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It is when everyone else is doing 1 good game in 7.
Pogba has been playing in this shitty system of a football for a long time now, we have seen him in Juve and France and he is there thrice the player than for us. I can see so many Jose fanboys running away from the Mourinho thread to find safe haven here, come back there https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...rier-time-again.441140/page-498#post-23360834 , we miss you.
He is the superstar and will remain because he has the highest quality among the others and he will need to lead by example..Even if we bring another good player it won't affect the statue of Pogba, he will still remain the superstar and will have to perform like one. KDB and Hazard are the superstars of their teams and drag them every game even though the had other very good players around them.
Since Pogba has joined and we havent stopped talking about bringing other midfielders to free him, other players to release pressure from him, and another manager with a play style whom he likes. Surely by this point you'll start get bored of all these excuses thrown at him to justify his inconsistency. I have never seen a 89m player who needs all these conditions to perform week in week out.
We have done nothing since he joined except clutching at straws that he will be great for us one day when we settle the whole team around him, which is for me, just a desperate way of thinking. We will be in a better position if we do what Liverpool did with Coutinho.
We'd be bottom half of the table, probably hovering above the relegation zone without Pogba this season. Yes some of his mannerisms can be annoying. Yes its also annoying that Pogba showed at the world cup he can be tasked with defensive duties for a short tournament and do a great job for his country, but on a weekly basis at United he doesnt want to do it.
But he's our only creativity from midfield
He's the only one who finds a good forward pass to create a chance. He's also our most accurate shooter with lots of attempts on target.
I think this also shows that Fred should be playing more often.
But he's our only creativity from midfield
He's the only one who finds a good forward pass to create a chance. He's also our most accurate shooter with lots of attempts on target.
I think this also shows that Fred should be playing more often.
Again you are pay attention to the price tag far too much. You really need to get over it. We paid for it as that's what it took to get him. We're never getting that money back. No need to harp on it. I frankly don't care whether he lives up to that price tag or not. What I care about is making the best team and if he's been better than his teammates then frankly I don't want him to leave. I want his teammates to get better.
I don't have to throw excuses. I just know for a fact that he's been our best midfielder this season and arguably our best player after de Gea with only Martial recently challenging for that spot and Shaw challenging for that spot at the beginning of the season. That's a fact. He's one of the last players I want rid because he's one of our top talents.
Having said all of this, yes you can recognize that Pogba was horrible yesterday. Those two moments of brain farts where he lost the ball were particularly bad and I think that is the cause for all this hyperbole regarding him. He's not like this everytime and we all know this based on how he's performed for us.
We can't simply get over the "price tag". What he is doing would have been Ok if he's a 40-50m player but if you are going to pay that much for a player he will need to be your main super star and the icon of the team. The value of the player is by how much you paid for him to get such performance from him and till he performs like a 89m player, he will stillbe rightly criticized.
Yes, he's our best player in terms of quality, so fans need to have higher expectation for him, stop excusing him every time he drops a stinker and demands him to perform consistently and lead by example. The fact he's our best player, and a former most expensive player in the world, means the standard of evaluating him is much higher than his teammates.
What a disgusting performance from our most expensive signing!!! He was happily giving away the ball just like Christmas gifts..
Losing the ball like that is criminal, but his reaction to it is absolutely horrendous. He is an excellent player, but should we keep him if he is only turning up once in 5 matches?
Obviously Mourinhos fault.
The feeling I get with Pogba is "will he turn up today" and that isn't something you should feel about an 89m player.
Not sure how I excused him when I said he played horrible. I just think wanting rid of one of our best players is not bright. I don't care about players' price tags. I would take an underperforming Pogba all the time over someone who is worse than him, but performs better than his own price tag.
Reading your posts, it's obvious you don't feel that way.
Mourinho need to be sacked (won't happen until April/May) and this twat needs to be sold (hopefully happen next month).
I want consistency in performance, that's all.
