Protests following the killing of George Floyd

balaks said:
I just don't like statements like 'the UK is racist' - I can agree completely that certain people within the UK are racist and that the society as a whole may be intuitionally and systemically racist in many ways all of which needs to change and I hope that it will. I just don't like big statements like that because it is a cop out from actually saying what you really mean.
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I think it's only seen as a cop out because there's a lack of understanding as to what racism is - the likes of Katie Hopkins/Stephen Yaxley/Daily Mail etc co-opt these statements and use propaganda to deter from the actual issue. Plus there's a discomfort in criticising a country/society you're born in to.
That's fair and understandable, but at some point if Britain truly isn't racist, there really shouldn't be an issue discussing race.

Nobody enjoys talking about racism, but it's far more comfortable talking about it, learning about it and trying to shape it - than having to experience it. The more open we are to dialog and uncomfortable discussions, the more inclusive we truly become.
 
villain said:
I think it's only seen as a cop out because there's a lack of understanding as to what racism is - the likes of Katie Hopkins/Stephen Yaxley/Daily Mail etc co-opt these statements and use propaganda to deter from the actual issue. Plus there's a discomfort in criticising a country/society you're born in to.
That's fair and understandable, but at some point if Britain truly isn't racist, there really shouldn't be an issue discussing race.

Nobody enjoys talking about racism, but it's far more comfortable talking about it, learning about it and trying to shape it - than having to experience it. The more open we are to dialog and uncomfortable discussions, the more inclusive we truly become.
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Without a doubt.
 
balaks said:
Apologies I maybe should have explored the thread a bit more before jumping in.
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There's no need to apologise for anything - like I said, if you don't keep up with this thread, you can miss literal pages of posts, and within those, filtering out the whataboutisms, squabbles and so forth, a number of quality, extensive posts that provide insight and answer questions, or counter statements that are repeating on themselves.

That's probably why a reference sticky note of some of those posts could be helpful.
 
balaks said:
I just don't like statements like 'the UK is racist' - I can agree completely that certain people within the UK are racist and that the society as a whole may be intuitionally and systemically racist in many ways all of which needs to change and I hope that it will. I just don't like big statements like that because it is a cop out from actually saying what you really mean.
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For me that statement is a valid one where the majority or leading government of the day which is undoubtedly racist has been democratically elected. Governments which openly practice racist rhetoric, want to maintain the status quo and enable institutional racism. Likewise in the USA.

For me what these blanket statements achieve is giving a wake up call to the minority who are not racist that they are just that, a minority and therefore a lot of work has to be done for anti-racism to be the norm.

I don't think anyone in the 90's would have said the UK is racist but right now I would say the country is more racist than it is anti-racist on the whole. You could say that is unfair and harsh but unless the country proves itself otherwise through its leadership choices for example, the presumption has not been rebutted.
 
balaks said:
Yeah I agree - if you talk to my Catholic brothers and sisters here in NI they will give you many examples throughout their lives when they have felt oppressed. I'm a prod which essentially makes me the ultimate white bloke and the worst possible person to talk about racism or oppression in any form because generally I've been fortunate enough to not experience it. I listen though and have some wonderful friends who are 'themuns' and I hate any sort of oppression or injustice but I also have to acknowledge that I can never really know what it means and although I can empathise and support their movements against it I remain part of the problem in some way.
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You are not and it's not a good thing to see things negatively like that, that's how one ends up being too defensive when the question of racism is raised. You are part of the solution by contributing to an inclusive society and help educate your relatives and kids, that's the only thing that society can and should expect from you and everybody else on all social issues.
 
Sara125 said:
God bless you!
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Don’t worry in a couple of pages someone will have to explain it again!

But in a positive light this is what all this is about, huge swathes of the population in the UK and USA and other countries have been completely unaware or only vaguely aware of this as it doesn’t affect them. That’s changing now and the whole rigged system is being exposed to more and more people. That can only be a good thing.
 
