Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[adexkola]

What a moronic tweet that is. And I don't get all this defund the police business. Sure, if too much money is pumped into the police system then it should be decreased. But it doesn't seem to strike at the heart of the actual problem which is to do with mindset, leadership, processes, accountability etc

All that is bullshit because even the best meaning police departments kill innocent black people and are a vital cog of the prison industrial complex. Good people can still work harm in a fecked up system. And given that system has been brutal for over 100 years it's too late to say let's refurbish it. Tear the bitch down and let's start over, with the first aim of community service and actually protecting the public, not terrorizing it

And also, yes, too much money is spent on police to the detriment of other public services.

 

[adexkola]

This is a good idea. But it's more to do with better administration/development rather than tackling racism, isn't it?

What happens when good cops actively resist change/accountability through their powerful unions, assisted by prosecutors?

 

[dumbo]

Based on a few of his other tweets, it might be the case that he is saying that if you are speaking on the murder of a helpless black man, then you shouldn't be focusing support on maintaining a police presence in the same breath.

He might also be calling for a lawless society but it doesn't read that way to me. I could be wrong.

The "But" might suggest a conditional.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

I deleted it because I thought I'd regret it tbh, as soon as your views don't entirely align with the majority you get "racist" flung at you. It's absolutely disgusting behaviour.

It's this new far left movement going on now in society. Lots of social justice warriors if you don't say the politically "right" things all the time. For the record I'm on the left, but each year starting move towards the other side because of how this new far left is forming.

 

[Sky1981]

Does people really believe these Antifa bullshit?

Seriously this is banana republic level of scapegoating

 

[reelworld]

It's this new far left movement going on now in society. Lots of social justice warriors if you don't say the politically "right" things all the time. For the record I'm on the left, but each year starting move towards the other side because of how this new far left is forming.

you still haven't answered which part of Candace Owen argument you think is correct or worth debating.

 

[Bobcat]

Yeah defund the police

We've gutted other parts of the public sector for years and they do a better job than the police

I don't expect Biden to endorse it, it's not his decision anyway it's a local/state issue. Cut budgets in half and reassign to community development, mental health, the fire department, libraries, job placement... All that good shit

It needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. Between almost zero accountability and punishment for bad conduct, steady militarization and a pretty rotten culture its no wonder its gotten as bad as it has. What i find strange though is this weird obsession and glorification of law enforcement and military in America. "Stand for our troops and our police officers"

 

[amolbhatia50k]

All that is bullshit because even the best meaning police departments kill innocent black people and are a vital cog of the prison industrial complex. Good people can still work harm in a fecked up system. And given that system has been brutal for over 100 years it's too late to say let's refurbish it. Tear the bitch down and let's start over, with the first aim of community service and actually protecting the public, not terrorizing it

And also, yes, too much money is spent on police to the detriment of other public services.

What happens when good cops actively resist change/accountability through their powerful unions, assisted by prosecutors?

I don't know what happens. But the system has to be changed not done away with. Tearing it down just sounds like a fancy way of describing change and reform. Throttling the existing system out of spite isn't actually going to help nor will it be allowed to happen.

That's how it is everywhere. Our politicians are terrible here, but burning down the entire system is never the answer. It's a convenient fringe element answer. Not a reasonable and constructive one. Of course sometimes a jarring message which isn't practically proposed but intended to alarm, can work, but it can also be taken as the genuine view and reduce your (not your) argument.

 

[SirAnderson]

Guess protest fatigue is in full swing. Used to wake up every morning to at least 5 new pages on updates and the like, now it didn't even more off page 147.
Really hope the silence is down to the changes happening in the background!
Feck if it goes back to like nothing happened. Or just another "blip" in the era of United Facistrump of America.

 

[Wibble]

Blacks and Asians are more likely to go to university than whites in the UK.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ts-twice-likely-go-university-white-students/

It doesn't actually say that, referring only to "among the nation’s most deprived students", which is confusing because the data they state later doesn't seem to be restricted in this way. And there are all sorts of other effects e.g. retention/completion, grades, admittance to top end Unis and post graduate employment where being white is a big advantage.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Even without considering the usual, expected stuff (distraction from their own failings, right-wing reactionary tendencies etc), I find the government's overreaction to the statue-toppling to be completely bizarre. I mean, we have the PM, Home Secretary and other high-ups doing press conferences, Johnson writing newspaper articles about it and so on, while their MPs call for the 'full force of the law' to be applied to those responsible...for the overthrow of a piece of metal far away from London. What gives? It was hardly the first blow of a revolution or even that Colston was a figure of such Conservative standing that the politicians were bound to be appalled...

