Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[adexkola]

A protest can and should remain peaceful. If a protest becomes a riot you lose the moral high ground and engage in actions that cannot and should not be justified.

I was just reading about a white woman in the NY protests who has been arrested and charged with attempted murder for throwing a Molotov cocktail at a police car with four officers inside. I mean WTF.

You’re welcome to your opinion mate. At the crux of it all, we can agree that cop was a murderer and George Floyd and many other black men deserve justice, but this rioting will not get it. If anything it will result in protestors and cops alike being either murdered or thrown in jail for other acts of senseless violence.

FOH, lose the moral high ground in who's eyes? Anyone who places the police above the protesters and looters, I'm not interested in their moral standard. Maybe if the protesters started killing innocent people you'd have a point.

You've yet to tell me what will get justice. I know you don't have an answer but who knows I've been corrected before.

I think there are deep rooted problems within American culture and society which have allowed aspects of the police in that country to become a paramilitary machine. Laws around guns don't help and I must say I've been pretty shocked by a number of videos published in recent days with regards to how the police have been dealing with things and I don't think law enforcement's in the US has painted itself in a good picture in the slightest. That said I'm not as naive as some to carte blanche refuse to accept there's any good good officers in the States as there obviously will be. If there isn't then it means American society is totally screwed given the police are recruited from the very pool of people they serve.

The country needs change but is there appetite for it? Voting in Trump and refusing to give up firearms under Obama suggests not. If multiple racist attacks and high school shootings don't make you want real change I'm not sure what will. This has gone on far too long.

It's not about individual cops, it's about a system that created police units to suppress the labor movement, hunt down runaway slaves, and suppress Italian/Irish minorities in booming US cities turn of the century. Today's police departments at the local and state level are descendants of those units, and have never let go of that warrior mentality weaponized against black people today.

There are good and incompetent people in every profession, and the expectation is not for every cop to turn good all of a sudden. It's to get rid of a system that enables flagrantly bad cops to kill and maim, and provides incentives for this sort of behavior to continue.

 

[villain]

I guess when a lie is repeated so much, it eventually becomes true.

Somehow, a country founded on slavery and the extermination of native people, has actually been founded on true justice.

Honestly, the gaslighting of America's history in the last few 100 years alone is reason enough for minorities to feel enraged, that's before you get into the actual injustice.

 

[JPRouve]

Oh wow, the moral high ground. You wouldn't want to lose that, would you? And when in the history of anything has having the moral high ground ever changed anything for the better?

"My brother is dead but my moral standards are intact. That's a win."

 

[TheReligion]

That there is a police brutality issue in the UK.

Now go hurry and look for your mate 'devil' and his mate 'advocate' while you try to thing of reasons to deny this.

So a 7 second clip of an incident you or I know nothing about proves police throughout the UK are racist and brutalise people. Right okay.

What part of police procedure is thumping a man's head?

Do you want a proper answer to this? You can punch someone in the head or even in the bollocks if you prefer. It's all about using reasonable force which is proportionate, lawful, appropriate and necessary. From a 7 second clip I can't give a full opinion on ihim punching the guy (most appears to be hammer fists to his back BTW) even though it looks excessive.

 

[Revan]

This isn’t really the thread for it but this is entirely untrue.

Of course it is untrue. Just rehashed propaganda.

Some countries did far better than others. Vietnam who shares a border with China has 0 deaths, the US has 105K. Some countries did far better than others (with far less resources), it was not matter of luck.

Anyway, as you said, it is not the thread for this.

 

[adexkola]

Very apt response. I'm looking for a good Kumbaya video that posters can play while reading that wall of rubbish.

 

[TheReligion]

This isn’t really the thread for it but this is entirely untrue.

This is why there should be an inquiry post incident.

 

[Redlambs]

The moral high ground?

Yeah, that went well vs a racist arsehole cop who had the actual high ground and a knee to the fecking throat.


It's ok though, the dead man had the moral high ground because he wasn't violent back.

