'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

[footballistic orgasm]

Let me see if I can get this straight.

So Pep can turn a 7.5/10 player into a 9/10 player. That's what he's done this season. They're not that special individually. He molded them into what they are as a team.

Why didn't he win the league in 2017 then?

Are you saying the squad he inherited in 2016 wasn't full of 7.5/10 players. This the squad who won the league in 2014?

Help me make sense of this. Were they average players? Did Pelligrini turn them from 6.5/10 players into 9/10 players in 2014?

Surely if Pep can turn this squad of nothing specials into champions, then he could topple Leicester with that squad of 2014 Champions.

If not that then please answer this.

Who has the best squad in English football right now?

Are you or anybody else going to tell me with a straight face that it's not Man City?

That's 3 years difference (2 seasons), that's a lot in football especially when you consider age factor too.
Didn't they have the oldest squad in the league (especially in defence) when Pep arrived? Many players were past it and others were injury prone. Gundogan who arrived that season barely played because he had a knee injury that kept him out all season.
As for the defenders, technically with the ball, most of them were just average (not even 7/10) and weren't confortable on the ball (except for Kolarov and Clichy) and we know that this is essential to Pep's system. They also lacked pace.
Yaya Toure was already a shadow of the player he was 2 seasons before.

Despite all this, didn't City create more goal occasions than other teams in PL that season? Basically wasting a lot of occasions and conceeding a lot wasn't going to win them the title.

In the current City squad, only Debruyne (and arguably Aguero) was already considered an 8/10 player when Pep arrived.

 

[Olecurls99]

In the current City squad, only Debruyne (and arguably Aguero) was already considered an 8/10 player when Pep arrived.

Kyle Walker. 2 times PL right back of the year before he joined for 60 million. Not 8/10? That's strange

Ederson. The second most expensive goalkeeper at the time of signing. Not 8/10?

Joao Cancelo. Signed by Juve for 40 million before signing for City for 60 million as the most expensive right back? Not 8/10?

Laporte. La liga team of the year before signing for 60 million.

Mahrez PL player's player of the year, fans player of the year, African player of the year, before signing for 60 million. Not 8/10?

Sterling. The most expensive English player of all time, at the time.

Maybe Aguero? 100 PL goals in 147 games. Maybe 8/10?

David Silva. PL Team of the Decade. Not 8/10?


I could go on forever baby

 

[Zen86]

So players like Delph, Zinchenko, Stones, Otamendi, Walker, Fernandinho, Gundogan (who hadn't played for about 2 years), Jesus, B. Silva, Sterling were all 8-9/10 players already when Pep arrived then?

Ignoring the fact you’re suggesting Delph is a 8-9/10 player ( ), which of these players have significantly improved under Pep? Stones, Walker, Gundogan, Jesus, Silva, Sterling were all highly rated when they arrived at City. I mean, they cost over £250m between them. They may have naturally matured as players, but I wouldn't say that individually any of them of significantly improved. Of course they benefitted from playing with each other, however. That's the beauty of assembling a billion pound squad, you're inherently going to look good most of the time as you're steamrolling most opposition.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

You're only looking at a small portion of what I said. You seem to do that a lot.

I summarized your argument. It really does boil down to "Guardiola did not win a league title once therefore he must not be that good."

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Since Guardiola came in;

City’s net spend: £543 million
United’s net spend: £504 million

City’s major honours: 3 Premier League titles, 1 FA Cup, 4 league Cups

United’s major honours: 1 Europa League, 1 League Cup.

We're competing against a bottomless pit of money apparently.

You would think the difference would be extraordinary in net spend(assuming the figures are correct).

 

[gazbradley]

I was wrong about Stones playing time (though that season didn't shine him with glory).

As for Gundogan the injury kept him out for over a year and he never got back his 2012/2013 form (before this season)

Concerning Walker, i stand by what i said that he's never been world-class, but i didn't call him just an average player also. His biggest asset has always been his speed, he offers very little offensively and often has some brain fart moments defensively which in the modern game, doesn't make him world-class. But his speed was much needed for a team that played the way City did when they got him.
As for the comparison with Bissaka, they both have poor offensive input but Bissaka has actually progressed in that area (well he's also much younger), while being as good as Walker defensively.