It’s a big old dead cat designed to make the people angry at the ‘left’.

Ultimately they want us talking about a stupid statue and not 60k dead/brexit about to bum us all.

 

[Zlaatan]

Some positive things are starting to happen in the US. That books on systemic racism are in high demand is probably the best news since it shows that people actually want to learn about this.

 

[Sara125]

I was specifically calling you out on your view that the UK is a racist country, name me a country which isn't a racist country going by your logic?

And yes go on, so the government are all racists too? So your labeling the conservative party a racist party? Is there a government or party that are not racist in the world according to you? Im just going by your logic here that these are very valid questions going by your line of thinking here

Why are you doing all this yes, the UK is a racist country I stand by what I said. Yes, the Conservative party are racist. I am not familiar with the nature of politics in every country or how racist they are. I am talking about the UK because I am from here and I am familiar with it. Plus the other poster said the UK is not a racist country which was what I initially responded to; I don’t understand why you are bringing up other countries or what your end goal here even is???

 

[balaks]

Why are you doing all this yes, the UK is a racist country I stand by what I said. Yes, the Conservative party are racist. I am not familiar with the nature of politics in every country or how racist they are. I am talking about the UK because I am from here and I am familiar with it. Plus the other poster said the UK is not a racist country which was what I initially responded to; I don’t understand why you are bringing up other countries or what your end goal here even is???

I disagree with this. Does the UK have racist people within it? Yes absolutely. Does this make the UK a 'racist country'? Absolutely not. We have laws in place to legislate against racism in the UK and generally it is one of the most multi-cultural countries in Europe. Let's not tar an entire country with one brush shall we?

 

[Sara125]

I agree with you except for the notion that were a racist country, I think it's insulting to the people of that nation who in the large majority are not racist. Do you describe even the most kindest of person a 'hateful person' because a few times in his life he demonstrated hate? Im just not comfortable with your and @Sara125 sweeping generalizations which is from a tiny minority.

Another one that seems to be unable to comprehend what is being said and wants to die on their hill of ignorance. No one is saying every single individual Brit is racist, even though a lot of the British public are though racism here usually presents itself more subtly than, say, America.

Do you know what institutional and systemic racisms are?

 

[villain]

I disagree with this. Does the UK have racist people within it? Yes absolutely. Does this make the UK a 'racist country'? Absolutely not. We have laws in place to legislate against racism in the UK and generally it is one of the most multi-cultural countries in Europe. Let's not tar an entire country with one brush shall we?

What exactly do you think racism is, that black and ethnic minorities have to deal with?

 

[Sara125]

I disagree with this. Does the UK have racist people within it? Yes absolutely. Does this make the UK a 'racist country'? Absolutely not. We have laws in place to legislate against racism in the UK and generally it is one of the most multi-cultural countries in Europe. Let's not tar an entire country with one brush shall we?

Omg. The UK is absolutely a racist country I have explained why. From individuals all the way up to the government. Also, you are saying it is one of the most multi-cultural countries but look at how a lot of Brits take to multiculturalism. They want ‘their Britain’ back.

 

[JPRouve]

I disagree with this. Does the UK have racist people within it? Yes absolutely. Does this make the UK a 'racist country'? Absolutely not. We have laws in place to legislate against racism in the UK and generally it is one of the most multi-cultural countries in Europe. Let's not tar an entire country with one brush shall we?

What do you mean by that in the context of racism/xenophobia?

 

[Withnail]

It's this new far left movement going on now in society. Lots of social justice warriors if you don't say the politically "right" things all the time. For the record I'm on the left, but each year starting move towards the other side because of how this new far left is forming.

Totally off topic but be careful of the YouTube rabbit holes you go down if you're susceptible to believing stuff like that plandemic thing.

That video can easily be debunked by a bit of googling as can most conspiracy theories. When videos are taken down it's usually for spreading misinformation rather than censorship because 'they' don't want you to know something. Anyone claiming a cover up/conspiracy should be treated with healthy amount of scepticism imo, until there's verified proof.
I mean the papers love a real cover up story and there's been plenty of exposés and whistleblowers over the years so the idea that all of the media worldwide would all be in on it is bizarre.

