Jesus over Martial and Mendy over Telles is hilarious.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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You're giving him way too much credit orgasm.
Some players haven't done well at City since Pep arrived. If he's such a good coach, why is that?
If he's such an amazing coach then why are City bothering spending such huge amounts?
I guarantee you that all the Premier league clubs would have loved to sign every one of City's squad when City signed them. These weren't hidden gems. Just because the average fan hasn't heard of Dias doesn't mean the other premier league scouting teams didn't rate him highly. They just can't afford to pay 60 million over and over again.
These players were the highest rated young players around when City signed them. That's why they paid the huge fees. That's why they're so good. Why doesn't Pep just sign some lads for 10 million or bring through some of the kids if he is such an amazing coach?
I've been told on here that it's because he wants to work with the best. And he is. That's why he's at City. So he can work with the best players. You can't have it every way.
Well said, I often laugh when I see people say pep and klopp just improved their players and that why they’re so good. Yep certainly, that’s why each of them changed their first eleven spending millions and worked with different players instead of just turning their initial lot into wine.
You can't possibly think this is a good point.
We are saying Pep can make a 7.5/10 player look like a 9/10 player, not that he can take a homeless veteran and turn him into Messi.
This is a prime example of just making stuff up to suit your narrative. Stones was a mainstay in the Everton team in his last season there, he literally played more minutes than he’s ever played at City. How does Pep deserve credit for his performances this season but not criticism for his performances last season, he literally bought 2 centre halves to replace him in the summer or is spending 100 mil on competition how you get the best out of Stones?
You do this weird comparison thing where you downplay City’s players previous careers but don’t do the same for Utd players. Walker gives away penalties so he’s equal to Wan-Bissaka, what? Let’s just forget that he was in the team of the year at Spurs before signing and Wan-Bissaka played for Palace. Claiming Pep turned Dias into a world class centre half is just as absurd as saying Ole made Bruno a world class AM, they’re odd takes. Cancelo was winning titles at Juve and he’s not even a guaranteed starter, surely you see the difference when he’s the quality you turn to when players are out of form or injured rather than Williams?
City’s overall squad is superior to Utd’s that’s clear to see, has Pep got more out of his squad than Utd during his reign? Obviously that’s why we’ve changed managers but has he performed to GOAT levels with his squad, not for me. Do these comparisons with Liverpool and he doesn’t come close to what Klopp has got out of his squad during similar spells
So you’re saying Man City had no 7.5 players when pep got there, they were 5star or homeless veterans? Because apart from the couple of quality players he had already he changed everyone else
I’d say it’s more he has a couple of 9 and 10s and he gets 8s playing 9 and 10. But when an 8 is performing 6 or 7 he swaps them for another 8 in his squad. I mean come on...
If he was getting the likes of Cleverley, O’Shea and Fletcher performing to these levels I’d agree but when it’s players who’ve won titles at previous clubs and been capped by France, Spain and Brazil it’s a tough one to understand
Why wouldn't he change players?
Guardiola joined City in 2016. He's been there for five seasons already. City's 2015-2016 squad only had three players younger than 25: Sterling (still there), de Bruyne (still there), and Mangala (not there, has played less than 2000 minutes of football in the last three years).
Who was in City's squad in Guardiola's first year? Sagna (retired), Kompany (retired), Zabaleta (retired), Fernando (still around at 33), Nolito (still around at 34), Aguero (still at City at 32), Kolarov (sub at Inter at 35), Caballero (third GK at Chelsea at 39), Navas (in Sevilla, 35), Delph (under 1500 minutes of PL football in two seasons, 31), Silva (35, making some appearances at Real Sociedad but not really a starter), Clichy (35 years old, playing in Switzerland), Fernandinho (still at City at 36), Otamendi (33, playing in Benfica), and Toure (retired). Is this group of geriatrics supposed to still be the City squad in 2021?
Pep Guardiola: found out as a manager because he cannot stop the flow of time.
Very clever, well done.
I agree he’s only ever sold players who are too old and never replaced someone just because they were upgraded. He either turned all their shit into 9/10 or sold them when they were too old. Can’t believe I missed it.
I dont think anyone's saying Pep's a bad manager or anything. Hell he's the best manager IMO. But, surely, even his biggest fans should realize that he requires a set of players with a very defined set of skills in order to be successful.