 

[Heardy]

I give up - I genuinely can’t see how people think rioting will get results.

all I see happening are people dying or fecking up their lives if they get caught, arrested and charged.

just seen a video in Rochester Ny of an older husband and wife beaten with 2x4s for protecting their store from “protestors”.

How they will help the US government realise there is a problem if institutional racism I have no fecking idea.

 

[villain]

Very apt response. I'm looking for a good Kumbaya video that posters can play while reading that wall of rubbish.

I was honestly expecting a MLK quote about how he wouldn't have stood for this.

 

[TheReligion]

It's not about individual cops, it's about a system that created police units to suppress the labor movement, hunt down runaway slaves, and suppress Italian/Irish minorities in booming US cities turn of the century. Today's police departments at the local and state level are descendants of those units, and have never let go of that warrior mentality weaponized against black people today.

There are good and incompetent people in every profession, and the expectation is not for every cop to turn good all of a sudden. It's to get rid of a system that enables flagrantly bad cops to kill and maim, and provides incentives for this sort of behavior to continue.

I don't disagree. I also believe there has to be changes to America society on the whole as to get rid of that very system means doing more than focusing on the police alone in my opinion. It runs much deeper than that.

 

[Rado_N]

This is why there should be an inquiry post incident.

We don’t need an enquiry to tell us that Trump ignored the warnings given to him during the transition of the risk of a pandemic and that he disbanded the US Govt. Pandemic Response unit.

To make any suggestion that nobody could have seen this coming is a lie, plain and simple.

 

[Heardy]

The moral high ground?

Yeah, that went well vs a racist arsehole cop who had the actual high ground and a knee to the fecking throat.


It's ok though, the dead man had the moral high ground because he wasn't violent back.

you think these protestors are going to scare the government into acting? Trump will send in the national guard or army ffs.

Violence isn’t the answer! The protestors need everyone behind them because things need to change but how can people condone such mindless violence. That was my point about morale high ground - you need people behind the cause, not in shock at seeing young men and women acting like they want to turn their city into a mad max movie

 

[Silva]

this would have to last about 400 years and get a whole lot more intense before the protesters lose the moral highground

 

[JPRouve]

And it's not just about George Floyd. It's also about Amy Cooper and Ahmad Arbery, it's about a system that effectively creative a context where some white folks are convinced that they can take someones life or threaten their freedom based on the color of their own skin.

 

[George Owen]

I give up - I genuinely can’t see how people think rioting will get results.

all I see happening are people dying or fecking up their lives if they get caught, arrested and charged.

just seen a video in Rochester Ny of an older husband and wife beaten with 2x4s for protecting their store from “protestors”.

How they will help the US government realise there is a problem if institutional racism I have no fecking idea.

Just wait and see.

 

[Revan]

I give up - I genuinely can’t see how people think rioting will get results.

all I see happening are people dying or fecking up their lives if they get caught, arrested and charged.

just seen a video in Rochester Ny of an older husband and wife beaten with 2x4s for protecting their store from “protestors”.

How they will help the US government realise there is a problem if institutional racism I have no fecking idea.

The thing that you are failing to see is that the people were actually dying and their lives were being destroyed cause of the crime of being born black.

People who have not been part of the oppressed society often fail to see that these types of protests is the last option. These guys have nothing to lose, the possibility of being killed, maimed or their lives being destroyed in these protests is not different to the possibility of them being killed, maimed or their life being destroyed in any day, cause some cop with a small penis decides to do so.

 

[villain]

I give up - I genuinely can’t see how people think rioting will get results.

all I see happening are people dying or fecking up their lives if they get caught, arrested and charged.

just seen a video in Rochester Ny of an older husband and wife beaten with 2x4s for protecting their store from “protestors”.

How they will help the US government realise there is a problem if institutional racism I have no fecking idea.

Wait till you see the violence committed to millions of enslaved africans and native americans over 100's of years, that to this day, hasn't been reconciled at the hands of the very system that you're suggesting has any kind of morality towards minorities.

The US Government understands there's a problem of institutional racism.
The US Government has sanctioned dozens of murders & hundreds of attacks against minority communities.