But I digress, do be careful though. I've a couple of people who used to be in my social circle and started talking along the lines you are and are now full on 5G causes cancer/George Soros and the UN are in league with the govt and also funding antifa activists/Chemtrails are poisoning us/911 was an inside job/we need a revolution crackpots.

 

[balaks]

Omg. The UK is absolutely a racist country I have explained why. From individuals all the way up to the government. Also, you are saying it is one of the most multi-cultural countries but look at how a lot of Brits take to multiculturalism. They want ‘their Britain’ back.

I think it's unfair and untrue to say the entire country is racist.

 

[Cardboard elk]

Political correctness is a huge problem imo. But so is racism. Both can exist at the same time. Extremes are seldom good.

 

[Sara125]

I think it's unfair and untrue to say the entire country is racist.

I think from now on I’m just going to have to agree to disagree with people because I sound like a broken record constantly explaining the same thing...

 

[balaks]

I think from now on I’m just going to have to agree to disagree with people because I sound like a broken record constantly explaining the same thing...

That's fine - I'm just expressing my own opinion on it - I just hate seeing sweeping statements tarring millions of people with the same brush. You think otherwise and that's fine. I'm not looking an argument just expressing my own opinion.

 

[JPRouve]

you still haven't answered which part of Candace Owen argument you think is correct or worth debating.

You asked the question several times so I will answer, none of it. The premise is by itself wrong, the police aren't executioners, they are not supposed to kill people outside of self defense or if someone is an immediate threat to others and there is no other options. From the moment she focuses on George Floyd's past instead of focusing on the fact that the officers had him cuffed and should have put him in their car way before he died, she is basically making the point that the police can ignore the judicial system, that they can be judges and executioners. Whether Floyd was a good person or not is irrelevant, whether he was going to turn things around was also irrelevant.

 

[JPRouve]

Political correctness is a huge problem imo. But so is racism. Both can exist at the same time. Extremes are seldom good.

What has political correctness got to do with this and at which point did you tell yourself that it was a good idea to put racism and political correctness in the same sentence?

 

[villain]

I think from now on I’m just going to have to agree to disagree with people because I sound like a broken record constantly explaining the same thing...

And then when we are angry or upset due to a lifetime of such infuriating interactions on top of having to live with the racism in the first place - we're told that our behaviour won't 'help our cause'
You have to laugh.

 

[Sara125]

And then when we are angry or upset due to a lifetime of such infuriating interactions on top of having to live with the racism in the first place - we're told that our behaviour won't 'help our cause'
You have to laugh.

Honestly villain it’s so tiring!

 

[balaks]

And then when we are angry or upset due to a lifetime of such infuriating interactions on top of having to live with the racism in the first place - we're told that our behaviour won't 'help our cause'
You have to laugh.

I wholeheartedly agree with the protests (with social distancing please) and I think it's disgusting what happened in America and I have no doubt that black people experience racism throughout their lives which is awful. You have my full support. I just don't think it's fair to say an entire country is racist. That is just my own opinion.

 

[villain]

Honestly villain it’s so tiring!

The gaslighting is enough to turn you mad, and that's not even the main issue!

 

[villain]

I wholeheartedly agree with the protests (with social distancing please) and I think it's disgusting what happened in America and I have no doubt that black people experience racism throughout their lives which is awful. You have my full support. I just don't think it's fair to say an entire country is racist. That is just my own opinion.

I'm more interested in what you think racism is.

 

[The Boy]

I think it's unfair and untrue to say the entire country is racist.

Tbf @Sara125 is not saying the entire country is racist. Read back through the thread or look up systemic and institutionalised racism. It doesn't mean Britain is full of gun toting racist nuts, it doesn't mean we have signs that say no blacks no Irish anymore and it doesn't mean that Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins are in anyway representative of the British people.

It means very simply that if you are a person of colour there are far more hurdles and obstacles in the system. It means there is a glass ceiling that white people don't have to struggle with in the same way and it is in every walk of life. There's a trend of under representation in just about every public body in the UK.

For example, just look at football managers and coaches, Raheem Sterling pointed out yesterday ex players getting jobs, Lampard goes to Derby then Chelsea and Gerrard straight to Rangers versus Sol Campbell at Macclesfield and then Southend and Ashley Cole on the coaching staff for the U15s at Chelsea - why? they all played for England, all understand the game, they've all done the same coaching badges. Why was Chris Hughton the only black manager in the prem? I dont know the stats but I'd make a rough guess that about a third of players are black. Where's the representation, why don't black people get the jobs? Systemic racism is why. And it is the same in almost any industry you care to look at.