Hell, look at his 1st season at City. The side consisted of Bravo, Walker, Kompany, Otamendi, Kolarov, Fernandinho, Silva, Sterling KdB, Sane and Agero. And also had Gundogan, Yaya, Nolito, Navas, Iheanacho, Jesus, Stones, and thse older players you listed.
If he was the 2nd coming of Christ, surely, this is a good enough side to win in a league where the defending champions were Leicester and none of the sides in previous year bar leicester managed to get even 75 points
The winners, Chelsea won 93 points. The following season, City won 100 points with the bolded players you mentioned. Walker was brought in after the first season.
The defence yes, but not the midfield, is their midfield utilize better? Yes, talent wise are they far better? No. If you switched KdB and Gundo, for Bruno and Pogba, do you think City drop a couple levels, while United go up a level or two? City has a generally better team, but its also down to most of their players being utilize better, than just raw talent alone.
I think you answered your own question
he requires a set of players with a very defined set of skills in order to be successful
surely, this is a good enough side to win in a league
apart from a few, those players who he inherited didn't have the defined set of skills in order to be successful playing the way he wanted football to be played.
edit - especially in the full back area's where he inherited 4 players over the age of (I think) 31
What's irony about it? I mentioned there attack isn't much better then many PL counter parts which I listed, I also did say that after that only United and Chelsea are comparable in other positions. No one is downplaying amount spent and quality of the team, but the fact people assume they have 22 world class players. The term world class is something you attribute to players like Lahm, Neuer, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Ronaldo, Messi, Lewa, Alves, Ramos, Cruyff, Suarez, Zidane, Maradona, Pele, Kahn, Vidic, Scholes, etc how many of the City players would you even compare to the above names? The term world class gets used too loosely nowadays.
But the side in the second season was so much more. Walker, like you rightly pointed out, Bilva, Laporte, Mendy among others. Chelsea may have won, but the point was that Pep needs a very specific set of players. There are two ways of looking at it, and while he is a guaranteed success if he gets what he wants, he isnt someone who makes 7/10 players to 9/10 players like some people are claiming
Except it’s not a way of looking at things is it? The money they’ve spent is fact. Pep’s spent in excess of 400m on his back line alone.
I wouldn’t describe his transfer record as very good. It’s decent, very much glossed over by the fact that if a player doesn’t cut the mustard, he’s dropped to the bench and becomes a luxury squad option. It’s no bother to them and the media don’t particularly care. Nor do the fans.
You're the one making stuff up here. Stones didn't play that much during his last season at Everton.
The only people calling Walker a world-class player are those who are eager to use it against Pep. Are you really going to tell me that Walker offers much more than Bissaka?
Cancelo was sitting on the bench at Juventus because Allegri didn't think he could defend very well.
So players like Delph, Zinchenko, Stones, Otamendi, Walker, Fernandinho, Gundogan (who hadn't played for about 2 years), Jesus, B. Silva, Sterling were all 8-9/10 players already when Pep arrived then?
This is spot on. I’m not a pep lover or anything but he might need players for his style but he does turn 7/10 players into 8.5 players
Delph and Zinchenko have been those who managed to plug themselves in during various parts.
This is the first season where Stones has been good and a lot of it is down to his partner.
Otamendi had a good 6-7 months. Walker was good pre-City as well. Fernandinho got the recognition under Pep (because you wont praise CDM of a team that finished distant 2nd to Mou's chelsea and tied for 4th with Utd), but again was a good player. Gundogan - first good season, but was a good player (instrumental in successful BVB sides) Jesus (I have no idea how he was in Brazil), Bilva had 1 great season, but irrespective he was good in that Monaco season as well (not sure how he was before that) and Sterling was good at Pool.
Not being successul in a City side under Pellegrini when you'd given up on him a season before his departure doesnt mean those players werent good enough.
Not saying he doesnt improve players, but he requires a very specific set of players and can improve those set of players
Every manager requires a specific set of players that suit their style. It is why Mou would thrive with a set of players and when he got his break to the top of the table, he started to play “negative” football at Madrid with very positive minded talents who got pissed off with his style and progress couldn’t be made. Klopp has a certain type of players that he uses and so it took 3-4 years to mould his team to his desire and then conquered the world with it albeit temporarily.
No manager is super man. Relying on a specific set of players is an inherent weakness of the managing job in general because the managers aren’t playing the football but rely on others to get their ideas across. Put differently, managers do not really have a direct impact on the game per se.