So do I, but I apply that want to the entire squad and base my squad building hopes on that consistent assessment. Whoever is performing the best should stay and whoever is clearly not good enough needs to go. I don't believe Pogba falls into the latter category and his price tag doesn't change that fact. Judging players by their price tags means you're judging the rest of the players on a curve.
Like I understand judging players off of price tag based on future transfer windows because there is limited money in a single transfer window. So I do get your sentiment. But we're currently not in a place where we should be replacing Pogba first and foremost.
The problem is you can't evaluate Pogba on the same standards as say Herrera and Fellaini. We know these players are limited and are good at specific roles. Pogba has the highest quality in the squad, so the standards of evaluating him is harsher. He needs to be performing week in week out. I won't be surprised if a squad playee like Herrera couldn't. It's not much to ask that from your super star.
I understand expectations, but those expectations shouldn't override your judgement over who should leave or not. Why would you want to keep Herrera and Fellaini over Pogba? You shouldn't want that. If we get better players we can eventually give Pogba smaller wages that fit his performance level better. I prefer that method to lowering cost rather than just getting rid of the most talented players.
There are numerous ways we can tackle the problem of handling the wage bill and transfer spending. It starts with not giving out wages to players who are clearly not superstars, are not evaluated that way by other clubs, and where United aren't competing for said player. Just look at the Lingard situation. His wages are absurd for the leverage United had. He obviously would not get huge wages at another club. He's a local lad so no problem of him leaving to somewhere more prestigious, and nobody was really competing for his services. Yet we pay him like we didn't have leverage in the situation.
Or how about replacing squad players who were transferred in with youth players so you don't have to spend money on transfer fees.
Point is, we shouldn't worry about the money when it comes to Pogba's price tag. We can find ways to balance that sort of stuff in order to retain the best talents at the club.
He's a great player but he frustrates the feck out of me. It's almost as if he knows he's too good to be dropped, he obviously doesn't listen when told to stop all this lackadaisical showboating. He's deliberately choosing not to do as he's told at this point.
I didn't say I want him to be the only goner. Also, if he's performing consistency week in week out I would like him to stay. The problem is we have a player that doesn't perform consistently, very moody and can be worth 150m alone in the market for his hype. You can recover on the money you spent on him, and use it to strenghten with 2-3 good players, exactly like Liverpool did with Coutinho. Some times you need to sell big to build a proper team, instead of hanging on super stars that aren't performing much and the rest of the team is mediocre. Herrera and Fellaini won't value much in the market.
Of course he starts to act like a real super star and perform week in week out I won't want him gone, but as it stands, I don't think with a proper planning we can end being in better position than now.
The problem with Pogba is I don't think he's going to work unless we hand him a full super stars team like Juve and France and no English club can afford that. There's no Kante, Matuidi, Pirlo or Vidal to cover for him. In England you need to do your dirty job as a midfielder otherwise you will be a hindrance whenever your team doesn't have the ball. He doesn't get that. He loses the ball and immediately forget about it, like it's someone else role to get it back. You need to go and fecking press your opponent who gets the ball from you. You can escape from this in Italy or with France especially when you have world class all around you but not in England. I made an example of how Fabregas ended up at Chelsea when he stopped doing any CM roles.
Super star this, super star that, listen to yourself! For me the problem begins and ends with the manager. Everyone turns to shit when they sign for this club these days. Mourinho can't even bring out the best in his pet Matic but continues to play him at every opportunity. You simply don't prioritize selling your best player before he even enters his peak years. Others should be shown the door first.
With the exception of Martial lately and Shaw, none of our outfield players are showing any kind of consistency. Pogba deserves sharp criticism for diabolical performances like yesterday but the issues of inconsistency are abound everywhere else on the pitch. Which player with 'super star' quality would you replace Pogba with and what would you expect from him in this current United setup? I don't think any of the players you mentioned in your post above would magically change our fortunes. I don't see anyone clamoring to play alongside the likes of Fellaini and Matic week in week out and under a manager who throws players under the bus at every opportunity, totally absolving himself of blame for anything that goes wrong on and off the pitch.