JPRouve said:
You are not and it's not a good thing to see things negatively like that, that's how one ends up being too defensive when the question of racism is raised. You are part of the solution by contributing to an inclusive society and help educate your relatives and kids, that's the only thing that society can and should expect from you and everybody else on all social issues.
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That is a nice thought thanks. I can certainly try my best.
 
villain said:
I appreciate your willingness to learn and be open, rather than get defensive about the situation :)
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I've no problem with that - what I dislike sometimes is that if somebody says they don't like or agree with a certain part of a discussion then people all jump on you assuming you are against everything - people can disagree on certain things but still broadly agree on most things - the really important things.
 
Fortitude said:
In such a fast-moving thread, the explanations of what systemic, implicit and institutional racism is, or looks like, is lost on the next person(s) coming into the thread and saying such and such a country is not racist and that it is wrong to paint it with such broad strokes.
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I think we can save a lot of time if we just acknowledge that every country, even those most homogenous and monolithic of countries, is racist to some degree in that they possess racist undertones and rhetoric.
 
balaks said:
I've no problem with that - what I dislike sometimes is that if somebody says they don't like or agree with a certain part of a discussion then people all jump on you assuming you are against everything - people can disagree on certain things but still broadly agree on most things - the really important things.
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I have no problem discussing opinions with people who I don’t agree with.
The existence of racism isn’t an opinion however, that’s what I can’t tolerate.
 
villain said:
I have no problem discussing opinions with people who I don’t agree with.
The existence of racism isn’t an opinion however, that’s what I can’t tolerate.
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I don't think anybody is trying to argue that racism doesn't exist.
 
There are 2 types of racism (as a country) to me

1. The one where they stipulate in the constitution (or existing law) a discriminatory treatment for a certain race (e.g. Malaysian Bumiputera preferences, where Malay have certain benefits compared to Chinese/Indians)
2. The one where the racist discriminatory is only in practice, but nowhere in the law. (e.g. Indonesian treatment of Chinese minorities). The rules are one for all but the application in the real life differs)

I believe Americans falls in the 2nd one

And for what it's worth I don't think a country can be racist just because of some of their citizens are racist, I'd never say American as a racist country, but I'd no problem saying American are rife with racist people. The american justice system isn't racist, but the individual in their justice system is racist. There's no rule in the cop book to detain / torture / target black minorities but the application on the street is very different.

Number 1 is very easy to fix, simply abolishing the preferential treatment will sort things out, but number 2 is harder to erase as it's harder to actually prove.
 
balaks said:
I just don't like statements like 'the UK is racist' -
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I can understand that view, but in the UK racism exists, as it does in every country I have visited in my lifetime. Although can't say I've travelled all over the world, I have travelled extensively in Europe, in North America and the Middle East and everywhere I've been I have come across racism in and between various ethnic and racial groups. From almost fairly benign "I'm better than you" type encounters, to institutional and systemic racism perpetrated daily.

I don't know what we can do about eradicating it completely, when every single person, is or has the potential for racism within them. I don't believe those who say they haven't a racist bone in their body, or words to that effect. Politicians of course realize that racist tendencies are present in everyone and they can play one off against another, as they do with social groups, and as we've seen many times this 'political trick' works, almost every time, either as a distraction or to undermine opponents.

What does worry me as a 70+ year old is the constant harping back, be it either for some who yearn for the so called 'sun-lit uplands' of the past to return, or for some that seem to believe the present needs to be punished for the sins of the past. There is so much pain and inequality still occurring which has a basis in racism; take slavery, that is the modern-day version, where very young children work in 'sweat shops' all over the world to eke out a living and to provide cheap clothing for those usually in better off countries. I wonder how many of those protesting this weekend were wearing such 'tainted' goods?

The current mood has been sparked by what has happened in America, but as many have pointed out such actions can and have occurred all over the world and not just in western countries. Frontline Policing anywhere is a dangerous job and should be undertaken only by those who meet the highest standards of humanity and personal restraint and commitment and who have undertaken vigorous training and testing. Unfortunately Frontline Policing (in particular) as with some other occupations identified under the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic are not properly personally protected, trained, or necessarily paid according to the service they provide, or should provide, for the public.
 