And I apologise for my over sarcastic response as pointed out by @Penna but a lot of statements get made in similar fashion here and aren’t flagged up and just taken as fact by others.
Walker was in the team of the year and was the leagues young player of the year at a younger age than Wan-Bissaka is now and he did this while playing for Spurs as a full back that’s gotta be given some recognition of his ability, is he on the decline at 30? Maybe, but I’d personally still say Wan-Bissaka has more flaws in his game currently.

Even with your assessment of these players it doesn’t change the fact these players were still thought of as some of the best players around and if any of them would’ve transferred to any other top European side no eyebrows would’ve been raised.
I’m arguing against the fact Pep makes good players look great but so far other than examples of Delph for one season there doesn’t seem to be much evidence for it. And it seems when someone points this out there’s some weird twisting of players abilities pre Pep to make what he’s done sound better. City have collected a great squad of players I don’t understand why that needs to be debated and why it’s seen as a knock on them or Pep, Utd is a clear example of what happens when you do the opposite. But is it that crazy to expect one of the greatest managers of all time with that squad not to have his City career come down to one game, cos let’s be honest if they lose to Chelsea can you hand on heart say Pep has gone beyond your expectations as City manager and questions shouldn’t be asked why?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Ignoring the fact you’re suggesting Delph is a 8-9/10 player ( ), which of these players have significantly improved under Pep? Stones, Walker, Gundogan, Jesus, Silva, Sterling were all highly rated when they arrived at City. I mean, they cost over £250m between them.

You need to be able to make assessments of player quality that are separate from the amount of money paid for them.

When a club spends a lot of money on a player who fails and is bad, we understand they overpaid. When a club spends little on a player who succeeds and is good, we understand they underpaid. But it's also quite possible to overpay for good players. That's what City does. The problem in analysis here is you seem to be assuming that if a player costs a lot and they perform quite well it can only mean the club and manager correctly assessed their value.

That isn't really true, but even if it were, it would be a good thing. Correctly assessing the value of a player is an important part of being a manager. If the only thing Guardiola was good for was telling the directors of City "hey, if you pay X amount for this player, he will give you X in performance" he'd be employed there for the rest of his life.


Guardiola is not a perfect manager, no one is. But we are getting to a point where people are basically arguing that being able to do normal managerial tasks is Bad. Guardiola benches an underperforming player? Bad. Guardiola decides to transfer a player? Bad. Guardiola correctly assesses the value of a player in the transfer market? Bad.

 

[Swoobs]

Ah but you see when Fergie took over in 1986.... Have a read back.
No buying the best squads... . Liverpool spending more as we toppled them..... Careful squad building..... Really impressive.
I don't think you can describe what City are doing as really impressive. 2 teams built with billions who can both handle most PL teams quite easily. Pep is the manager.

Lovely stuff

Shifting goal posts. From “winning the leagues with best squads not impressive” to “spending money to build best squads”, once the first rule was applied to SAF.

As mentioned before, double standards all around here. Lovely stuff indeed

 

[RedRonaldo]

Jesus over Martial and Mendy over Telles is hilarious.

Jesus last 4 season:
17 goals in 42 games
21 goals in 47 games
23 goals in 53 games
13 goals in 39 games

(total 74 goals in 4 season)

Martial last 4 season:
11 goals in 4 games
12 goals in 38 games
23 goals in 48 games
7 goals in 36 games

(total 53 goals in 4 season)

Yeh I know, hilarious.

 

[Swoobs]

Jesus last 4 season:
17 goals in 42 games
21 goals in 47 games
23 goals in 53 games
13 goals in 39 games

(total 74 goals in 4 season)

Martial last 4 season:
11 goals in 4 games
12 goals in 38 games
23 goals in 48 games
7 goals in 36 games

(total 53 goals in 4 season)

Yeh I know, hilarious.

One dimensional stats. Pull out more things like goal per minutes, average position, player to team’s goal ratio, chances created for, then we may have a proper discussion. And that is if goals are the be all end all.

