Midfield stats are pointless. His stats against City and Hull would have made it look like he dominated the game and was everywhere as he does g e t a decent amount of tackles in and dribbles the ball past opposing players all the time while getting the most touches for us always, and also getting off a lot of shots.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 51
- Goals
- 9
- Assists
- 6
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
I understand where Pogue is coming from on this. There's just this feeling you get from certain performances where you just feel that something is fundamentally wrong in the team, it's more than just a 'bad performance'. It's almost instinctive when you've been following the club for decades
And for me, the last two games have had that feeling.
On the one hand, I know Pogba is incredibly talented, but then so was/is Di Maria...
It just looks like we have no plan for him, and he looks like a player who needs direction and a system built around him.
And for me, the last two games have had that feeling.
On the one hand, I know Pogba is incredibly talented, but then so was/is Di Maria...
It just looks like we have no plan for him, and he looks like a player who needs direction and a system built around him.
I like someone from midfield dribbling past the players to break the lines at times. But, it seems like that's all he wants to do. Sometimes a simple pass would have raised our tempo and putting the ball in dangerous places for our forwards.
Instead he tries to dribble, to get out of a tight situation and all the open passages for passing are gone. He needs to know when to pass and when to dribble. Especially, he has a good range of passing and we have literally no one who can pass from the deep unless blind or carrck is playing.
Instead he tries to dribble, to get out of a tight situation and all the open passages for passing are gone. He needs to know when to pass and when to dribble. Especially, he has a good range of passing and we have literally no one who can pass from the deep unless blind or carrck is playing.
Yep and they were even more interested in Scholes in 99/2000 and offered record money, Morratti himself confirmed their interest
What he is and has the potential to become like is basically how Gerrard was for Liverpool. He doesnt have that midfield discipline to be a holding mid, nor is he truly comfortable in being a deeper playmaker. He can be that world class 3rd mid though, where he'll pop up with goals out of nothing, create chances, drive forwards on the ball and just generally make things happen. To get the best out of that type of player you have to let him be that and have a solid foundation behind him. Liverpool had Xabi Alonso to control games and then Mascherano for good measure as a defensive mid behind Gerrard when he was at his best. I'm sure most would accept that while Gerrard was a cnut, hes someone that would probably go for the type of crazy money we paid for Pogba.
Let's pretend City and today didn't happen, and the world looked a better place. It's 5 games in, the lad had no preseason, we have a new manager who's still trying to find his best team with players who have not found their form and fitness. We might not see the best of Pogba for a couple of seasons but I refuse to be negative in just September when for years, I've seen players like him go to Real, Barca and Bayern, and finally we have one of the most sort after YOUNG players here.
IMHO he was ok against Hull, bad against City and shite today. I'd be surprised if the stats don't confirm this.
Huh ??
Been watching United and going to OT since the 1957 > 58 season, and I think I know a good player when I see one....And a world-class player when I see one of those, as well....
Given that Pogba's transfer fee and wages and his Pimp's cut are probably going to total about £150 million, can I suggest you make a diary note to yourself to come back on this thread in two or three years time and let's discuss again....
To be honest I can understand it, the last 3 years have taken control of that, so many false dawns, false starts, false positives, every time people begin to regain some hope something happens to just take it away, it's actually quite funny.
- Under Moyes it was that horrible start to the new year in 2014 when we thought we were building momentum/signed Mata and it just crumbled afterwards. Defeats to Spurs, Swansea and Sunderland.
- First season under LVG, after his World Cup, the signings, the new formation, we lost to fecking Swansea at home on day one
Then Di Maria and Falcao came, we battered QPR then lost 5-3 to Leicester.
Had those three great games against Spurs, Liverpool and City where it looked like we could mount a late title challenge but instead we lost to Chelsea, West Brom and got battered at Everton.
- Second season, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger, Memphis, we've finally sorted our midfield!... Nope, 9 games in a row without a win, dumped out the CL.
And again now, win first 3 games, get slapped around by city and the new 89 million pound man isn't making impact. It's actually really funny.