Mourinho needs to be sacked ASAP, but it's deluded to think that Pogba inconsistency is down to the manager. He has been as inconsistent in his first season when his relationship with Mourinho was good, and had exactly same problems as now. He's just a moody player. His form for France was massively criticized as well prior to this World Cup.
The excuses are running thin for him anyway. First season it was because of absence of defensive midfielders, then second season it was because he doesn't play in 4-3-3, this season it's because of Mourinho. Let's go on with this now ok ? Next season he will finally run out of these lame excuses and it will be clear to everyone his problem is in him and he needs to feck off. I'm pretty sure everyone has been afraid to admit it ever since his first season here.
Has that really stopepd being the case? Pogba was consistently excellent when Matic first arrived, with 8 goals or assists in his first 8 games. Then he got suspended and struggled with an injury, Matic started to quickly fade and we haven't had a defensive midfielder since.
Everyone has been saying if we set up the way Juventus set up, where he was consistent, we would get the player we paid for. For the past 12 months we have been playing with a defensive midfielder who can't move anymore and a mixture of a 6'+ target man, a frenetic Spaniard, a Brazilian unknown quantity and McTominay. Hardly Pirlo and Marchisio.
He played great 4 games at start of last season before getting injured for 2 months, returned and played 2 good games against Arsenal and Newcastle before getting suspended, then his problems started to happen with Mourinho at Spurs match, then the season went to shite.
At Juve he had Pirlo and Vidal with him. Will be impossible for us to acquire a midfield of such quality to cover for everyone. I don't think most English teams bar City can. He will simply have to play as a proper midfielder if he wants to succeed in England. No team pays 89m for a player then needs to pay 150m more millions on his teammates for that player to be consistent let's be honest.
I really don't find any problem with him trying to tackle or press the player who cuts the ball from him. What's hard in this ?
Let's just hope he's playing this way because of Mourinho. Else we are in huge trouble.
Pogba need someone else to make him tick is a myth, what Pogba as every attack minded player needs is a good set up. He isn't the one to keep tracking the runners from midfield, he is the one who can pick the passes from deep or in final third. With how static our players are, no wonder he can't pick a pass. It was obvious from watching games. He picks up the ball, look up, when there is no movement he make gestures to make runs and then either just make simple pass or try to do fancy trick and lose possession. Obviously he can just keep it simple everytime when no player is making runs but that's just a waste of talent. He isn't the player to keep it simple, term caf are obsessed with.
Also like you said, he is playing with a CM who can't move or defend, a CM whose sole purpose is winning headers and a striker who can't hold the ball.
His performance was a disgrace vs Sputhampton, he just gave up and didn't even bother to try which was very disappointing. But in general Jose is the worst thing that could have happen to Pogba.
I agree with alot of this.
If Pogba was on any other top team like juve, Barca or city he would look as good as he does for France.
Our attack and midfield is stagnant, there is barely any moment up top or around him. Even de bruyne wouldn't look as good (he would try harder I'm sure but still wouldn't be as effective.)
Pogba can do better but he isnt the root cause of the issues facing the team at the moment.
The set-up and the poor quality of team-mates don’t excuse the lack of passion and energy shown by Pogba on Saturday. So often he gave the ball away and just stood still and basically shrugged. Even if you are having an “off day” you can at least make an effort.