 

[Cloud7]

It’s truly mind boggling to me that Pep has been a top 3 manager in world football for over a decade now, and you still have people on here saying he’s not all that or that any manager can do what he’s done.

One day United fans will get over this strange bitterness towards Pep. One day.

 

[RedRonaldo]

One dimensional stats. Pull out more things like goal per minutes, average position, player to team’s goal ratio, then we may have a proper discussion. And that is if goals are the be all end all.

Yeh I already post mine, Jesus>Martial. Why not you post yours then.

 

[The Hilton]

We're competing against a bottomless pit of money apparently.

You would think the difference would be extraordinary in net spend(assuming the figures are correct).

You're forgetting that City got done for going around FFP by fudging the books. Pep also started at a City in a much better state than we are. They'd been planning for his arrival for years.

Don't get me wrong, he's proven time and again that he can take the best team in a league and make them as dominant as they should be (which previous managers have struggled to do), but he does need "his" players for it to work, same as any manager.

Still though in my opinion his CV isn't as impressive as Klopp's, who's achievements with lesser teams are top notch.

 

[Swoobs]

Yeh I already post mine, Jesus>Martial. Why not you post yours then.

And you think im gonna waste my time finding out stats just to prove a point like you?
Everyone with more than half a brain can see that your one dimensional stats is agenda driven. You cannot prove that Jesus>Martial just like I cannot prove Martial >Jesus by providing nothing. Because the one dimensional stats that you have given cannot prove jackshit

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

You're forgetting that City got done for going around FFP by fudging the books. Pep also started at a City in a much better state than we are. They'd been planning for his arrival for years.

Don't get me wrong, he's proven time and again that he can take the best team in a league and make them as dominant as they should be (which previous managers have struggled to do), but he does need "his" players for it to work, same as any manager.

Still though in my opinion his CV isn't as impressive as Klopp's, who's achievements with lesser teams are top notch.

We finished level with them on points the prior season.

 

[Thunderhead]

You're forgetting that City got done for going around FFP by fudging the books. Pep also started at a City in a much better state than we are. They'd been planning for his arrival for years.

Don't get me wrong, he's proven time and again that he can take the best team in a league and make them as dominant as they should be (which previous managers have struggled to do), but he does need "his" players for it to work, same as any manager.

Still though in my opinion his CV isn't as impressive as Klopp's, who's achievements with lesser teams are top notch.

eh? Liverpool and Dortmund are the 2nd biggest clubs in both Germany and England I wouldn't class them as lesser teams, Mainz I'll give you, I think he got the promoted.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I don't even understand what this argument about Gabriel Jesus is supposed to be.

He cost considerably less than Martial, and considerably less than what my own club paid for two Brazilian "wonder"kids just two years later. He appears to be performing better than all these players, at least on total goalscoring numbers.

How on earth is this supposed to reflect negatively on Guardiola? He's cheating in the PL because City paid a reasonable fee for a good performer? That's just his job. Basic job responsibilities of a manager.

 

[RedRonaldo]

And you think im gonna waste my time finding out stats just to prove a point like you?
Everyone with more than half a brain can see that your one dimensional stats is agenda driven. You cannot prove that Jesus>Martial just like I cannot prove Martial >Jesus by providing nothing. Because the one dimensional stats that you have given cannot prove jackshit

So you can't put forward any evidence to back up your claims?

So weak.

Lets leave it here then.

 

[Stacks]

Kyle Walker 2 times PL right back of the year before he joined for 60 million. Not 8/10? That's strange
Ederson? The second most expensive goalkeeper at the time of signing. Not 8/10?
Joao Cancelo. Signed by Juve for 40 million before signing for City for 60 million as the most expensive right back? Not 8/10?
Laporte? La liga team of the year before signing for 60 million.
Mahrez PL player's player of the year, fans player of the year, African player of the year, before signing for 60 million. Not 8/10?
Sterling? The most expensive English player of all time, at the time.
Maybe Aguero? 100 PL goals in 147 games. Maybe 8/10?
David Silva? Pl team of the decade. Not 8/10


I could go on forever baby

they were ordinary. Pep taught them how to play football. Bayern players were average before he arrived and taught them too

 

[The Hilton]

We finished level with them on points the prior season.

