and threatened to "put the officers to sleep".

A subsequent inquiry cleared the officers of any wrong doing.

I have to say they made a right meal out of that one. I don’t get why some officers beat around the bush like that, he was obviously wanted, just tell the guy. That way there’s no uncertainty. It was a very British arrest, just being very overly polite ended up making their job harder for them. But yeah dunno what this clip is doing in here anyway.

 

[2mufc0]

That bold part . What about if they died protesting over something that happened in another country whilst their national health service is still fighting to stop people dying from the virus? Sorry but your logic, in the current circumstances, is just wrong.

Yeah it's a weird way of thinking, I know of someone in his early 30s who died from it and left behind a young daughter, pretty much tearing the family. Like i said in my last post, i can understand why people want to go out and protest but they should be aware of the risks and do a proper risk assessment.

 

[Amarsdd]

Cheers, I have to say this terrible event has led me to read up quite a bit on the topic but am by no means any sort of expert.

I've twice addressed @hmchan 's point of 'how we know that racism is involved' and neither time has he chosen to acknowledge these points but has continually repeated his question.

Its only when I read (abbreviated) post below that it really hit me. I'd encourage everyone to spend time reading the full post here).

Policing in USA originated in white slave owners desire to brutally suppress the human rights of black people. It is literally at the heart of the 'American Police' idea and went unchallenged for 330 years until the 1960s. So it's not surprising that this is still a strong theme today and will attract many who sympathise with these beliefs.

The only way for USA to change this is to engage in a systemic root and branch change program. I'm not sure how thats possible under a Trump Government, nor do I believe that Biden has the energy or passion to make it happen either. I think Saunders could have started it, but seems that ship has sailed.

A few days ago some poster posted about the podcast "Scene on Radio" esp. S4. I have been listening to it since then and it has opened my eyes on a lot of things about the actual history of "Democracy" in US since its birth and what it actually looked like African Americans. I would highly recommend listening to it if you guys have any passing interest.

 

[NecssryEvil]

I usually don't stray too far from the football forum but thought it would be interesting to see what people from another country (other countries in the case of the Cafe) were saying. I have skimmed the 89 pages and I see a lot of the same comments, thoughts and opinions I see being said in America. It seems for the most part that we can agree that what happened to George Floyd is not what the majority of the world wants as part of our societies.

The frustrating part is that I far too often see the narrative switched and we lose sight of what started things off. I mean, NFL players tried taking a knee to (about as peacefully as one could) bring attention to their cause and it quickly turned to "they hate America". Unless you think there is NO racism in the world (and then you and I need to talk) we need to be sharing ideas of how we can correct things and not spend all our time trying to figure out who to blame next, or why the protests are being done the wrong way.

I am sick of this happening and if we don't start to fix things this time we will be right back here with another incident by 2023. And, in the case of the US, probably a couple mass shootings in between. I'll be honest, I am not sure what to do about it or how to change things quickly. I have heard ideas I think could help and I have a couple of my own that I think merit considering, but, as I said before, it seems like most are more worried about pointing the finger or shifting the blame than solving the problem. Plus, other than protesting, I don't believe I have a voice that matters.

What I do know is that this PoS that is our president has got to be removed. My goal for the next five months is to get as many people registered to vote as possible. It will probably be nearly insignificant in the grand scheme, but I want to do something, anything to help get back to some semblance of order in our government. I am very scared we may have four more years of this guy and I am not sure America can survive that (and I am too old to move to Canada).

 

[caid]

You forgot to mention he wasn't just pointing he was resisting arrest and threatened to "put the officers to sleep".

A subsequent inquiry cleared the officers of any wrong doing.

The inquiry is wrong and was a second mistake. Their behaviour and treatment of him was clearly wrong. You view is completely fecked and broken if you don't recognise that.

 

[Deery]

That bold part . What about if they died protesting over something that happened in another country whilst their national health service is still fighting to stop people dying from the virus? Sorry but your logic, in the current circumstances, is just wrong.

And as for systematic racism? Anyone would think ethnic minorities don’t have the same human rights as everyone one. To simply blame skin colour for these issues is too simplistic. Just my opinion. I’m sure I’ll get slaughtered as a racist for saying it.

