'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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He is about to lift his 9th league in what 13 years? And most likely win the European Cup for the third time. Has anybody had that much success in such a short time. Incredible.
Sir Alex Ferguson announcing the winner of this year's LMA Manager of the Year Award
Pep dedicates the award to Doctors and Nurses
Thread title looks a crap now. Sack watch?
Crying for Aguero
The biggest reason I hate him managing City is not how much he’s winning but the fact that I really want to hate him but just can’t
The biggest reason I hate him managing City is not how much he’s winning but the fact that I really want to hate him but just can’t
I like Pep but found that interview pretty cringeworthy to be honest
David Squires nails it in his latest column in The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...inal-day-of-the-2020-21-premier-league-season
Nah that's nonsense. I like David Squires but his column ignores the possibility Aguero didn't want to accept a reduced role at City going forward. It's possible to make decisions in the best interest of the club and be emotional at a club legend leaving.
That’s why City are on top they are ruthless when the time is up, something we really lack in
He’s dispensed with a veteran fan favourite every season, so far.
Hart
Zabaleta
Toure
Silva
Aguero
Next year will probably be Fernandinho.
Something people seem to be missing whenever criticizing Guardiola for having the best players on his team is that, on paper you could argue that a lot of teams look the "best" but still underachieve, especially in a competition like the champions league where everything is played on tiny details.
Take the exemple of 2017-2019 Barça, they had arguably the best attacking trio/duo in the world one All time great Midfielder albeit declining, and world class players at nearly all the other positions. This didnt prevent them from collapsing in the champions and severely underachieving. The team wasn't balanced and their defense not solid enough when they faced serious opposition. And this is what separates good teams from great teams. Great players when assembled together can form a good team and win thanks to the strength of their individualities, but to be a truly dominant great team, you need the skill and vision of a coach to instill that cohesive strength that is the fabric of great teams.
And that's a very valuable skill that seems to be overlooked whenever we are having these kind of discussions. So for exemple, everyone knew that Barca had great players in 2008 but they weren't a great team. They just finished third of laliga with less than 70 points, Pep came in and turned them into the greatest team of all time. And this is something he has done wherever he went. This is why Man city is letting him spend billions on players. Because they know that Pep is currently the likeliest person in the world to bring them results with those investments. Because he can turn a bunch of great players into an all time great team like no other man in the world.
People tend to consider that winning with poor squads is a more impressive feat than creating an All Time Great team, i tend to disagree, as football is a sport with such contingency that literally anything can happen, however turning a good team into an all time great team is a solid testimony of a manager's quality.
So the real question that we should ask ourselves is not "Can Guardiola turn a mid-table teams into a contender" but "If not for Guardiola who could have turned that Barça team into the greatest team of all time". And frankly there aren't that many names that comes to my mind.
Take the exemple of 2017-2019 Barça, they had arguably the best attacking trio/duo in the world one All time great Midfielder albeit declining, and world class players at nearly all the other positions. This didnt prevent them from collapsing in the champions and severely underachieving. The team wasn't balanced and their defense not solid enough when they faced serious opposition. And this is what separates good teams from great teams. Great players when assembled together can form a good team and win thanks to the strength of their individualities, but to be a truly dominant great team, you need the skill and vision of a coach to instill that cohesive strength that is the fabric of great teams.
And that's a very valuable skill that seems to be overlooked whenever we are having these kind of discussions. So for exemple, everyone knew that Barca had great players in 2008 but they weren't a great team. They just finished third of laliga with less than 70 points, Pep came in and turned them into the greatest team of all time. And this is something he has done wherever he went. This is why Man city is letting him spend billions on players. Because they know that Pep is currently the likeliest person in the world to bring them results with those investments. Because he can turn a bunch of great players into an all time great team like no other man in the world.
People tend to consider that winning with poor squads is a more impressive feat than creating an All Time Great team, i tend to disagree, as football is a sport with such contingency that literally anything can happen, however turning a good team into an all time great team is a solid testimony of a manager's quality.
So the real question that we should ask ourselves is not "Can Guardiola turn a mid-table teams into a contender" but "If not for Guardiola who could have turned that Barça team into the greatest team of all time". And frankly there aren't that many names that comes to my mind.
Change thread title....