And that puts us at parity? Come on don't be silly. They made the CL semis when we dropped out in the group stage for starters, and their league season kind of fizzled out after it was known that Pep was taking over.

On top of that, they'd finished above us every season since Fergie left, so yes they were clearly in a better place than we were.

 

[The Hilton]

eh? Liverpool and Dortmund are the 2nd biggest clubs in both Germany and England I wouldn't class them as lesser teams, Mainz I'll give you, I think he got the promoted.

2nd biggest historically, but both were miles away from the top teams in their respective leagues.

Breaking the BM monopoly of the Bundesliga and then retaining it is a huge achievement, much bigger than continuing said monopoly.

Liverpool hadn't won the league in decades, in fact they'd never actually won the PL until Klopp came along, and took them (and their normal budget) to beat a City team funded by an oil country (that has been proven to have fudged the books to get around FFP) as well as the CL win.

I know he's bloody annoying, but Klopp's achievements are brilliant, most impressive managerial CV in the world for me.

 

[Offsideagain]

We're competing against a bottomless pit of money apparently.

You would think the difference would be extraordinary in net spend(assuming the figures are correct).

City or rather Guardiola have spent over a billion euros on players since he arrived. The net spend is debatable as are all financial figures from Man City. My guess is they have spent close to a billion pounds with agents fees and dodgy deals similar to Mancini’s two managers jibs he had had City. One salary I the UK therefore taxable and one salary in Abu Dhabi, none taxable. Guardiola has spent more on defence than most clubs spend in ten years on everyone. Just because a player costs a lot doesn’t mean they are good. He has bought a few duds but United have bought more duds over the years than anyone.

 

[Zen86]

You need to be able to make assessments of player quality that are separate from the amount of money paid for them.

When a club spends a lot of money on a player who fails and is bad, we understand they overpaid. When a club spends little on a player who succeeds and is good, we understand they underpaid. But it's also quite possible to overpay for good players. That's what City does. The problem in analysis here is you seem to be assuming that if a player costs a lot and they perform quite well it can only mean the club and manager correctly assessed their value.

That isn't really true, but even if it were, it would be a good thing. Correctly assessing the value of a player is an important part of being a manager. If the only thing Guardiola was good for was telling the directors of City "hey, if you pay X amount for this player, he will give you X in performance" he'd be employed there for the rest of his life.


Guardiola is not a perfect manager, no one is. But we are getting to a point where people are basically arguing that being able to do normal managerial tasks is Bad. Guardiola benches an underperforming player? Bad. Guardiola decides to transfer a player? Bad. Guardiola correctly assesses the value of a player in the transfer market? Bad.

I've noticed that most of what you say on the subject tends to be overly wordy, waffling nonsense.

As much as you seemingly want to disregard transfer fees, unfortunately you can't. You can't fluff your way into suggesting Pep and City are on a level playing field with the rest of the league, the rest of world football. Because they're not. Quite the contrary, in fact. So drop it, and drop this vague subtext that Pep is turning water into wine. It's not going to wash with anyone here, so you may as well just go back to Bluemoon.

 

[Mark_Barca]

I know a few on here are utterly clueless, but imagine actually attempting to use 'goals' as some indication that Jesus is better than Martial.

Lets just ignore Martial played around 70 games out wide, plays for a side who over the last four years are not near the level of City and the goal chances created.

If Martial was at City instead of Jesus his record would be far superior.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I've noticed that most of what you say on the subject tends to be overly wordy, waffling nonsense.

I'm sorry that anything more complicated than "the big number is bigger than the small number" is hard for you to parse, but that's not really my problem.

 

[adexkola]

It’s truly mind boggling to me that Pep has been a top 3 manager in world football for over a decade now, and you still have people on here saying he’s not all that or that any manager can do what he’s done.

One day United fans will get over this strange bitterness towards Pep. One day.