That’s exactly the type of attitude and mindset people are trying to change but from some of your other posts am sure you won’t get it.

 

[TheReligion]

The inquiry is wrong and was a second mistake. Their behaviour and treatment of him was clearly wrong. You view is completely fecked and broken if you don't recognise that.

What you on about? I didn't give my opinion on it I just stated some facts which as usual certain posters here don't like to mention when they post.

 

[caid]

What you on about? I didn't give my opinion on it I just stated some facts which as usual certain posters here don't like to mention when they post.

So you recognise their treatment was completely disproportionate and should have been punished then?

 

[entropy]

 

[TheReligion]

Exactly what I was thinking. She was complete deadpan through the whole thing.



I have to say they made a right meal out of that one. I don’t get why some officers beat around the bush like that, he was obviously wanted, just tell the guy. That way there’s no uncertainty. It was a very British arrest, just being very overly polite ended up making their job harder for them. But yeah dunno what this clip is doing in here anyway.

I think that was my point however in raising this, and the fact as usual Sam is being manipulative, I'm accused immediately of having a "completely fecked and broken view". Bizarre.

Hope you're keeping well by the way. Things look like they heated up a bit in London and saw an officer get punched in the face following a scuffle. Stay safe.

 

[2mufc0]

no wonder things have become violent with these twats around.

 

[caid]

I think that was my point however in raising this, and the fact as usual Sam is being manipulative, I'm accused immediately of having a "completely fecked and broken view". Bizarre.

Hope you're keeping well by the way. Things look like they heated up a bit in London and saw an officer get punched in the face following a scuffle. Stay safe.

Hide behind rhetoric if you like, if you don't see that behaviour as fecked up then your view is broken.

 

[TheReligion]

So you recognise their treatment was completely disproportionate and should have been punished then?

Why? Because if I don't agree exactly with your assessment I'm "completely fecked and broken"?

I pointed out he wasn't tasered for pointing his finger as the poster made out. I also pointed out a subsequent independent investigation (look it up) found the officer not guilty of any misconduct. Not sure what your issue is. The video is two years old and the thread is now being de-railed by it.

 

[Grinner]

Hide behind rhetoric if you like, if you don't see that behaviour as fecked up then your view is broken.

Do you know some facts about the case or are you just going off what was in the video?

 

[Drifter]

John Boyega Gives Emotional Speech To Black Lives Matter Protestors In London

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertain...ondon/ar-BB14YG5G?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

 

[sammsky1]

Obama is hosting a virtual town hall on this at 5 ET or roughly 3 hours from now, if you’re into that sort of thing.

Will be broadcast here: https://www.obama.org/anguish-and-action/

I think Obama will make a play to lead the movement a la MLK. BLM needs to articulate what it wants, and needs a shrewd person to negotiate that for them. I think if Obama is genuine in his membership of BLM, he could create even more change from outside White House.

Would make 2020 election even more spicy.

 

[TheReligion]

Hide behind rhetoric if you like, if you don't see that behaviour as fecked up then your view is broken.

I'm not hiding behind anything. I've not commented on my own subjective view of the incident I've just added some facts to the rubbish post he made.

 

[JPRouve]

I usually don't stray too far from the football forum but thought it would be interesting to see what people from another country (other countries in the case of the Cafe) were saying. I have skimmed the 89 pages and I see a lot of the same comments, thoughts and opinions I see being said in America. It seems for the most part that we can agree that what happened to George Floyd is not what the majority of the world wants as part of our societies.

The frustrating part is that I far too often see the narrative switched and we lose sight of what started things off. I mean, NFL players tried taking a knee to (about as peacefully as one could) bring attention to their cause and it quickly turned to "they hate America". Unless you think there is NO racism in the world (and then you and I need to talk) we need to be sharing ideas of how we can correct things and not spend all our time trying to figure out who to blame next, or why the protests are being done the wrong way.

I am sick of this happening and if we don't start to fix things this time we will be right back here with another incident by 2023. And, in the case of the US, probably a couple mass shootings in between. I'll be honest, I am not sure what to do about it or how to change things quickly. I have heard ideas I think could help and I have a couple of my own that I think merit considering, but, as I said before, it seems like most are more worried about pointing the finger or shifting the blame than solving the problem. Plus, other than protesting, I don't believe I have a voice that matters.