’Pep’ Guardiola will never be sacked
’Pep’ Guardiola will never be sacked
Indeed. It should be "Pep Guardiola - top reds lick his sack". or something else with "sack" in the title
A truly elite level manager should be able to work at both ends of the spectrum. This is the reason Pep is below the rung of SAF & Klopp. SAF & klopp have both proved they can work at low level & high level clubs with success. There are very few managers who have been able to do this which is why they are termed as elite.
Mancini would never have won another title at City because he fell out with everyone, Pellegrini would never have won another title at City because the players grew disinterested and he couldn't shore up the defence. Both had to go when they did for the good of the club.
Pep has kept the players engaged and working hard, he's had no major fall-outs that we know of and every time a problem appears he finds a solution. That's just not something most managers could do for five years straight no matter how much money you gave them.
How many City players are commonly said to be the best in their position in the league, though?
De Bruyne. Dias, now. That's... it.
Ederson, Walker, Cancelo, Laporte, Stones and Mahrez are all generally considered to be in the top 5 in their positions.
The rest of the squad? Forget about it. Nobody even talks about half of them.
That solution being buying another GK/CB/RB/LB until one fits?
I'd argue that failure to do the same has cost countless big sides in the past. Better to let them leave with dignity (well, except Touré) than watch them shambling around the pitch until it becomes painful. I'd hate to see City fans feeling the same way about Agüero as United fans once did with Rooney.
That's still a myth, really, isn't it? Unless of course you subscribe to the prehistoric notion that a team should have a "first XI" and a "reserves". A club that plays almost 60 games a season can't operate like that.
Pep has signed four centre-backs and we have four centre-backs- the same four- Dias, Stones, Laporte and Aké. He's signed three right-backs and we have two, with one leaving because they wanted more minutes. He signed two left-backs and one left because he found himself on the bench more than he'd have liked. In that position we usually now play a skinny midfielder who got there through nothing but hard work and Pep's coaching. He's signed three goalkeepers and one left, in the twilight of his career, as backup 'keepers often do, but the other two are still here.
You paint it like a revolving door of failed transfers when in reality Pep buys players for his squad, not his XI- and the vast majority are still in his squad. Those that left did so because they wanted assurances that Pep just doesn't offer.
I would say Sterling, Silva, Foden, Aguero, Fernandinho, Rodri and Gundogan are top 5 in their positions.
There's probably more. I can't remember the whole squad at the moment. Basically the whole squad are top 5 in their positions in the league.
most of the squad possibly but definitely not all, same can be said for most of the Utd and Liverpool squad tbh
city players not in top 5 in their position in the League just off the top of my head.
Steffan - 5 keepers better, than him no need to list
Zinchenco - 5 left back better than him (Shaw, Robertson, Chillwell, Digne, Tierny)
Ake - 5 CH better than him, no need to list
Gundogan - 8 or a 6?
Silva 5 right sided attack midfielders better than him
Mendy see Zinchenco
Garcia - See Ake
Jesus - Cavani, Kane, Wilson, Rashford, Vardy, Aubamayang
Torres - winger or central striker, doesn't matter he's not in the best 5 in that position yet.
In theory it is a noble sentiment, but upon further inspection it is a weird argument. Like saying Messi cannot be truly great because he hasn't proven he can carry a team at the lower level leagues. Anyone with a pair of eyes can see that Messi would improve any team. Likewise, what evidence is there to suggest that Pep would struggle to make a huge impact at lower level clubs? His tactics? Innovative. Man management? Fantastic. All indicators say that he would improve any team at any level.
The fact that Pep hasn't had to coach at a lower level is in itself a testament to how good he is.
That's a very charitable way of saying he's bought £50m squad players which is something that no other side in the league can really do. Like it or not, the money is the single biggest reason why you lot are where you are.
I mean, did he not turf out your fan favourite keeper for Bravo, who wasn't good enough, and you then broke the world transfer record for a keeper by getting in Ederson the next year? Or that if it wasn't for Dias, Stones would be on the scrapheap just like he was for the last two years?
Who else can afford to buy a legitimately decent PL defender like Ake and essentially put him on glorified gardening leave?