Cant agree with that. It doesn't need to be big names... we don't need to go out and buy the next Matthaus and Xavi. Liverpool are performing with a midfield of Jordan Henderson, James Milner and Georgino Wijnaldum. You don't need stars if you have a consistent lineup and drill a specific way of playing. Forgetting the form of any of our players we have:
Matic - likes to hold the ball and take it through midfield
Fellaini - likes to get forward and win headers
Pogba - likes to dribble, create chances with incisive long passes to runners
Herrera - likes quick one two passing around the middle
Mata - likes quick passing and short through balls to create chances
Fred - seems like he's all about quick short and medium passing
When you look at the usual mix of styles we put on the field its no wonder we look disjointed. 150m on another random assortment wont help but 50m on players to fit specific roles would do. We already have the star, a player far better than anyone Liverpool have in that midfield.
We all focus on Pogba not performing as though he's the only one. Nobody is performing, it's just because he came with the price tag.
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Can anyone think of any central midfielder, from any team ever, who plays football the way that Pogba does? I honestly can’t.
Watching André Gomes for Everton yesterday was so depressing. A young, skilful central midfielder who understands what’s needed to play that position. Always in the right place, always making the right decision. Playing the right pass at the right time. It’s a position where the very best players consistently do the simple things well. Not a position for show-boaters or someone who struggles to stay focused on what’s going on around him.
Pogba just doesn’t play the game like any CM I can think of. And that is surely a big fecking problem? Or am I missing something? Can anyone else name a world class CM - from the present or past - that Pogba is close to emulating?
Watching André Gomes for Everton yesterday was so depressing. A young, skilful central midfielder who understands what’s needed to play that position. Always in the right place, always making the right decision. Playing the right pass at the right time. It’s a position where the very best players consistently do the simple things well. Not a position for show-boaters or someone who struggles to stay focused on what’s going on around him.
Pogba just doesn’t play the game like any CM I can think of. And that is surely a big fecking problem? Or am I missing something? Can anyone else name a world class CM - from the present or past - that Pogba is close to emulating?
Grass is always greener Pogue. That's probably the best game I've ever seen Gomes have, and he kept it fairly simple.
Pogba's had plenty of games like that, but it's obviously in his nature to be more progressive.
He really hasn’t had plenty of games like that. It’s just not the way he plays the game.
I don’t want to get too hung up on Pogba vs Gomes comparisons anyway. It’s not about who’s better. It’s about the way that Gomes plays would remind me of loads of other CMs. The likes of Scholes, Modric, or Schweinsteiger. Which top quality CMs does Pogba play like?
His style is pretty unique in the way he uses his body a lot. He likes to let people get close to him so he can hold them off and then either use skill or power to get passed his marker.
Most players want to keep the opposition away, it's a risk as when it goes wrong he looks silly. Obviously when it works he can dance his way out of tight spots and take players out the game.
I suppose Yaya Toure is the closest in style, maybe a young Fabregas in the way he loved to dribble and pass.
He was making it look easy yesterday and you'd think Pogba would be capable of that but something is missing, probably workrate and awareness. He's never had it since the youth team so I don't see it changing now.
I don't like giving excuses that a player needs other specialists alongside him to play well but with Pogba it has thruth to it. In a 3 I think he needs a ball winner and a playmaker alongside him to be at his best, giving him the ball in attacking areas. I still think we could play him on the right instead while we don't have any better options.
Zidane is the obvious one, with the flair, control, strength, skill and passing ability, and the inconsistency. They both have the long legs and the look that they shouldn't be able to move as they can. Possibly Platini too. Given his age and nationality i'd guess they are also the two he grew up modelling his game on.
Your last point although in my mind if you lose the ball you go and try to win it back. There were occasions when he did this and more often than not he does try.
I’m not sure I would say he has a lack of passion, the amount of times he was shouting at people telling them to make runs or asking why they weren’t. That doesn’t seem like someone lacking in passion, he’s the one trying to make stuff happen in pretty much all our games, he’s the one taking the responsibility and he at times is over cooking it looking for the game winning decisive pass all the time instead of just knocking it to the side and repositioning. He does need to get better at realising when his best option is going to be just to knock it off to someone else but even then if your options are Fellaini and Matic who will take an age to do even the simplest of things I can understand why Pogba risks holding on to it.
