The poster you quoted fits that bill.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
I don't think the hollow and meaningless success of the middle eastern oil money genuinely impacts United fans in the way that, say that of a legitimate footballing story like Livepool, does. Hence the question of coping does not really arise.
As for the fake "what?" at the start, this thread is as much about little 15 year olds who absolutely adore Pep and feel the need to worship his every breath, and that too on a Manchester United forum. That screams of more desperation and insecurity than anything else.
I've never seen City's squad evaluated like that.
You were the bookies favourites at the beginnig of the season. How so if nobody rates your squad?
I'm not arguing your players are amazing or all world class, I'm saying they're the best bunch in the league. Maybe Europe. But that doesn't say much, the standard all round is pretty low right now.
But you don't need to go to the opposite end of the spectrum and claim City's squad is average. No neutral thinks that. If you really think that you should be questioning why Pep spent so much on them.
I think most people are capable of comparing one squad to another. It's not rocket science.
As I mentioned above I don't think City's squad is amazing nor do I think their football this season has been amazing. But it's still the best squad in the league. Noot is really underrating his own team, probably I'm guessing to enhance Pep's performance.
Chelsea are close and should have done much better. Maybe so many new players in one transfer window is an explanation/excuse.
Chelsea's squad is nowhere near City's. It's comfortably the best squad in England. Liverpool's first 11 on form can compare but not their squad. They have Laporte as 2nd choice CB, a wealth of fullback options, and don't even miss KdB when he's out because of the likes of Gundogan, Silva and Foden as alternatives/accompaniments. Only area you could argue they're a little light is uptop but even there it's only this year they've lacked Aguero. But credit for getting other players stepping up.
This isn't a slight on City or Pep of course. The club has built really well and I wish our club gave our managers such a a terrific base. But it's the truth. I would pick their squad over any in Europe right now even if they don't have a Messi or Neymar figure. Not having one absolute elite elite forward, they have a squad littered with absolute quality
Yeah, probably but also has a lot of the (See below) types ....
My original post clearly implied it was a two way thing.
@Mark_Barca that bit in bold is important for you too bud.
You can’t argue he had a good squad that’s not a myth the players had just won the league 12 months prior with the names Id already mentioned and reached a CL semi final, the squad was full of quality.
Pep is a world class manager obviously im not taking anything away from him I was just pointing out he had a very good squad and spent a lot of money.
Id love to see Pep take a job like maybe Leicester or Spurs, a side that’s decent but in no way the best with a budget that isn’t the same as the top clubs, I’m not so sure what would happen.
Would love to see comparison against Real Madrid and Liverpool for the same period.
What's your problem man?
If you disagree, fine. You can also put me on ignore. Not sure what your obsession is with calling me a City fan. Go tell a mod to change my tagline then.
You’ve taken it the wrong way. Got no issue with your posting at all mate.Typical city fan
No one is saying he doesn't have a good squad. He has a great squad. Part of the reason is that they are good players. Part of the reason is the system he's created that makes the collective more than the sum of it's players.
He said he may one day go back but not to manage the First XI.
He quite fancies the job as La Masia boss I think.
Last edited:
Pep is all about calculated moves and timing, name a single time he's ever been interested in anything other than the perfect seat. Barca right now is a disaster but Barca in a few years might be a very different proposition.
Liverpool’s was £111 million and Real Madrid’s was £78 million (net).
When I look at your players, I am unable to convince myself that they are head and shoulders better players or way ahead than their counterparts in other teams in the league. As an example, I would easily choose Son, Kane, Bale over and above Foden, Jesus, Mahrez.
I think the reason why some cannot reconcile the quality and the money is because of the perception that you have oil money. So if Dortmund seeks to buy a player they may get him £20m but when City come for the same player they get billed £45m under the same conditions. I call it the big-club-tax or should we call it oil-money-tax in your case? We (United) suffer from this problem too to an extent.
The only players in the world class bracket in that team are KDB and Aguero but Aguero is at the end of his powers and has been sparingly used for sometime. The rest are just around the category of very good players in the league. Mahrez is comparable with Ziyech, Foden with Mount and Greenwood, Gundogan with Thiago and Maddison, Fernandinho with Fabinho and Kante and the list goes on.
Lots of people like to be fixated on amount spent because it fits their narrative when they assess the squad. Truth be told, they have done a very brilliant job in the way they dominate teams. As expensive as this city team is, it is no where as strong with exceptional players like Pep’s Bayern squad for example. They get rinsed in the transfer market or should I say they pay a premium and sometimes they don’t mind so long as they get their player.