Don't get me wrong, he's a brilliant manager and his teams are a relentless winning machine but lets not paint his time at City as something that it isn't. This isn't Fergie upending the Old Firm dominance in the 80s, or even Simeone at Atleti. It's one of the very best managers in the world being backed up by the richest, and most invested owners in world football. The only surprise is that it's taken you lot this long to even get to a semi-final, let alone a final.
Fair enough. Not all of your squad but basically your starting 11 and your backup 11 has top 10 players. That's pretty sweet.
I can't think of 5 better right sided players in the league than Bernardo Silva by the way.
Mahrez
Salah
....
United have Bissaka, Shaw, Maguire, Bruno, Pogba Rashford. City have double that and better back ups. Hence City are Champions.
of course it's the money, be daft to dispute that, but I'll dispute the Ake assumption, he's been injured most of the season
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/nathan-ake/leistungsdaten/spieler/177476
Why are you leaving out DDG and Cavani?
I doubt many United fans would take 5 other RW's in the league over Greenwood.
Know some United fans have went off him, but Martial makes the top 5 LWs alongside Mane, Foden, Son and Rashford
Yes for potential I'd rather have Greenwood but he's not currently top 5, is he?
Anthony Martial in no way makes the top 5 LWs. Jack Grealish? Martial is not even playing on the left wing. He's nearly always played up top.
Cavani has done well but I rate 5 strikers above him.
Dave used to be the best but we're talking about right now and right now he's pretty average and has been for 3 years, wouldn't you agree?
He had the comfort of having Laporte on the bench for goodness sake.
Sterling was off the boil all season but it doesn’t matter, such are their options on the bench.
Details that make or break the season for other teams, have little to no effect when you have the money to pay world class players to sit around and have them content enough to do so.
Sterling was off the boil all season but it doesn’t matter, such are their options on the bench.
Details that make or break the season for other teams, have little to no effect when you have the money to pay world class players to sit around and have them content enough to do so.
Who is the top 5 RWs?
El Ghazi has opened played LW for Villa, Grealish a lot in the AM role as well. The point is Martial has played LW a lot previously, around 10 times this season as well, if you have Kane as your striker and there is one spot left at LW and you have the likes of Martial, Zaha, Harrison etc on the bench you're picking Martial. He may not make top 5 but it's not a case 'no way' he makes it, he's a very good footballer.
Who is the five strikers ahead of Cavani?
Ederson, Allison and Martinez are the only 3 keepers better than DDG in the PL. Maybe Mendy, not taking anyone else over him.
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There's not many better than Silva. I can't think of 5 anyway..
And Gundogan? Surely he's been one of the best players in the league this season, never mind just midfield.
Both are 100% in the top 5.
Can you imagine as rookies Ferguson or Klopp being approached by Rangers or Bayern to coach them then refusing on the grounds that it may damage their standing in the minds of some random guys on the internet?
Me neither.
It wasn’t a dig at Pep, just stating a fact.
Somehow I feel his success with Man City will always feel hollow.
One can also argue that both coaches haven't had jobs where they're under high pressure to not only win almost immediately but also win while getting their teams to play a certain brand of football.
Klopp has always taken jobs where he has enough time to get his team to play his brand of football and also win a title.
When teams hire Pep, they expect him to win instantly while getting his team to play a very expansive brand of football.
This is what i've been saying all along, you're judging the players based on what Pep has made them.
Foden has become an important player this season (he wasn't before) under Pep. Sterling who couldn't score more than 10 goals a season has become a much better player under Pep but he's still not a great player, how many clubs do you see going crazy about getting Sterling?
Silva only had one very good season before playing under Pep and still has tendencies of being irregular. The same goes for Rodri and Gundogan to a certain extent.
Has anyone ever managed the three richest teams in their league (one a total one club league) who inherited the three best squads, one featuring 3 all time greats...in the same period?
Would probably envisage fairly similar league hauls in the circumstance?
The biggest reason I hate him managing City is not how much he’s winning but the fact that I really want to hate him but just can’t
Just watch his petulance when something goes wrong. Job done.
To add on to that, Pep made a team a contender for the GOAT team. These are teams that forces opponents, even top tiered ones, to adjust from their usual tactics just to counter the said team for a long period of time.
The previous one before Pep to achieve this was Sacchi, not SAF or Klopp. Distractors tend to forget that.
What position did Barca and City finish before Pep took over?