The trouble is people do not like to see their country painted like this and find it difficult to accept because they do not think they are racist themselves and look back at the 70s and 80s and see how far we've come as a nation, I understand that. And that's true we have, overt and open racism has definitely dropped since then, but systemic and institutionalised are still a massive problem. That's been a huge part of these protests and we need to recognise it in the system and in ourselves and overcome it.

 

[balaks]

I'm more interested in what you think racism is.

Well it's hard for me to say as a white NI bloke who hasn't experienced it - I have however experienced some sectarianism in my life which may be comparable to some degree. To me when I think about racism it's a mixture of things - cultural bias towards one race, unconscious and conscious bias towards one group and unconscious and conscious negativity against another - lack of opportunity in certain areas which tend to contain particular groups of people from same background - lack of jobs, poor schools - more challenging for people from certain backgrounds to get into certain careers (police, government, etc.) and positions of influence. A lack of a voice/representation probably too, the feeling that people feel that your life matters less than others. That's just the tip of the iceberg I'm sure but all I can do is imagine it and it's not a pleasant thing to do.

 

[Sara125]

Tbf @Sara125 is not saying the entire country is racist. Read back through the thread or look up systemic and institutionalised racism. It doesn't mean Britain is full of gun toting racist nuts, it doesn't mean we have signs that say no blacks no Irish anymore and it doesn't mean that Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins are in anyway representative of the British people.

It means very simply that if you are a person of colour there are far more hurdles and obstacles in the system. It means there is a glass ceiling that white people don't have to struggle with in the same way and it is in every walk of life. There's a trend of under representation in just about every public body in the UK.

For example, just look at football managers and coaches, Raheem Sterling pointed out yesterday ex players getting jobs, Lampard goes to Derby then Chelsea and Gerrard straight to Rangers versus Sol Campbell at Macclesfield and then Southend and Ashley Cole on the coaching staff for the U15s at Chelsea - why? they all played for England, all understand the game, they've all done the same coaching badges. Why was Chris Hughton the only black manager in the prem? I dont know the stats but I'd make a rough guess that about a third of players are black. Where's the representation, why don't black people get the jobs? Systemic racism is why. And it is the same in almost any industry you care to look at.

The trouble is people do not like to see their country painted like this and find it difficult to accept because they do not think they are racist themselves and look back at the 70s and 80s and see how far we've come as a nation, I understand that. And that's true we have, overt and open racism has definitely dropped since then, but systemic and institutionalised are still a massive problem. That's been a huge part of these protests and we need to recognise it in the system and in ourselves and overcome it.

God bless you!

 

[villain]

Well it's hard for me to say as a white NI bloke who hasn't experienced it - I have however experienced some sectarianism in my life which may be comparable to some degree. To me when I think about racism it's a mixture of things - cultural bias towards one race, unconscious and conscious bias towards one group and unconscious and conscious negativity against another - lack of opportunity in certain areas which tend to contain groups - lack of jobs, poor schools - more challenging for people from certain backgrounds to get into certain careers (police, government, etc.) and positions of influence. A lack of a voice/representation probably too, the feeling that people feel that your life matters less than others. That's just the tip of the iceberg I'm sure but all I can do is imagine it and it's not a pleasant thing to do.

You're far more aware than I gave you credit for, which just causes even more confusion as to how you can acknowledge these things - but insist Britain isn't racist.
That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[balaks]

Tbf @Sara125 is not saying the entire country is racist. Read back through the thread or look up systemic and institutionalised racism. It doesn't mean Britain is full of gun toting racist nuts, it doesn't mean we have signs that say no blacks no Irish anymore and it doesn't mean that Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins are in anyway representative of the British people.

It means very simply that if you are a person of colour there are far more hurdles and obstacles in the system. It means there is a glass ceiling that white people don't have to struggle with in the same way and it is in every walk of life. There's a trend of under representation in just about every public body in the UK.

For example, just look at football managers and coaches, Raheem Sterling pointed out yesterday ex players getting jobs, Lampard goes to Derby then Chelsea and Gerrard straight to Rangers versus Sol Campbell at Macclesfield and then Southend and Ashley Cole on the coaching staff for the U15s at Chelsea - why? they all played for England, all understand the game, they've all done the same coaching badges. Why was Chris Hughton the only black manager in the prem? I dont know the stats but I'd make a rough guess that about a third of players are black. Where's the representation, why don't black people get the jobs? Systemic racism is why. And it is the same in almost any industry you care to look at.