I knew it was over where someone argued he would struggle to replicate what David Moyes did at West Ham, given the same resources.

I'm genuinely curious whether any players, managerial peers, or any DoFs, or any club chairmen in this sport, have any doubt about his capabilities.

 

[Paula]

they were ordinary. Pep taught them how to play football. Bayern players were average before he arrived and taught them too

Bayern players were Champions of Europe when he arrived

 

[Zen86]

I'm sorry that anything more complicated than "the big number is bigger than the small number" is hard for you to parse, but that's not really my problem.

It’s not hard to understand, it’s just convoluted drivel with no point. I’ll let you know if I fancy a bit more.

 

[Camara]

Bayern players were Champions of Europe when he arrived

And had reached 3 CL finals in 4 years

 

[adexkola]

. But is it that crazy to expect one of the greatest managers of all time with that squad not to have his City career come down to one game, cos let’s be honest if they lose to Chelsea can you hand on heart say Pep has gone beyond your expectations as City manager and questions shouldn’t be asked why?

Plenty of pundits and fans said he couldn't hack it in the PL. I'd say by those standards, he's exceeded expectations.

Now, what usually happens is the goalposts shift, so that 5 years in, not winning 3 CLs on the trot is him failing. Of course, "failing" by armchair manager standards.

 

[NasirTimothy]

We're competing against a bottomless pit of money apparently.

You would think the difference would be extraordinary in net spend(assuming the figures are correct).

They are correct

 

[NasirTimothy]

Plenty of pundits and fans said he couldn't hack it in the PL. I'd say by those standards, he's exceeded expectations.

Now, what usually happens is the goalposts shift, so that 5 years in, not winning 3 CLs on the trot is him failing. Of course, "failing" by armchair manager standards.

I recall that as well. Especially after the first season. It was all “that tippy tappy crap might work in Spain, but this is the PREMIER LEAGUE!!!!”

Now it’s shifted to “oh he has a bottomless pit of money so of course he’s gonna succeed.” That’s exactly the kind of goalpost moving that people like Stan Collymore did after City absolutely mullered the league in his second season.

 

[Stacks]

Bayern players were Champions of Europe when he arrived

And had reached 3 CL finals in 4 years

Nah son. Pep made them

 

[Suedesi]

average team, average manager, easily beaten by us!

What was that row at the end with Graham Potter all about? It seemed like a few of City's assistants were involved as well.

 

[Bearded One]

Kyle Walker. 2 times PL right back of the year before he joined for 60 million. Not 8/10? That's strange

Ederson. The second most expensive goalkeeper at the time of signing. Not 8/10?

Joao Cancelo. Signed by Juve for 40 million before signing for City for 60 million as the most expensive right back? Not 8/10?

Laporte. La liga team of the year before signing for 60 million.

Mahrez PL player's player of the year, fans player of the year, African player of the year, before signing for 60 million. Not 8/10?

Sterling. The most expensive English player of all time, at the time.

Maybe Aguero? 100 PL goals in 147 games. Maybe 8/10?

David Silva. PL Team of the Decade. Not 8/10?


I could go on forever baby

Anybody saying they were poor players when they joined city is being dishonest. All I’m saying is that there is nothing that City has on her ranks that is not comparable to other top league teams. Yes they have the best squad in the league but people act like they their quality is men vs boy like when this is not the case.

Walker was indeed in the league teams of the year but so was Wan-Bissaka, Shaw has been a mainstay for us. Considering that Liverpool have a keeper for twice as much and Chelsea have a backup keeper for that amount, Ederson is not a cheat code player. Cancelo has always been suspect defensively and he is no J. Kimmich - just a good player with some weaknesses like most. Sterling is a very good player with obvious weaknesses like most players. Aguero is indeed world class but he is no more the player he once was as injuries have taken its toll and he barely even featured this year. Silva is world class but didn’t feature this season, his back up player Gundogan who was a shadow of his Dortmund self suddenly found his rhythm and even when De Bruyne was out, they worked hard as a team and thrived - no excuses. Mahrez is a very good player but also comparable to players like Ziyech, Son, Pulisic, Nicholas Pepe. These are all good players with strengths and weaknesses and none is the crystal clear superior.