What I do know is that this PoS that is our president has got to be removed. My goal for the next five months is to get as many people registered to vote as possible. It will probably be nearly insignificant in the grand scheme, but I want to do something, anything to help get back to some semblance of order in our government. I am very scared we may have four more years of this guy and I am not sure America can survive that (and I am too old to move to Canada).

I strongly believe that there is literally nothing that will change things quickly. It's a social and moral problem, as long as the white majority consciously and unconsciously retain strong prejudices against minorities nothing will change. minorities will be brutally treated by the police for petty crimes or even sometimes just because they look suspicious. Read this quote and you will realize or have the confirmation of the scale of the issue, particularly the bolded part.

According to the Justice Department, between 2012 and 2014, black people in Ferguson, Mo., accounted for 85 percent of vehicle stops, 90 percent of citations and 93 percent of arrests, despite comprising 67 percent of the population. Blacks were more than twice as likely as whites to be searched after traffic stops, even though they proved to be 26 percent less likely to be in possession of illegal drugs or weapons. Between 2011 and 2013, blacks also received 95 percent of jaywalking tickets and 94 percent of tickets for “failure to comply.” The Justice Department also found that the racial discrepancy for speeding tickets increased dramatically when researchers looked at tickets based on only an officer’s word vs. tickets based on objective evidence, such as vs. radar. Black people facing similar low-level charges as white people were 68 percent less likely to see those charges dismissed in court. More than 90 percent of the arrest warrants stemming from failure to pay/failure to appear were issued for black people.

And when people vote for someone like Trump, you know that you are not even close to acknowledge the issue let alone fix it.

 

[Grinner]

Will be broadcast here: https://www.obama.org/anguish-and-action/

I think Obama will make a play to lead the movement a la MLK. BLM needs to articulate what it wants, and needs a shrewd person to negotiate that for them. I think if Obama is genuine in his membership of BLM, he could create even more change from outside White House.

Would make 2020 election even more spicy.

Trump is gonna shit a brick. He loathes Obama and will hate being upstaged again.

 

[Kag]

That bold part . What about if they died protesting over something that happened in another country whilst their national health service is still fighting to stop people dying from the virus? Sorry but your logic, in the current circumstances, is just wrong.

And as for systematic racism? Anyone would think ethnic minorities don’t have the same human rights as everyone one. To simply blame skin colour for these issues is too simplistic. Just my opinion. I’m sure I’ll get slaughtered as a racist for saying it.

My logic is sound. You just don’t like it because it’s also rather crass. I won’t apologise for that. Dying from COVID is a reasonable way to die. It’s a highly contagious respiratory illness, born out of the environment. Cancer, heart failure, organ failure, sepsis, motor neurone and AIDS; the list is probably endless. All truly horrible, not necessarily born out of the environment, but also part and parcel of every day life. COVID is just another obstacle humanity has to overcome.

Racism is not any of those things. It is behavioural and (you would truly hope) eminently preventable. It won’t die away in two years. It isn’t some sort of number pornography that you can watch dwindle away as you sit, locked away, in your house watching television episodes on Netflix. It isn’t curbed by lockdowns or social bloody distancing.

A person’s race isn’t a reasonable reason to die. That shouldn’t need saying, really, but it reinforces just why it’s significantly bigger than a virus. Unfathomably so.

You question my logic when you ask me why people would congregate and protest when they could die. I would ask you to consider why they would still make the choice to mobilise when they are confronted by what is a very real and serious risk to their health. We have this growing body of evidence surrounding COVID and still people are choosing to come together to fight an even bigger evil. That should tell you something. I feel it’s important to highlight that I’m referring to these demonstrations on the whole, not specifically the UK, albeit I still support their right to do so.

Your systemic racism response is murky and I wonder if you’d care to elaborate on this further?

 

[Withnail]

Just to highlight, these sorts of posts are what I and other refer to when we talk about echo chambers and shutdown of discussion.

I dont agree with @hmchan but he is expressing his viewpoint and trying to discuss it fairly constructively, moreso than some of those replying to him.