The trouble is people do not like to see their country painted like this and find it difficult to accept because they do not think they are racist themselves and look back at the 70s and 80s and see how far we've come as a nation, I understand that. And that's true we have, overt and open racism has definitely dropped since then, but systemic and institutionalised are still a massive problem. That's been a huge part of these protests and we need to recognise it in the system and in ourselves and overcome it.

That's a good post and I totally get what you are saying - maybe I'm just not happy at the wording that was used - 'the UK is racist' - I can't agree with that - 'the UK's society has a problem with institutional and systemic racism' I can get behind because I'm sure it's true.

 

[Fortitude]

It's pretty evident from the constant loop on almost every page of this thread that the concept of what the layers of racism actually are is the first thing in need of broad, educational address - I feel this is causing friction in and of itself before the subject matter even gets round to being discussed at any meaningful level with both parties feeling they are getting short shrift and not having their voices heard or acknowledged.

In such a fast-moving thread, the explanations of what systemic, implicit and institutional racism is, or looks like, is lost on the next person(s) coming into the thread and saying such and such a country is not racist and that it is wrong to paint it with such broad strokes.

Perhaps a sticky with certain posts and links to them would be of great help.

 

[JPRouve]

Well it's hard for me to say as a white NI bloke who hasn't experienced it - I have however experienced some sectarianism in my life which may be comparable to some degree. To me when I think about racism it's a mixture of things - cultural bias towards one race, unconscious and conscious bias towards one group and unconscious and conscious negativity against another - lack of opportunity in certain areas which tend to contain particular groups of people from same background - lack of jobs, poor schools - more challenging for people from certain backgrounds to get into certain careers (police, government, etc.) and positions of influence. A lack of a voice/representation probably too, the feeling that people feel that your life matters less than others. That's just the tip of the iceberg I'm sure but all I can do is imagine it and it's not a pleasant thing to do.

And if you ask people from minorities in the UK, they will most likely mention all of these things, which was @Sara125's point. Most of what you mentioned goes under systemic racism and it applies to the UK, yesterday I was thinking about the Home office hostile environment policy, they didn't even hide their feelings when they named the policy. The policy has been rightfully criticized but the simple fact that high profile politicians and civil servants believed that it was acceptable tells you what the mentality at the top of the UK is when it comes to foreigners and minorities.

 

[balaks]

You're far more aware than I gave you credit for, which just causes even more confusion as to how you can acknowledge these things - but insist Britain isn't racist.
That doesn't make sense to me.

I just don't like statements like 'the UK is racist' - I can agree completely that certain people within the UK are racist and that the society as a whole may be intuitionally and systemically racist in many ways all of which needs to change and I hope that it will. I just don't like big statements like that because it is a cop out from actually saying what you really mean.

 

[balaks]

It's pretty evident from the constant loop on almost every page of this thread that the concept of what the layers of racism actually are is the first thing in need of broad, educational address - I feel this is causing friction in and of itself before the subject matter even gets round to being discussed at any meaningful level with both parties feeling they are getting short shrift and not having their voices heard or acknowledged.

In such a fast-moving thread, the explanations of what systemic, implicit and institutional racism is, or looks like, is lost on the next person(s) coming into the thread and saying such and such a country is not racist and that it is wrong to paint it with such broad strokes.

Perhaps a sticky with certain posts and links to them would be of great help.

Apologies I maybe should have explored the thread a bit more before jumping in.

 

[balaks]

And if you ask people from minorities in the UK, they will most likely mention all of these things, which was @Sara125's point. Most of what you mentioned goes under systemic racism and it applies to the UK, yesterday I was thinking about the Home office hostile environment policy, they didn't even hide their feelings when they named the policy. The policy has been rightfully criticized but the simple fact that high profile politicians and civil servants believed that it was acceptable tells you what the mentality at the top of the UK is when it comes to foreigners and minorities.

Yeah I agree - if you talk to my Catholic brothers and sisters here in NI they will give you many examples throughout their lives when they have felt oppressed. I'm a prod which essentially makes me the ultimate white bloke and the worst possible person to talk about racism or oppression in any form because generally I've been fortunate enough to not experience it. I listen though and have some wonderful friends who are 'themuns' and I hate any sort of oppression or injustice but I also have to acknowledge that I can never really know what it means and although I can empathise and support their movements against it I remain part of the problem in some way.