The money aspect is noteworthy but must also be viewed in context. City have an old habit of spending big on shite especially during Pellegrini days so every club they now want to buy from can easily rinse them because they have this oil money aura about themselves. Who wouldn’t? In other words City spending £60m on a player shows that the player is good (clubs won’t spunk that amount on a dud) but if an Athletico come for the same player under the same conditions, it could be done at £35m. That’s why it’s misleading to rely solely on amount paid.

They have a very good squad but it’s nothing “cheat-code” like compared to the top clubs in the league.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

I'm not going into this but saying mata was better than Silva in his prime is just ridiculous, no one with half a brain thinks that, if it was the case then why has Silva 3x the caps and goals for the Spanish nt

I’m not going into this but Bernado Silva has no Spanish caps. /end

 

[The Boy]

What was that row at the end with Graham Potter all about? It seemed like a few of City's assistants were involved as well.

Sounds like Potter got a bit too excited when we started pulling goals back and rubbed Pep's face in it a bit, he apologised for being over emotional afterwards!

 

[Swoobs]

I know a few on here are utterly clueless, but imagine actually attempting to use 'goals' as some indication that Jesus is better than Martial.

Lets just ignore Martial played around 70 games out wide, plays for a side who over the last four years are not near the level of City and the goal chances created.

If Martial was at City instead of Jesus his record would be far superior.

Thank you, this was exactly my point earlier. Goals scored by itself is such a 1 dimensional measurement, with no other context, far from enough to prove A is superior to B unless we are talking about overwhelming differences. And that is when one considers goal to be the be all end all of all players comparison

 

[Olecurls99]

Shifting goal posts. From “winning the leagues with best squads not impressive” to “spending money to build best squads”, once the first rule was applied to SAF.

As mentioned before, double standards all around here. Lovely stuff indeed

Yeah I figured it didn't need saying but alas...

Here a simple system so you can remember.

It's the Managerial Achievement Rating System or MARS

Winning with best squad + Spending most money = Not overly impressive

Winning with best squad + Not spending most money = Very impressive

Winning without having the best squad + Not spending the most money = Very special indeed

Ferguson did actually pull the last one off in 2003, 2011 and 2013 by the way.

All Pep's titles, barring Barca, fall into the not overly impressive category. Barca was a weird one because he obviously didn't sign any of those players. They were all recruited by others. He took over in 2008 and the best squad ever assembled was essentially there for him.
I guess the credit for that one would go down to the people at La Masia. The same way that the credit for Leicester's title should go down to Steve Walsh as well as good management from Ranieri.

Ferguson and Wenger both achieved the middle one.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I know a few on here are utterly clueless, but imagine actually attempting to use 'goals' as some indication that Jesus is better than Martial.

Lets just ignore Martial played around 70 games out wide, plays for a side who over the last four years are not near the level of City and the goal chances created.

If Martial was at City instead of Jesus his record would be far superior.

Thank you, this was exactly my point earlier. Goals scored by itself is such a 1 dimensional measurement, with no other context, far from enough to prove A is superior to B unless we are talking about overwhelming differences. And that is when one considers goal to be the be all end all of all players comparison

Well it’s all only empty words without any evidence to backup such claim, isn’t it? I could also say Pogba would be far better than De Bruyne if he was playing for City instead. It’s really meaningless to discuss things based on our imagination.

Why not compare their actual performances (average rating from whoscored) over past 4 seasons instead, if you really think goals are not important to forward/striker?

17-18: Jesus 7.05 > Martial 6.87
18-19: Jesus 6.64 > Martial 6.56
19-20: Martial 7.32 > Jesus 7.26
20-21: Jesus 7.08 > Martial 6.84

Again, Jesus is ahead of Martial in terms of their overall performance. So what do you see in Martial who should be far ahead of Jesus, apart from your gut feeling through a pair of red tinted glass? He is already proven inferior in terms of goals and performance over past 4 seasons. If you are so sure you really need to give more substances rather than empty words to back up your claim.