Seriously, I'm sure your heart is in the right place but it comes across like you don't know your American history.

 

[Silva]

you think these protestors are going to scare the government into acting? Trump will send in the national guard or army ffs.

Violence isn’t the answer! The protestors need everyone behind them because things need to change but how can people condone such mindless violence. That was my point about morale high ground - you need people behind the cause, not in shock at seeing young men and women acting like they want to turn their city into a mad max movie

nah, you're just a racist who wants to obfuscate and it's very easy to see through

 

[GiddyUp]

So a 7 second clip of an incident you or I know nothing about proves police throughout the UK are racist and brutalise people. Right okay.



Do you want a proper answer to this? You can punch someone in the head or even in the bollocks if you prefer. It's all about using reasonable force which is proportionate, lawful, appropriate and necessary. From a 7 second clip I can't give a full opinion on ihim punching the guy (most appears to be hammer fists to his back BTW) even though it looks excessive.

I think you need to take a days break from this thread. Thinks are too heated right now and in my opinion you are not been doing yourself any favors over the last few pages. Your input is invaluable to this thread and your posts are the ones I've paid most attention to but take a breather pal.
We are sick of police brutality and corruption in all its forms right now and we want change so I feel people are frustrated with you because you are now putting a coppers spin on everything.

 

[Cascarino]

A protest can and should remain peaceful. If a protest becomes a riot you lose the moral high ground and engage in actions that cannot and should not be Justified

What does losing the moral high ground mean in this instance? Does it mean now that I’ve watched a few clips of the riots I think, actually, I was against racially charged police brutality, but now I think that I’m ok with it.

You’re welcome to your opinion mate. At the crux of it all, we can agree that cop was a murderer and George Floyd and many other black men deserve justice, but this rioting will not get it. If anything it will result in protestors and cops alike being either murdered or thrown in jail for other acts of senseless violence.

It’s making a wave though. I hope no one gets killed, or hurt. By keeping the status quo though, how many have been hurt by that? Inaction can be the most brutal choice of all. As oppressed people rose up and cast off their chains, would you have told them to put down their weapons, that nothing but a peaceful resolution would work? To give it time?

 

[TheReligion]

We don’t need an enquiry to tell us that Trump ignored the warnings given to him during the transition of the risk of a pandemic and that he disbanded the US Govt. Pandemic Response unit.

To make any suggestion that nobody could have seen this coming is a lie, plain and simple.

I wasn't aware of the Pandemic Unit. It can't be a lie if I didn't know that was the case. Anyway there should always be an inquiry otherwise theres no accountability, transparency and wider learning.

 

[Revan]

And it's not just about George Floyd. It's also about Amy Cooper and Ahmad Arbery, it's about a system that effectively creative a context where some white folks are convinced that they can take someones life or threaten their freedom based on the color of their own skin.

It’s about the system, Floyd and Cooper are just figureheads (of being killed for no reason, and of being threaten to call the police cause you’re black). It is just the culmination of 400 years of oppression.

 

[Heardy]

Wait till you see the violence committed to millions of enslaved africans and native americans over 100's of years, that to this day, hasn't been reconciled at the hands of the very system that you're suggesting has any kind of morality towards minorities.

The US Government understands there's a problem of institutional racism.
The US Government has sanctioned dozens of murders & hundreds of attacks against minority communities.

Seriously, I'm sure your heart is in the right place but it comes across like you don't know your American history.

I don’t know it and I am not saying that there isn’t just cause, I just fail to see how the riots will achieve any sort of intended outcome.

 

[Redlambs]

I give up - I genuinely can’t see how people think rioting will get results.

all I see happening are people dying or fecking up their lives if they get caught, arrested and charged.

just seen a video in Rochester Ny of an older husband and wife beaten with 2x4s for protecting their store from “protestors”.

How they will help the US government realise there is a problem if institutional racism I have no fecking idea.

Who is saying "rioting" will get results? It's like you automatically think these protests were deliberately turned into riots by the people out there. Like there's no other forces at play, like the cops aren't escalating themselves, like Trump isn't adding fuel to the fire.

