Not winning it 3 years on the trot isn't him failing. Nobody is saying that.
But taking 5 years to get to a semi is. Surely you agree that underperforming to some extent?
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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Not winning it 3 years on the trot isn't him failing. Nobody is saying that.
But taking 5 years to get to a semi is. Surely you agree that underperforming to some extent?
Pep is clearly the problem. Rather than investing £5mil on a untried youth prospect. Wouldn’t we be better off spunking the money on a mafia styled hit?
OK, whoscored average rating it is then. It is surprising that you agreed that Messi > Ronaldo then, afterall Messi’s whoscored average rating is 8.57 whereas Ronaldo’s did not even get an 8. What an inferior player
Goalpost shifting again. It was you, not me, who initially said winning the league with the best squad wasnt impressive. You also downplayed his 2008 achievement and credit it entirely to the La Masia. Maybe saying less is better for you
They aren’t great standards to truly measure his City reign though are they let’s be honest? Or is that why you think he’s top dog? Cos he proved he can hack it in the PL? I very much doubt City brought him and all the other guys he was successful with in Barcelona just to prove that. He was brought in to win the Champions League and I think it was universally agreed at the time he was more likely to do that than anyone else they could’ve hired, hence why it was such a big appointment for City.
So where’s the goalpost moving exactly and where have I called him a failure? I’ve repeatedly stated even if he doesn’t win the CL this season he’s done a good job at City, but without a CL win and only 1 final I can’t justify calling it anything more than that. I seriously don’t understand why you take such offence to this point of view as an apparent Arsenal fan, surely it’s perfectly reasonable expectation, it’s what I’d expect from a Utd manager anyway.
Tell me I’m wrong but how many top European clubs who’d made similar investment as City have with Pep wouldn’t look at changing things if they hadn’t won a CL in 5 years? Most would’ve done it after 2 or 3 in this era with City being a prime example previously and you know it as well as I do. So saying questions should be asked if they don’t win it (not saying he should be sacked) seems perfectly normal, no?
It is underperforming, but it won't matter much if they win it this year.
I know I did. And I stand by it. Fergie won a couple of league were it could be argued that he outspent his nearest rival, back in the early 00s. And they weren't overly impressive either.
Most of his leagues were won with the best squad but he did build those squads without splashing cash. Pool outspent us in the 90s etc
Fergie won leagues without the best squad too. Now that's greatness.
What Pep has done ain't that impressive.
Exactly. So why are you being so defensive against something you agree with? What happens if they don’t win it? What’s wrong with questioning why a great manager like him has let it get to a point where even his staunchest defenders like yourself are saying he has to win one game not to have ‘underperformed’
I really have no idea what you are talking about. I am not the person you originally asked that question to.
But if you want an answer, it's really quite simple: managers don't win that many CLs. If City win it this season, Guardiola will have won three, which is the most managers have ever won. So we are in a situation where we could claim a manager that wins 2 has 'underperformed' but a manager that has won 3 has 'performed as well as anyone ever has' even though the difference is, as you said, one game.
The conclusion to reach from that is that, if you want to judge a manager based on CL wins, you should probably just wait until their career is over instead of assessing this on a season-by-season basis.
But if you want an answer, it's really quite simple: managers don't win that many CLs. If City win it this season, Guardiola will have won three, which is the most managers have ever won. So we are in a situation where we could claim a manager that wins 2 has 'underperformed' but a manager that has won 3 has 'performed as well as anyone ever has' even though the difference is, as you said, one game.
The conclusion to reach from that is that, if you want to judge a manager based on CL wins, you should probably just wait until their career is over instead of assessing this on a season-by-season basis.
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ok, i see what you are doing here!
You’re not but you replied to it so brought yourself into the conversation so sorry for assuming you wanted to be included.
Who said I’m judging his career solely on CL wins? Fergie didn’t win any CL’s with Aberdeen but I’d still consider his achievements there arguably more impressive than anything he managed with Utd or Ranieri didn’t win a CL but his Leicester title win is one of the greatest achievements ever, the point being you can only judge each job based on what’s expected of them when they take over. If Pep just so happens to be in charge of a club who are considered one of the favourites every year for the CL and winning that competition is one of the main priorities for them, then I guess his teams performances in said competition have to be scrutinised.
You could also conclude, declaring a manager a GOAT before they’ve finished their career is slightly premature but you seem fine with these posts yet find fault with anyone who says they have some doubts around giving him that label just yet
Hahahah quality, no doubt he will either ignore this completely or come up with attempt about Juventus being shit and Ronaldo playing with pub players.
Whoscored had a PL team of the season recently which had Azpilicueta in over Dias, there was no Bruno Fernandes and Sterling was in it when he has had a decent at best season.
Never thought the argument could get any weaker, but that is even poorer than the goals comparison.
Well to be honest, I think whoscored average rating is at least a better measurement than purely goals. He did mentioned that whoscored average rating is a measurement of actual performance, not assumption based, so I merely applied his logic to Messi vs CR.
The juventus excuse can be easily debunked as CR7’s career whoscored average rating is just 8.02 whereas Messi’s is 8.58.
Personally I do not know or care if Jesus is better than Martial or otherwise, I am just calling out double standards here. If he agrees that Messi is better than CR7 based on that, I have no issues with him saying Jesus is better than Martial. But my guess is he will apply a different set of rules and measurements regarding messi vs cr7 as compared to martial vs jesus.
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Of course it is an underachievement.
That being said, you do have to admit that the bar was set way lower that that before he came here.
I agree, top managers should be held to much higher standards which I was baffled at the initial takes a few years ago.