Given he later said no one was going to be able to convince him this case was linked to racism, I think I was right.

My point was I didn't believe he was going to be convinced to change his mind so anyone arguing with him was wasting their time.

People are obviously free to engage with or ignore who they like and my aim wasn't to try to shut down discussion so I can see your point.

 

[sammsky1]

Trump is ingonna shit a brick. He loathes Obama and will hate being upstaged again.

Yep. Would get shit from 2 democratic flanks. Its a brilliant election stategy and the perfect way to get Biden into White House. Obama is as TV box office as Trump, (supporters and critics alike), especially 4 years away from media. It would dramatically decrease the media time provided to Trump and end up giving Democrats more coverage overall.

Biden Obama have their telepathic brothely relationship, so I doubt Biden will get insecure about riding on Obama's back on the BLM issue, leaving him to concentrate on other more regular election issues.

Would be very smart and fun if they did this.

 

[Heardy]

When I absolutely failed to articulate my point the other night on here, this was the point I was trying to put across regarding the negative elements of “rioting” and it having a negative effect.

 

[Ludens the Red]

That bold part . What about if they died protesting over something that happened in another country whilst their national health service is still fighting to stop people dying from the virus? Sorry but your logic, in the current circumstances, is just wrong.

And as for systematic racism? Anyone would think ethnic minorities don’t have the same human rights as everyone one. To simply blame skin colour for these issues is too simplistic. Just my opinion. I’m sure I’ll get slaughtered as a racist for saying it.

And another one
The usual tactic, faux outrage over things not related to the actual topic and then a paragraph where the true self reveals itself. Same pattern all the time.

I think that was my point however in raising this, and the fact as usual Sam is being manipulative, I'm accused immediately of having a "completely fecked and broken view". Bizarre.

Hope you're keeping well by the way. Things look like they heated up a bit in London and saw an officer get punched in the face following a scuffle. Stay safe.

I’ve got a desk wanker job at the moment so I’m good. It’s not too bad though from speaking to people. Isolated incidents. I doubt it’ll kick off here like in the states.

 

[JPRouve]

My logic is sound. You just don’t like it because it’s also rather crass. I won’t apologise for that. Dying from COVID is a reasonable way to die. It’s a highly contagious respiratory illness, born out of the environment. Cancer, heart failure, organ failure, sepsis, motor neurone and AIDS; the list is probably endless. All truly horrible, not necessarily born out of the environment, but also part and parcel of every day life. COVID is just another obstacle humanity has to overcome.

Racism is not any of those things. It is behavioural and (you would truly hope) eminently preventable. It won’t die away in two years. It isn’t some sort of number pornography that you can watch dwindle away as you sit, locked away, in your house watching television episodes of Netflix. It isn’t curbed by lockdowns or social bloody distancing.

A person’s race isn’t a reasonable way to die. That shouldn’t need saying, really, but it reinforces just why it’s significantly bigger than a virus. Unfathomably so.

You question my logic when you ask me why people would congregate and protest when they could die. I would ask you to consider why they would still make the choice to mobilise when they are confronted by what is a very real and serious risk to their health. We have this growing body of evidence surrounding COVID and still people are choosing to come together to fight an even bigger evil. That should tell you something. I feel it’s important to highlight they I’m referring to these protests on the whole, not specifically the UK, albeit I still support their right to do so.

Your systemic racism response is murky and I wonder if you’d care to elaborate on this further?

For many of these people it's a life sentence which is the part that most of us can't grasp, it affects every aspects of life from access to a home, loans, jobs. There is also simple things like going to grocery stores and being followed "discreetly" by security or snide remarks. Police brutality and death are potential ends but there is a road before that and that's what most people protesting want to stop.

 

[Walrus]

Given he later said no one was going to be able to convince him this case was linked to racism, I think I was right.

My point was I didn't believe he was going to be convinced to change his mind so anyone arguing with him was wasting their time.

People are obviously free to engage with or ignore who they like and my aim wasn't to try to shut down discussion so I can see your point.

Do you - hand on heart - believe that anyone would be able to convince you to change your mind on this?