What people who actually live that life are saying, people the likes of you and I should fecking well listen too, is that every other option continually fails. And when those options fail, and people die, what else is left?

you think these protesters are going to scare the government into acting? Trump will send in the national guard or army ffs.

Violence isn’t the answer! The protesters need everyone behind them because things need to change but how can people condone such mindless violence. That was my point about morale high ground - you need people behind the cause, not in shock at seeing young men and women acting like they want to turn their city into a mad max movie

So now it's "protesters" and not "rioters"

Dude, take a step back and see how your own thoughts are muddled on this.

 

[Heardy]

Just wait and see.

What are you expecting to happen?

 

[SteveJ]

There's something tremendously wrong about societies that are in endless need of enquiries. Too often, these are efforts to shape a story for the masses & attempts to get the culprits' stories straight before offering up expendable scapegoats, rather than the resolve to change the things that lead to the enquiries.

 

[Rado_N]

White people trying to tell black people how they should react to their oppression would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

Kaepernick and some of his colleagues tried to peacefully and respectfully protest against police brutality in a public and the President of the United States called them sons of bitches and unpatriotic and said they should get out of the country if they don’t like their lot.

I mean for feck sake.

 

[GiddyUp]

I give up - I genuinely can’t see how people think rioting will get results.

all I see happening are people dying or fecking up their lives if they get caught, arrested and charged.

just seen a video in Rochester Ny of an older husband and wife beaten with 2x4s for protecting their store from “protestors”.

How they will help the US government realise there is a problem if institutional racism I have no fecking idea.

No sympathy for protesters getting fecking creamed by police all over the country?

 

[Cascarino]

I don’t know it and I am not saying that there isn’t just cause, I just fail to see how the riots will achieve any sort of intended outcome.

The people who have been turned away from the cause by the last few nights, were never with it in the first place

 

[Cloud7]

you think these protestors are going to scare the government into acting? Trump will send in the national guard or army ffs.

Violence isn’t the answer! The protestors need everyone behind them because things need to change but how can people condone such mindless violence. That was my point about morale high ground - you need people behind the cause, not in shock at seeing young men and women acting like they want to turn their city into a mad max movie

For the most part what I'm seeing for these people is support. Overwhelming support not just from America, but all over the world. The people who are looking at this in shock are the same people who probably don't see Floyd being killed as any big deal, or understand why this had to be done. The people looking on in shock were never going to get behind this cause in the first place.

 

[Rado_N]

I wasn't aware of the Pandemic Unit. It can't be a lie if I didn't know that was the case. Anyway there should always be an inquiry otherwise theres no accountability, transparency and wider learning.

I didn’t say there shouldn’t be one, I said we don’t need one to know those facts.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

How they will help the US government realise there is a problem if institutional racism I have no fecking idea.

Loss of lives, property damage, disruption to business.

None of which makes for good PR and enough of it will force politicians and corporations to get off their arses and make some changes.

Of course, given what we know, it’s likely that the changes will be reactionary, with more police brutality and martial law being declared, but at least that may force the pearl clutchers like you to finally pick a side.

 

[sammsky1]

That’s all well and good except your country was founded on a bunch of rich white slave owners rebelling against their British overlords because they didn’t want to pay more tax. The country was literally born out of the American revolution. Due process never had any place there, and America was never founded on any principle of equality.
As for the good cops thing, that’s such a tired cliche. If you’re a good cop, you don’t sit by while abuses of power take place all around you. If there’s one racist in the office who abuses his power and targets black people, and nine other officers who don’t, but know that this officer does it, then there are ten bad officers as far as I’m concerned.
This was a really nice, chest thumping way of saying “We’re all in this together, let’s hold hands and get along and figure out a peaceful way through this” but that exact line of thinking hasn’t work for the past few decades, so people can be excused for thinking that it won’t do much good now.

It's very difficult to learn enough history to understand why we are where we are, let alone before agenda driven groups whitewash history to shape their own narrative.