Maticmaker said:
I can understand that view, but in the UK racism exists, as it does in every country I have visited in my lifetime. Although can't say I've travelled all over the world, I have travelled extensively in Europe, in North America and the Middle East and everywhere I've been I have come across racism in and between various ethnic and racial groups. From almost fairly benign "I'm better than you" type encounters, to institutional and systemic racism perpetrated daily.

I don't know what we can do about eradicating it completely, when every single person, is or has the potential for racism within them. I don't believe those who say they haven't a racist bone in their body, or words to that effect. Politicians of course realize that racist tendencies are present in everyone and they can play one off against another, as they do with social groups, and as we've seen many times this 'political trick' works, almost every time, either as a distraction or to undermine opponents.

What does worry me as a 70+ year old is the constant harping back, be it either for some who yearn for the so called 'sun-lit uplands' of the past to return, or for some that seem to believe the present needs to be punished for the sins of the past. There is so much pain and inequality still occurring which has a basis in racism; take slavery, that is the modern-day version, where very young children work in 'sweat shops' all over the world to eke out a living and to provide cheap clothing for those usually in better off countries. I wonder how many of those protesting this weekend were wearing such 'tainted' goods?

The current mood has been sparked by what has happened in America, but as many have pointed out such actions can and have occurred all over the world and not just in western countries. Frontline Policing anywhere is a dangerous job and should be undertaken only by those who meet the highest standards of humanity and personal restraint and commitment and who have undertaken vigorous training and testing. Unfortunately Frontline Policing (in particular) as with some other occupations identified under the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic are not properly personally protected, trained, or necessarily paid according to the service they provide, or should provide, for the public.
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Is it though? America and other hot zone apart most policing in "normal" country is mundane job.

The risk factor of a cop dying in the job is relatively very small in Indonesia (Unless you're the army in a separatist operational area, which is technically a warzone), even in UK/Sweden/China/Japan/Singapore/Malaysia/Vietnam etc I don't think being a cop is a risky business out there
 
Sky1981 said:
Is it though? America and other hot zone apart most policing in "normal" country is mundane job.

The risk factor of a cop dying in the job is relatively very small in Indonesia (Unless you're the army in a separatist operational area, which is technically a warzone), even in UK/Sweden/China/Japan/Singapore/Malaysia/Vietnam etc I don't think being a cop is a risky business out there
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I was referring to 'frontline policing' as with face to face with demonstrators where the potential for 'flare ups' occur and/or confronting criminals caught in the act.
I remember reading about a New York cop who summed up his life as a cop by saying " somedays you walk the streets, its sunny and its quiet and you think this is an easy job, the next minute a drug-crazed 18 year old sticks a shot-gun under your nose.... and you earn every cent of your salary!"
 
Berbasbullet said:
It’s a big old dead cat designed to make the people angry at the ‘left’.

Ultimately they want us talking about a stupid statue and not 60k dead/brexit about to bum us all.
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Yep, I think you're right. I should've realised.
 
Super funny video of the police getting assaulted and everyone mocking him. He should have just shot or tasered the suspect, I’m sure that would please everyone.
 
Quality control
Raoul said:
Instead of closing the thread, people should probably just debate a bit more constructively, especially given that everyone already knows its an emotionally charged subject.
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The art of respecting an opinion has been completely lost in this thread, which is baffling given that I don't think any of the messages in this thread will accomplish anything other than adding to the websites overall post count. The point scoring going on by several posters is quite sad to see in all honesty.

One thing that is absolutely certain from this thread is that the moderation and scout team needs an overhaul. There are far too many posters with "status" who are being hypocrites both in the things they say themselves and the things they pull others up on. There are several staff members whose comments in other parts of this forum render their opinion in this thread obsolete. They are acting like cnuts, for warrant of a better phrase.

Treat others the way you expect to be treated. It's not perfect, but it's as all encompassing a statement as one can expect in the current climate.

I have read some of the most well articulated posts in the history of this forum in this thread, and also some of the most blatant disregard for other peoples opinions I've ever seen. I suppose it highlights the complexity of the situation, but I wish people would air on the side of respect more often. Our posts will almost certainly change nothing, after all.
 