Last edited:
Do you honestly before this season rate Gundogan Silva and Foden much more than you and many fans did Fred, Martial and Greenwood
Fully agree with this.
It's a giant myth that their squad has 2 world class players for each position.
People are right to speak about the funds they spent, but I agree people have deluded themselves into believing they have 22 world class players.
City forwards: Mahrez, Sterling, Foden, Ferran, Jesus
United Forwards: Martial, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, James
Liverpool forward: Mane, Salah, Firimnho, Jota
Chelsea forward: Werner, Kai, Pulisic, Ziyech, Hudson
Arsenal forward: Auba, Laca, Willian, Pepe, Martinelli, Saka
Spurs forward: Kane, Bale, Son, Moura
Its not like there head and shoulders ahead of everyone even some teams rival them in depth
In midfield only United and Chelsea rival them
City: Rodri, Fernandinho, Gundo, KdB, Bernardo
Chelsea: Mount, Kovac, Jorginho, Kante
United: Pogba, Bruno, Matic, Fred, da Beek
CB is edge to City however:
City: Dias, Stones, Laporte (somewhat injury prone), Ake (injury prone)
Chelsea: Silva, Rudiger, Zouma, Christensen
United: Lindelof, Maguire, Tuanzebe, Bailey (injury prone), Jones (injury prone)
Fullback both Chelsea and City side:
City: Mendy (injury prone), Zinc, Cancelo, Walker
United: Shaw, Wan Bissaka, Williams
Chelsea: Alonso, Reece, Chilwell, Azpi
There isn't a big difference closest is Chelsea followed by United. If next season Chelsea/United can't close the gap against City they might as well they might as well just scrap everything.
You may not have the best starting 11 in the world, but you surely do have by far the best squad in the world. Just to give more perspective.
A fit Bayern side have the best squad in the world.
Absolutely true.
You're working overtime to try and spin this 'It's all down to the manager' narrative. I get it.
City don't want people to look at all the money they're spending to buy success, so they try and put as much of the credit on Pep as possible.
Sky/BT are trying to sell the league, and oil billions buying up titles ain't a great sell so they're happy to go along.
The squad you have is made up of the best available 20-25 year old talent in the world at the time of their purchase. Since 2008, City have been doing this.
You can't buy all the best players because there is more than 25 top class players in the world but you have the biggest concentration of talent in England and have had since you signed Aguero and Silva back in 2010.
The fact you haven't won the league every year can only be put down to poor management.
I'm not saying you have the best player in every position but you have 2 teams that should be a match for every top team, and you have 2 teams that can dominate the lower teams, and that's gonna win you a lot of leagues.
For the record I have always thought Ederson, Walker, Dias, Rodri, Gundogan, Cancelo, Zinchenko, Aguero, Silva, Foden, De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Mahrez, Laporte and Sterling are exceptional players. The others aren't bad either. That's why City paid huge money for all but 2 of them.
It's not that complicated. Money can buy success.
We
Attack:
Mahrez: top in the league (<Rashford)
Sterling: one of best in league in recent years (>Martial)
Foden: best young talent (>=Greenwood)
Augero: one of all time best In PL (=Cavani)
Jesus: among top young talent (>James)
City 4 United 3
Midfield:
De Bruyne - best in the world in recent years (>=Bruno)
Gundo - currently best in PL (>=Pogba)
Bernardo - top midfielder (>VDB)
Rodri - among top DM in league (>Fred)
Fernandinho - experienced and reliable (>Mctominay)
City 5 United 2
CB:
Dias: Currently best in the world (>=Maguire)
Stones: top in the league (>Lindelof)
Laporte: top in the league (>Bailey)
Ake: Good backup (>Tuanzebe)
City 4 United 1
WB:
Cancelo: best in the league (= Shaw)
Walker: top in the league (=AWB)
Mendy: top in the league (>Telles)
Zinc: talented wingback (>Williams)
City 4 United 2
(Notes:
> clearly better, 1 pts for winner
>= arguably or marginally better, 1 pts each
= similar level, 1 pts each
< clearly worse, 0 pts)
Overall: City 17 United 8
Well I’d say their midfield and defence are far better than anyone else. Their forward is as good as anyone, but this is only because Augero has been injured and declining, while Sterling has been underperforming too. Usually this is their strongest area. I fully expect they will buy a worldclass striker to replace Augero this summer (Kane or Haaland)
Attack:
Mahrez: top in the league (<Rashford)
Sterling: one of best in league in recent years (>Martial)
Foden: best young talent (>=Greenwood)
Augero: one of all time best In PL (=Cavani)
Jesus: among top young talent (>James)
City 4 United 3
Midfield:
De Bruyne - best in the world in recent years (>=Bruno)
Gundo - currently best in PL (>=Pogba)
Bernardo - top midfielder (>VDB)
Rodri - among top DM in league (>Fred)
Fernandinho - experienced and reliable (>Mctominay)
City 5 United 2
CB:
Dias: Currently best in the world (>=Maguire)
Stones: top in the league (>Lindelof)
Laporte: top in the league (>Bailey)
Ake: Good backup (>Tuanzebe)
City 4 United 1
WB:
Cancelo: best in the league (= Shaw)
Walker: top in the league (=AWB)
Mendy: top in the league (>Telles)
Zinc: talented wingback (>Williams)
City 4 United 2
(Notes:
> clearly better, 1 pts for winner
>= arguably or marginally better, 1 pts each
= similar level, 1 pts each
< clearly worse, 0 pts)
Overall: City 17 United 8
Last edited:
Do PL fans think Aguero and Silva are world-historical talents or something?