I dont think @hmchan comes across particularly well, and he also failed to respond to a post of mine earlier where I posted him three relatively straightforward yes/no questions. But he isnt being aggressive (most of the insults have been in his direction, in fact) and is at least attempting to put his viewpoint across in a reasonable fashion. If you dont want to engage with him - which is completely understandable - then just dont engage with him. Put him on ignore if you really feel there is no value to any discussion with him.

Its mildly ironic that in a thread where a major part of the talking point is people's right to freedom of speech, that we are having this discussion.

 

[P-Ro]

 

[caid]

Do you know some facts about the case or are you just going off what was in the video?

I'm just going off the video. Do you need any more details? Is there any reasonable time when detaining an unidentified frail, old man with a fecking taser isn't fecking silly and disproportianate?

 

[NecssryEvil]

I strongly believe that there is literally nothing that will change things quickly. It's a social and moral problem, as long as the white majority consciously and unconsciously retain strong prejudices against minorities nothing will change. minorities will be brutally treated by the police for petty crimes or even sometimes just because they look suspicious. Read this quote and you will realize or have the confirmation of the scale of the issue, particularly the bolded part.



And when people vote for someone like Trump, you know that you are not even close to acknowledge the issue let alone fix it.

Yeah, Ferguson may not be the epicenter of the problem but it represents it quite well. They just elected the first black Mayor in their history so maybe she will help move things in the right direction. Quickly was poor word choice on my part, I understand there is no quick fix to this.

As for the second part... IDK, I know you are noting suggesting it but it leads one to believe there is nothing that can be done so might as well give up. Again, I am not accusing you of suggesting that, just that in conversations with people around me I do get a sense of (and I fecking hate this term) "it is what it is" and nothings going to change. Your point is spot on though, how 40-45% of Americans can look at this guy and see anything but a grotesque "human" being, I have no idea.

 

[JPRouve]

I disagree with vandalism but the police did the right thing, escalating things would have led to chaos when it's easy to get rid of paint.

 

[Cascarino]

And as for systematic racism? Anyone would think ethnic minorities don’t have the same human rights as everyone one. To simply blame skin colour for these issues is too simplistic. Just my opinion. I’m sure I’ll get slaughtered as a racist for saying it.

If you need to end your message with ‘I bet I’ll get called a racist‘, It’s not the best post.

 

[2mufc0]

Nowhere does it show the monument being defaced.

The replies to the tweet show the type of account you are sharing

 

[Grinner]

I'm just going off the video. Do you need any more details? Is there any reasonable time when detaining an unidentified frail, old man with a fecking taser isn't fecking silly and disproportianate?

Yes I need more details. The official report might be a good start. But if you want to pursue it then perhaps do so in another thread.

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

That David Vance seems like a nice person...

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah, Ferguson may not be the epicenter of the problem but it represents it quite well. They just elected the first black Mayor in their history so maybe she will help move things in the right direction. Quickly was poor word choice on my part, I understand there is no quick fix to this.

As for the second part... IDK, I know you are noting suggesting it but it leads one to believe there is nothing that can be done so might as well give up. Again, I am not accusing you of suggesting that, just that in conversations with people around me I do get a sense of (and I fecking hate this term) "it is what it is" and nothings going to change. Your point is spot on though, how 40-45% of Americans can look at this guy and see anything but a grotesque "human" being, I have no idea.

I totally get you, I felt very uncomfortable with that belief until I saw the following clip which somehow expressed what I thought deep down, I posted the entire documentary in the racism thread. I will even go as far as to tell you that black people are fighting a fight that isn't theirs to fight because there is nothing they can do to fix it, they can only highlight the issues but can't fix them.

 

[P-Ro]

Nowhere does it show the monument being defaced.

The replies to the tweet show the type of account you are sharing

Or perhaps I saw it in a comment section from a top tweet in the trending section.

 

[sebsheep]

Nowhere does it show the monument being defaced.

The replies to the tweet show the type of account you are sharing

Hey listen man, he's just quoting that well known marxist Barack Obama!

 

[syrian_scholes]

The replies to this tweet are disgusting.

 

[Rado_N]

Not sure who this guy is or how reliable he is, it only showed up on my timeline because Kumail Nanjiani RT’d it, but if that’s true what the absolute feck America

Edit: Bernie follows him so gonna go with him being legit