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Zlatan 7 said:
Super funny video of the police getting assaulted and everyone mocking him. He should have just shot or tasered the suspect, I’m sure that would please everyone.
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Behave yourself. It's hilarious. :lol:
 
adexkola said:
All that is bullshit because even the best meaning police departments kill innocent black people and are a vital cog of the prison industrial complex. Good people can still work harm in a fecked up system. And given that system has been brutal for over 100 years it's too late to say let's refurbish it. Tear the bitch down and let's start over, with the first aim of community service and actually protecting the public, not terrorizing it

And also, yes, too much money is spent on police to the detriment of other public services.
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The judicial system plays a huge role. We've had judges convicted for accepting bribes to incarcerating juveniles for cash kickbacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Greylord
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Silver_Shovel
 
dumbo said:
I think you need to answer for this @TheReligion . What are your boys playing at?


Sorry it's a little tangential but I couldn't find a better thread for it.
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Maybe it’s my sense of humour but I don’t find resisting arrest and assault on a police officer funny.
 
DVG7 said:
The art of respecting an opinion has been completely lost in this thread, which is baffling given that I don't think any of the messages in this thread will accomplish anything other than adding to the websites overall post count. The point scoring going on by several posters is quite sad to see in all honesty.

One thing that is absolutely certain from this thread is that the moderation and scout team needs an overhaul. There are far too many posters with "status" who are being hypocrites both in the things they say themselves and the things they pull others up on. There are several staff members whose comments in other parts of this forum render their opinion in this thread obsolete. They are acting like cnuts, for warrant of a better phrase.

Treat others the way you expect to be treated. It's not perfect, but it's as all encompassing a statement as one can expect in the current climate.

I have read some of the most well articulated posts in the history of this forum in this thread, and also some of the most blatant disregard for other peoples opinions I've ever seen. I suppose it highlights the complexity of the situation, but I wish people would air on the side of respect more often. Our posts will almost certainly change nothing, after all.
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I agree with you even though I'm fully aware I'm one of the reactionary plebs who is just coming in here and trying to jam my thoughts down other people's throats. But I also think that consideration needs to be taken into account with regards to the current environment we're all living in right now. Namely; we're all going doolahlay being stuck indoors. Right now we're all living in a tinderbox of emotions because our usual escapes - hiking, pub, trips to the park and beach, football etc - are either limited or completely removed. It's also a very emotionally charged discussion to begin with.

In other words, yes I totally agree that some folk (like me) are being wankers. There's no excuse for wankerism. But (there's that word again) certain accomodations should probably be made since we're all living in strange times. Call it an amnesty if you will, or not. I don't know. I've counted the fibres in my living room rug six times this lockdown already.

Not everyone will agree with me, nobody has to anyway. I'm glad you've said what you've said though because it helps to ground the discussion a little and give people a chance to reflect on their actions.
 
DVG7 said:
The art of respecting an opinion has been completely lost in this thread, which is baffling given that I don't think any of the messages in this thread will accomplish anything other than adding to the websites overall post count. The point scoring going on by several posters is quite sad to see in all honesty.

One thing that is absolutely certain from this thread is that the moderation and scout team needs an overhaul. There are far too many posters with "status" who are being hypocrites both in the things they say themselves and the things they pull others up on. There are several staff members whose comments in other parts of this forum render their opinion in this thread obsolete. They are acting like cnuts, for warrant of a better phrase.

Treat others the way you expect to be treated. It's not perfect, but it's as all encompassing a statement as one can expect in the current climate.

I have read some of the most well articulated posts in the history of this forum in this thread, and also some of the most blatant disregard for other peoples opinions I've ever seen. I suppose it highlights the complexity of the situation, but I wish people would air on the side of respect more often. Our posts will almost certainly change nothing, after all.
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Even our wonderful SteveJ has become serious and angry in this thread. That's the extent of damage it's done.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Even our wonderful SteveJ has become serious and angry in this thread. That's the extent of damage it's done.
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I've always been volatile and stupid; it's just that people couldn't see it amongst all the bollocks I post.
 
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