Well that's a new one.
Shite music
Probably because they won 2 out of the last 3 titles.
Nobody is saying Manchester City's squad is equivalent to Newcastle's. They have a very good squad. But they clearly have a different model than a lot of other wealthy clubs. They buy largely unproven players. These players don't tend to become the absolute best in the world. But they do a good job at City, and City wins titles. Speaks well of both the transfer policy and the manager.
Who is the bloke on the left?
I tend to agree with you that whilst City clearly buy good players they are not generally classed as 'best available.
What they do is buy players with attributes that fit the system they play. Take some of those City players and put them in the United team and they would look nowhere near as good as they do now. Bernardo and Zinchenko for instance. Conversely take Juan Mata and put him in City's team and he would look like a much better player than he does at United.
World Class or not
it’s not a myth they have exception quality for every position
World Class does get thrown around way too easily for my liking
but the Strength they have in every position is rather freakish
Did I? Or did I just disagree with the City fan who claimed neutrals don’t think they have the best squad because they don’t have the best player in every position? And what does that have to do with any of the points I made?But you cited neutrals' opinions as a reliable source
Let's be honest, for many this isn't a topic that can be discussed without bias.
The irony in you starting with 5 teams comparable and then it quickly turns into 2 not far behind. You also missed out their all time leading scorer from their attack. I understand the point trying to be made about no stand out individuals other than 2 or 3 but I can’t see the case of not calling these players world class. They also only have 1 developed player or 2 if you include Zinchenko in the players you listed whereas others have 4 or 5 which again adds credence to the fact they’ve bought a world class squad.
Although I don’t agree, I don’t take issue with anyone calling Pep the best ever, it’d be stupid to claim he’s not up there, but I will call out people who try to downplay things like his squad quality to overhype what he’s done at City. So far he’s done a good job, his League Cup record and record points mean it’s better than the minimum I would’ve expected, if he wins the CL he’s done a great job but a better job than Klopp with Liverpool? I’m not convinced
Right now I would have the following players over their United equivalent. And I'm not just saying this based on form. I think they're genuinely better players.
Ederson>Henderson
Walker>Bissaka
Dias>Maguire
Stones>Lindelof
Rodri >Fred
Gundogan >Mctominay
De Bruyne> Fernandes
Foden> Rashford
Mahrez> Greenwood
Cancelo>Williams
Mendy>Telles
Laporte>Bailly
Ake>Tuanzebe
Fernandinho>Matic
Silva>Mata
Sterling>James
Jesus >Martial
That's 17 players
I would keep Shaw, Pogba Cavani and De Gea as a backup keeper. Cavani being better than Aguero is purely on form. Aguero will go down as a Pl great.
Some of those were close but can anyone say where I've gone massively wrong?
Can anyone genuinely say City don't have a far better squad?
Here’s a good game.
I would say a player is world class if I can't pick 10 players(20 for centre backs because there are 2 of them) in his position that are better than him. By that reasoning I think the following are world class.
Ederson
Walker
Cancelo LB
Dias Top 20
Laporte Top 20
Rodri DM
Gundogan Mid
De Bruyne Att mid
Sterling LW
Mahrez RW
Silva RW
Foden LW
Aguero
Fernandinho DM
Tell me where you disagree and name the players in world football that are better.
Do I think Alex Ferguson would win the Spanish treble with a young Messi, Alves, Iniesta, Xavi, Alba, Pique, Busquets, Valdes, Alexis etc.
Yes. Yes I do.
Is this a joke?