I don’t think Pep would find it hard to play defensive/negative football but he chooses not to because it doesn’t fit his ideals. This is why he requires technically blessed players and midfield-type defenders and attackers with a midfield orientation. These guys may not even be world class or top top talents but they need to have certain attributes for them to be useful to Pep.
Not true, stones was excellent in the 100 point season
So basically good players (or very good players for some) but not the world class players that they're said to have been according to some ?
Ederson>Henderson: Obviously... Henderson is a steady keeper but several steps back from our David.
Walker>Bissaka: Depends not sure, Walker been drilled into the system at City so appears better at his role, but Bissaka has improved attacking wise this season and is better defensively.
Dias>Maguire: 50/50 city originally wanted Maguire, like the rest of Europe didn’t think he was worth £85m and waited a year for Dias. Would Dias appear as good at United as he does at City? Would Maguire be better at City then he is at United?
Foden> Rashford: No: typical grass is greener on the other side. Rashford is an amazing player, Pep would take him in heartbeat. Also completely different style to Foden.
Stones>Lindelof yes. Stones’ class has always been obvious. It’s just the impatience of the English media. They cry out for a “ball playing CB” we get one, but then they jump on his back whenever he makes a ball playing mistake. Luckily he had a manager like Pep.
Rodri >Fred: different roles. Rodri in our team would appear like blind when he played CDM. People just wouldn’t appreciate it.
Mahrez> Greenwood: Different players different ages. We are very lucky to have a great prospect like Greenwood, but should have signed Mahrez from Leicester for RW. Greenwood will be a world class striker.
De Bruyne> Fernandes 50/50 At United people would probably say De Bruyne doesn’t score enough. Fernandes is a proper United icon
Cancelo>Williams: Rather get Williams from academy then pay £40m for Cancelo.
Mendy>Telles: Who cares, both mostly squad players.
Laporte>Bailly: Laporte should have been signed by United, been highly rated for years.
Ake>Tuanzebe: Rather have an academy player then sign a £50m back up CB
Fernandinho>Matic: No contest, but Fernandinho could easily appear crap if at United.
Silva>Mata: Mata in his prime was better
Sterling>James: 100% no contest. But also credit to Pep for improving him, but even before Pep Sterling always been much much much better than James.
Jesus >Martial: Wrong.
Yeah this is gone in circles. I remember when we were struggling and they were struggling, everyone was saying they need a rebuild and asking whether Pep would stay around for it. Now the same people saying the players they considered as deadwood our world class it’s crazy.
I understand City are rivals, they spend insane amount of money and Pep has been giving all the resources to achieve but it still doesn’t take away from the fact he’s the best manager in the world. There is a reason teams give him the resources as they feel there is no better option to achieve with them.
Shameful
We were discussing the strength of their squad in comparison to their competition being significantly better. People were saying Spurs have as good an attack or Utds midfield or Chelsea’s defence or whatever, the point being City are as strong as anyone across the board and you proved it by starting with 5 examples and then realised the rest don’t get close so had to drop them from the comparison. The only team that probably has them beat is Bayern and defensively City are arguably more stacked.
Fair enough if your definition of world class is different to mine im happy to rephrase it. Maybe we could agree to call City’s squad some of the very best players currently playing the game if that helps? Their whole squad would be welcome at any club in Europe and the same was true for probably 90-95% before they signed for City.
Interestingly your shortlist of world class players, Pep has managed nearly half of them so does this add to the argument he’s been lucky with the quality of player he’s managed or add to the argument he makes good players look great or ‘world class’ in your opinion?
Yeah you got me, I completely made it up, he didn’t start over 30 League games for Everton in his final year, the most he’s ever started in his whole career, I even hacked into any credible website and changed it to make me seem correct if anyone by chance took 10 seconds to fact check me.
Do I think 50 England Caps, multiple title winning, PFA young player of the year, PFA team of the team x3, FIFA world 11 2nd team, FIFA world 11 nominee Kyle Walker offers more than Crystal Palace young player of the year Aaron Wan-Bissaka? No mate, again you’re right, Walker gives away too many pens.
To be honest I don’t watch much Serie A but whilst editing Stones’ stats I thought I’d have a look at Cancelo’s, 22 league starts in his last season at Juve, ironically it’s about how many starts Stones will make this season. Coincidence? Or a little hacking joke just for you and me
You sure about this one? Or did he actually play over 30 and 40 games a season the 2 years before signing for City? No no you’re right, I’m the inventor here
Let me see if I can get this straight.