If we think about it through his eyes your in the game wanting to get the ball and ping passes early but everytime you look up people are either behind you or not making the runs, how frustrated are you going to get.
If anything we need to keep Pogba, get rid of Jose and see if another manager can get the team to work together well so Pogba has those options to play the passes he wants and is so effective at doing.
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The way he dallies on the ball and lets players get close to him, so he can try and out-muscled them, is a dreadful waste of time. It just slows our play down. Same with his fondness for juggling the ball. His just doesn’t seem to have the instincts of all the best CMs. Knowing when to keep it simple and when you can take another touch. There’s so much he does that hinders him in his supposed specialist position.
I’m really struggling to see him ever becoming one of the best in the word as a CM. He seem unable to play football like a CM. Which is why we get so many thousands of words typed about exactly what sort of team-mates and formation is needed to somehow get the best out of him. If you’re having to bend over backwards to accomodate any one player, then surely that player is the main problem?
And there were other situations on top of this.
EDIT: For some reason I can't embed the link.
Actually Liverpool fans have been moaning nonstop about their midfield this season. I don't think it's as working as you or many think it's. Results are better, but performance wise they are far worse than last season once their forward 3 form dropped, their midfield is somewhat getting exposed now.
Look at the other top teams in England and City aside, the rest have 1 or 2 great midfielders with the rest being good/average. The key for all of them is they are just hard workers, do dirty work without the ball and are present on both sides or pitch.
Pogba's problem is that once he loses the ball he's a passenger for his team. He acts as if his job is done once he lost the ball and it's someone else job to recover it. For a midfielder in England, this will never work. You can get out with it in Italy or France but not in England.
Maybe Liverpool are riding their luck this season but you know what i mean, we don't need a team full of stars to perform well.
I also think his lack of effort is overblown. When the team is playing well he works as hard as anyone, and when its not everybody is at fault. How many times do we have to watch Matic jog casually back as he loses his man, but nobody really picks up on that. From what stats i can find (i suspect full data is something you'd have to pay for) he covers more distance per minute than any of our other midfielders. Skysports posted the figures after a few games and Fred was the only comparable one.
The bigger issue is we have been 19th or 20th as a team for distance covered for the last 3 years. When the whole team is doing nothing Pogba seems to show his frustration more than the others and when he gets frustrated he loses his head.
I think he just needs to learn when to use it, and when to keep it moving.
Having that ability on the ball and composure in possession is really handy when in the opponents box, but in our half it's risky.
Honestly i'm sure it could be coached out of him, but our coach right now isn't helping anybody. I do think our lack of movement also makes this worse though. Mcmanaman said in commentary numberous times Pogba would look up to make a pass and they're standing like statues. This makes him hesitate and then has to decide what to do which takes longer.
I didn't say we need a world class midfield to succeed. I said Pogba is the one who needs that around him to succeed, because he's a passenger whenever we don't have the ball.
I'm talking about distance covered or staying in one position, I'm talking about being any useful after lossing the ball and not having out. Once we lose the Pogba acts as his job is done and it's someone else to recover it. This is something stats won't show. It depends on what you're saying. He surely runs a lot but is he any useful or does any defensive dirty work whenever we don't have the ball ? You can't get away with it in England, otherwise you will become a weak point.
My question to you is; who the feck do you want to replace him? We would be screaming for him to come off the bench once we are struggling without him. Genuinely, who do you want on the pitch instead? The extremely average Pereira who's basically never had a great game for us? Without Pogba, our output from midfield would be close to zero. You don't know what you got till' it's gone. Let's do a midfield of Fellaini, Fred and Matic, or McTominay, Matic and Fella and see how that goes - I think I already know the answer to that.
I was writing a long write up regarding Pogba but I just gave up at the end.
United just wear you down.Everything regarding the club is just depressing.
United just wear you down.Everything regarding the club is just depressing.
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