I think he's a top coach because of how he's able to impose his "philosophy" of playing on the pitch. That's very hard to do, especially with players who have not played in such a system. The GOAT debate isn't relevant to me, pointless having those convos before he's retired.
Wasn't saying you were moving the goalpost, moreso the general discourse on Pep is classic goalpost moving.
I agree some clubs would have considered moving him on after last year. City didn't and they are reaping the rewards of that.
Domestically he's obviously been a huge success. He can't take all the credit, though. City is a well-run club that outspends all of its rivals. In typical City fashion they also have the best manager, but let's not pretend that even a mediocre coach wouldn't have gotten a PL title or two with the same resources and foundation.
What makes Pep's (domestic) results so impressive is not the amount of trophies, but rather the manner in which they've been won. He's taken the term "flat-track bully" to a whole new level.
What makes Pep's (domestic) results so impressive is not the amount of trophies, but rather the manner in which they've been won. He's taken the term "flat-track bully" to a whole new level.
Pep has taken City to the next level no doubt. But, other than great football, are his achievements huge? How many more PL's would have Mancini or Pellegrini won in the last five years? 2? 3?
I’ve only just found out that Pep holds the record for consecutive wins in La Liga, the Bundesliga and the Premier League. Remarkable.
I love both but do you honestly think Mancini or Pellegrini could have guided City past 97 point Liverpool in 2018/19?
Nope, that would have been our title too by a long way. But before and after those two seasons we have been less than ordinary.
As a player or as a manager of the best players?
Nope
As a manager of players that he invariably made better. Although a lot of people don’t realise that he was almost as decorated as a player as he is in management.
This thread has seen more goal post shifting than WHO and CDIC on COVID.
Which players?
Kyle Walker won 2 best right back awards before City
Mahrez was player of the year back at Leicester
Laporte was in the La liga team of the season
John Stones was found under a rock at the start of the year
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https://footballwhispers.com/blog/11-players-pep-guardiola-has-improved-in-his-career/
There’s many more. One might argue that the latest English messiah Phil Foden could be in worse situations than under Guardiola’s tutelage
I'm not sure what to make of this post. Do you think being in a 'team of the season' list means a player can't be improved?
Credit where it’s due, that’s an impressive stat to be fair.
They can and yet under Lord Pep they haven't hit the same heights.
I thought he was a super sexy wonder coach or something
Plus you didn't applaud me for my delicious pun
Thanks Yimby. I've had it up to here with Pep love as you can imagine.
If I read that I might explode.
So Guardiola only wins titles when he has the best players in the world... except apparently all those players are 'failing to reach the same heights' when they are under him... which somehow translates to dominating the PL.
I think I get it. Someone call the Nobel Prize, we finally found a quantum state in the macroscopic world.
I think I get it. Someone call the Nobel Prize, we finally found a quantum state in the macroscopic world.
Every city manager under oil billions has won a league title. Its guaranteed. Guardiola has hugely outperformed them but the inevitability of the success undermines it a little.
Strangest thing is, after last season, Pep was the only hope of stopping the Scousers and I wanted him not to run. Now he stayed and the dippers imploded, I can't help but think "What if...?"
It's the Messi Syndrome. He's fantastic, world class, GOAT. But you could tell he wasn't pushing his own boundaries to the limit by going to another club and doing the same at his peak. If he only won one or two more league titles with another club (AC Milan, or Arsenal or Dortmund) then his legend would be complete. Maradona pushed his boundaries and did not settle for the same old, same old.
Pep needs to undergo this journey to complete his genius. Obviously he has more time on his side. No one is saying he doesn't have it, of course he does, but it would be nice if he could take it out of his pocket and show us.
Utd were nailed on to win the league this season. Chelsea sacked their manager mid way, Liverpool lost all their defence and mojo. Spurs and Arsenal nowhere. Probably only Leicester would have pushed you slightly. Qué Cera.
It would also very much depend on who City brought in. It's not as if they had a poor squad.
I actually think it's a bit different for a player. To be at the centre of a constantly changing team is a challenge and Messi for example, has shown a performance level good enough to leave no doubt that he'd excel everywhere.
Guardiola is quite obviously a fantastic manager and you can't really knock 3 titles in 4 years plus the CL he will win in a couple of weeks. But i think as evidenced by Mancini and pellrgrini winning titles there, there is just a certainty to success. For example would either have won the league at United or Liverpool. Youd have to think probably not. With 1bn spend at City? Surely they'd have hit a cl final by now, as would any top tier or second tier manager.
The problem with this thought exercise is that it relies on the premise that a top tier or second tier manager is going to be given 1 billion euros and five seasons to hit the club's targets. They aren't.
Please please please some of you guys: get a life! Football or what Pep achieved or didn't achieve that really shouldn't be something you spend so much time.
You know what you're right. I'm gonna go outside and see if the sun is still shinin.... Oh well
I can see where people are coming from when they say he has a endless pit of money but he is the best manager in world to use them funds IMO. We have nearly matched City with our spending since Pep took over and wished he was here instead of there as we would be winning the league i am sure of it.
SAF is the best manager I’ve ever seen and Pep is the best coach I’ve seen. He was the perfect t replacement here, we wouldn’t be in a mess over the last 7 if he was here.
SAF is the best manager I’ve ever seen and Pep is the best coach I’ve seen. He was the perfect t replacement here, we wouldn’t be in a mess over the last 7 if he was here.
I agree we would be in a much better position if he took the United job instead of Mourinho, but that's not saying much considering the epic disaster Mourinho was at United. He spent fortunes while at the same time making the squad progressively worse. We were a very sorry bunch by Autumn 2018.