So Pep can turn a 7.5/10 player into a 9/10 player. That's what he's done this season. They're not that special individually. He molded them into what they are as a team.
Why didn't he win the league in 2017 then?
Are you saying the squad he inherited in 2016 wasn't full of 7.5/10 players. This the squad who won the league in 2014?
Help me make sense of this. Were they average players? Did Pelligrini turn them from 6.5/10 players into 9/10 players in 2014?
Surely if Pep can turn this squad of nothing specials into champions, then he could topple Leicester with that squad of 2014 Champions.
If not that then please answer this.
Who has the best squad in English football right now?
Are you or anybody else going to tell me with a straight face that it's not Man City?
I remember my first cigar
Hence I have them in equal score when matching up KDB and Gundo vs Bruno and Pogba. But their DM and bench options are better than us in midfield.
average team, average manager, easily beaten by us!
Again no one's saying he doesn't improve players. Hell, I think most even agree that he's the best manager in the world (or 2nd best at worst). But if we're going by this logic, would you say the same for Ole as well? That he makes 6-6.5/10 players into 8.5/10 players? Afterall, we finished 2nd, were in equally bad shape as City were (or worse), have a worse squad and squad depth
I'm not going into this but saying mata was better than Silva in his prime is just ridiculous, no one with half a brain thinks that, if it was the case then why has Silva 3x the caps and goals for the Spanish nt
A manager didn't win the league once therefore they're not good. Truly scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
Ole is doing a good job at United, as seen by the league position. But I don't think United's players are 6/10 quality and I don't think they're performing at 8.5/10 quality.
Many people here are, in fact, saying that Guardiola does not improve players. That, instead, he just signs someone else until he finds something that works, and that the City squad is clearly full of world-beaters because they were capped for their countries.
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The year 2021 and we're still doubting Pep as a manager..
You're only looking at a small portion of what I said. You seem to do that a lot.
I'm assuming that you agree with the rest considering you don't comment on it.
So you do think City have the best squad, yes? So Pep won the league with the best squad. Just like he has done with every other league he's won. That's all I'm saying.
I don't consider managers who win leagues with the best squads that impressive. Fair point?
Ah but you see when Fergie took over in 1986.... Have a read back.
No buying the best squads... . Liverpool spending more as we toppled them..... Careful squad building..... Really impressive.
I don't think you can describe what City are doing as really impressive. 2 teams built with billions who can both handle most PL teams quite easily. Pep is the manager.
Lovely stuff
Fergie knocked off Liverpool. Then Wenger shows up and he bested him. That one did involve a bit of money, I'll concede.
Then Chelsea showed up with their money and he topped them. Then City with the billions and he held them at bay.
His achievements are better the more you look at them. Especially when people try and compare him to Pep.
He spent the most money 3 times in 27 years. Amazing!
I was wrong about Stones playing time (though that season didn't shine him with glory).Yeah you got me, I completely made it up, he didn’t start over 30 League games for Everton in his final year, the most he’s ever started in his whole career, I even hacked into any credible website and changed it to make me seem correct if anyone by chance took 10 seconds to fact check me.
Do I think 50 England Caps, multiple title winning, PFA young player of the year, PFA team of the team x3, FIFA world 11 2nd team, FIFA world 11 nominee Kyle Walker offers more than Crystal Palace young player of the year Aaron Wan-Bissaka? No mate, again you’re right, Walker gives away too many pens.
To be honest I don’t watch much Serie A but whilst editing Stones’ stats I thought I’d have a look at Cancelo’s, 22 league starts in his last season at Juve, ironically it’s about how many starts Stones will make this season. Coincidence? Or a little hacking joke just for you and me
You sure about this one? Or did he actually play over 30 and 40 games a season the 2 years before signing for City? No no you’re right, I’m the inventor here
As for Gundogan the injury kept him out for over a year and he never got back his 2012/2013 form (before this season)
Concerning Walker, i stand by what i said that he's never been world-class, but i didn't call him just an average player also. His biggest asset has always been his speed, he offers very little offensively and often has some brain fart moments defensively which in the modern game, doesn't make him world-class. But his speed was much needed for a team that played the way City did when they got him.
As for the comparison with Bissaka, they both have poor offensive input but Bissaka has actually progressed in that area (well he's also much younger), while being as good as Walker defensively.