They are a team that always look more than the sum of their parts. Even squad players slot in seamlessly when called upon. I think that has fooled some into overrating the individual quality of each player. If we signed their entire squad, I am convinced fewer would get into our starting XI than many here think. You can only praise the coach for that kind of synergy. The advantage that gives them is the coach is able to rotate heavily and rest players so they go full pelt in the big games. The key which no one seems to admit is that Pep has a knack of getting most of the players in his squad preforming to their maximum. No other coach seems to be able to replicate it. Their best LB is a right footed CM ffs!
As others have said, the idea they have 22 world class players is a myth. The poster above put Jesus ahead of Martial for example. If we signed him, I can best people would be calling for his head. Likewise Telles/Mendy, Dias/Maguire, Foden/Rashford. A lot of our players would be performing better in their team. They do have a better squad but the current gap between both sides is a lot bigger than the difference in quality suggests. They are a lot better at many other things but I won't get into that now cause that would derail the thread.
As others have said, the idea they have 22 world class players is a myth. The poster above put Jesus ahead of Martial for example. If we signed him, I can best people would be calling for his head. Likewise Telles/Mendy, Dias/Maguire, Foden/Rashford. A lot of our players would be performing better in their team. They do have a better squad but the current gap between both sides is a lot bigger than the difference in quality suggests. They are a lot better at many other things but I won't get into that now cause that would derail the thread.
someone of the staff?
Zidane is quite good at it. He too was ignored because "the substitute 11 is good enough to be a first team." That was kinda true in his first stint, but no one can reasonably argue that RM have a great squad right now, they don't even really have a great first eleven, and they've performed quite decently over two seasons in La Liga, winning one title and probably losing this year's by 2 points. They've only conceded a few more goals this season than last even though they've been missing half to three fourths of the starting defense for the bulk of 2021.
One of the backroom lads. A kit man I believe.
The thing here though is that you're using the finished product that Pep has made them this season to judge, but the idea was originally to prove that these players were world class or much better than United players before playing under Pep or even at the beginning of this season.
So based on that, here's what I think about your list :
Ederson>Henderson (Ederson's definitely better with his foot, don't know about the rest)
Walker>Bissaka (They're equal IMO, both good defensively, very average offensively)
Dias>Maguire (This is completely false, no one was talking about Dias here before City showed interest and before the season he's had)
Stones>Lindelof (This is also false, everyone and their grandma here was calling Stones a flop, and he spent his last season at Everton on the bench)
Rodri >Fred (I don't buy this, i actually believe that Fred will be as good if not better at City because he's quicker, don't forget that Pep wanted him before Rodri who only had one good season at Athletico before joining City, he was nowhere near world-class)
Gundogan >Mctominay (i don't get this comparison, Gundogan is more of a Pogba type of player, and most will agree that Pogba was rated higher)
De Bruyne> Fernandes (True but Fernandes is also a great player)
Foden> Rashford (no one thought this before this season, so it's false. Though Foden has gone on to have the better season)
Mahrez> Greenwood
Cancelo>Williams (Cancelo's a RB, he's rarely been good when played on the left. You should be comparing Williams with Zinchenko who isn't by the way a natural LB)
Mendy>Telles (based on what exactly?)
Laporte>Bailly
Ake>Tuanzebe (isn't Tuanzeba a RB?)
Fernandinho>Matic (Before Pep arrived, Matic was considered the superior player of the 2)
Silva>Mata
Sterling>James
Jesus >Martial (Martial was rated way higher than Jesus. I personally think both are equal in Talent, but Jesus has a higher work rate)
So no you can see that Pep's system is the Key.
Walker has speed but often gives away penalties. His offensive input is non existent. A very good player but not world-class.
Cancelo is not a LB, often been extremely average when played there.
So now we're counting top 20 as world-class? Dias wasn't never brought up in the top 20 CB conversation before this season, and it was barely the case for Laporte also before he arrived at City.
Rodri only had one very good (not great) season at Athletico, how was he a world-class player?
Gundogan didn't play football for 2 years because a back problem before joining City
Sterling was being mocked by the whole country after 2 below average seasons and a terrible Euro campaign for the NT.
Mahrez only had one great season (when Leicester won the title) before joining City
B. Silva the same as Mahrez when Monaco won the title.
Foden ? That must be joke though
Aguero, arguably but i can see the argument for that.
Fernandinho, no he wasn't world-class before Pep arrived. A solid player but far from being world-class.
Only KDB was an undisputed world-class player.
Offcourse if we use the finished products that Pep has made them now as a team to judge, then yeah you can come to the conclusion that most of them are now world-class. I personally don't think most of them are though, even now.
What? Bielsa and Klopp both get the best out of players considered lesser talents...
Well since the person I am replying to said do not assume, then why make assumptions now just because its SAF. Double standards all around, but whats new here