One of the most vivid experiences of my life was watching 'Roots' as a young child on TV. Those feelings permanently educated me to feel like I do. And I'm glad Netflix recently produced a new version of that story. Tarrantino did an excellent job too with Django Unchained. Ditto the recent Godfather of Harlem about Bumpy Johnson and Malcolm X. Many many more in between.

I hope cultural story tellers continue to educate all about USA's history of black citizen oppression, and explain simply why we are where we are.

 

[Silva]

White people trying to tell black people how they should react to their oppression would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

Kaepernick and some of his colleagues tried to peacefully and respectfully protest against police brutality in a public and the President of the United States called them sons of bitches and unpatriotic and said they should get out of the country if they don’t like their lot.

I mean for feck sake.

Kaepernick lost his job over it

 

[TheReligion]

I think you need to take a days break from this thread. Thinks are too heated right now and in my opinion you are not been doing yourself any favors over the last few pages. Your input is invaluable to this thread and your posts are the ones I've paid most attention to but take a breather pal.
We are sick of police brutality and corruption in all its forms right now and we want change so I feel people are frustrated with you because you are now putting a coppers spin on everything.

Yeah you're likely right. I don't think anyone wants to hear a different view right now which is fair enough given how emotionally involved some posters will be about all of this. I've been quite critical of the police, as others have noted, but it does feel that anyone who doesn't wish to go with the "pro-riot hate everything to do with the police" line simply gets abuse irrespective of the points they wish to make.

 

[JPRouve]

I don’t know it and I am not saying that there isn’t just cause, I just fail to see how the riots will achieve any sort of intended outcome.

And people have told you multiple times that decades of peacefull protests have achieved nothing. It's a bit like looking at french revolution and suggesting that a peaceful protest would have been more efficient, they tried and it didn't work. Rioting will most likely not work because the system is rotten and completely controlled by the sources of the unrest but being peaceful won't and hasn't worked at all.

 

[Redlambs]

I don’t know it and I am not saying that there isn’t just cause, I just fail to see how the riots will achieve any sort of intended outcome.

And you can't also see how this is such a weak answer.

Instead of telling these people what they SHOULDN'T be doing, maybe you should look at why they ARE doing.

White people trying to tell black people how they should react to their oppression would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

Kaepernick and some of his colleagues tried to peacefully and respectfully protest against police brutality in a public and the President of the United States called them sons of bitches and unpatriotic and said they should get out of the country if they don’t like their lot.

I mean for feck sake.

I mean...what the hell. I wouldn't mind, people aren't expected to know everything about everything, but what gets me is the actual push back!

 

[SilentWitness]

It seemed as though you were suggesting the issues in both countries are on an equal footing.

No. Just that the USA is a nation built on racism which is why it is still rife within the country as it has never been addressed and the UK is a nation which actively took part in colonising large parts of the world and that was in part due to racism. And guess what? That racism is still rife within the UK and its establishments because it hasn't been addressed. When people say that the police are racist in the USA or the UK or wherever - they aren't labelling the individuals in the police as racist. They are labelling the system which the police is under as racist as there is proven bias and a system which is a safe haven for people to hold these views as there has been no major changes to it.

I’d bet the US is far more disproportionate relative to the UK.

im not saying that black people/minorities are not subject to racism in the UK and racism is abhorrent - no argument.

If people are protesting in London today - that’s directly because they see similar in the US and they’re jumping in the bandwagon and using it as an excuse. It cheapens their argument.

I’d love to see racism eradicated, but rioting and destroying innocent businesses etc is bullshit.

And? Things need to have a catalyst to force change. These protests in the US wouldn't have happened without the Cooper or Floyd incidents, but they happened and they were a catalyst for the protests to take place. Why is that an issue exactly? If black people are being physically and emotionally opressed in the US then there is no doubt that those biases will trickle along to other nations - even more so now due to the power of Twitter, the media and the internet. There is no cheapening of an argument or losing moral standing when it comes to being racially oppressed ffs.

 

[RedPed]

I love how the people making the most noise about the protests and riots are the good old coppers and the privileged who have never experienced true discrimination most probably.