The stats suggest he was slightly better than your assessment.
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/97752
http://www.squawka.com/players/paul...season-2016/2017#641#all-matches#1-4#by-match
I think we realize that's how it is with football in general unless either you are a barca team or SAF is your manager.To be honest I can understand it, the last 3 years have taken control of that, so many false dawns, false starts, false positives, every time people begin to regain some hope something happens to just take it away, it's actually quite funny.
- Under Moyes it was that horrible start to the new year in 2014 when we thought we were building momentum/signed Mata and it just crumbled afterwards. Defeats to Spurs, Swansea and Sunderland.
- First season under LVG, after his World Cup, the signings, the new formation, we lost to fecking Swansea at home on day one
Then Di Maria and Falcao came, we battered QPR then lost 5-3 to Leicester.
Had those three great games against Spurs, Liverpool and City where it looked like we could mount a late title challenge but instead we lost to Chelsea, West Brom and got battered at Everton.
- Second season, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger, Memphis, we've finally sorted our midfield!... Nope, 9 games in a row without a win, dumped out the CL.
And again now, win first 3 games, get slapped around by city and the new 89 million pound man isn't making impact. It's actually really funny.
From whoscored.com (and keep in mind that I'm pretty sure a players rating changes a bit whether the team is winning or losing):
Against Southampton - 8.85
4 shots, 83.3 pass % from 72 passes, 9 dribbles, 2 key passes, 1 tackle, 4 interceptions, dispossessed once, 3 unsuccessful touches
Against Hull - 7.25
6 shots, 86.8 pass % from 91 passes, 1 dribble, 1 key pass, 1 tackle, 1 interception, dispossessed once, 1 unsuccessful touch
Against City - 7.39
1 shot, 77.8 pass % from 45 passes, 5 dribbles, 1 key pass, 2 tackles, 2 interceptions, dispossessed 3 times, 2 unsuccessful touches
Against Feyenoord - 6.94
3 shots, 86.2 pass % from 65 passes, 1 dribble, 2 key passes, 2 tackles, 3 interceptions, dispossessed 6 times, 0 unsuccessful touches
Obviously the Southampton game has the stand out stats because of the dribbles, but apart from that it's not all that different. Today being dispossessed 6 times is pretty horrendous (only watched it on my phone so not sure how everyone really played), but overall his ratings and stats were all pretty good and among the best in our team every time. Just mean to say that stats for mids don't really show much on their overall performance. Like sometimes a player can get loads of tackles, but it means nothing if the opposition dominate the entire game and your positioning is off. Same with pass accuracy. Cleverley always had great accuracy because he did nothing with it. Or amount of dribbles, Pogba always gets loads but often times its very deep like against City where it would've been better if he released it earlier so we can start an attack, so it doesn't really do all that much.
So you're attributing watching football for a long time to be able to access whether a player is world class? That's funny as the term 'world class' is one of the most subjective things in any football debate so if you can make that assessment and not at a top football club, you're wasted.
If you can use your time machine for this weeks lottery numbers, that would be much appreciated. I can never understand why so called fans would have such a negative view of a player that's just arrived at the club. Then they come out with the classic like the money must attribute to his performances like even paying for player a million pounds given the context of kicking a football around is applicable.
Also I'm suggesting you start a 'sack Jose thread' as according to you, he's just wasted 150m. That must be a sackable under gross misconduct!!
He's a revelation, let us be positive and hope he fulfills all the potential here than make the same mistake twice. Now where's my wine and cheese.....
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That's just not true. More creative midfield players will have more key passes. Midfield players that can move the ball forward by going past players will have more completed dribbles. Pogba is one of the best midfielders in that regard and his stats showed as much at Juventus. If I'm not mistaken he was the highest rated midfielder around Europe. Schneiderlin played far better for Southampton and it showed in his rating. He had season rating of 7.5 and was voted Southampton's best player during his last year. The stats definitely show a trend and the best midfield players tend to be the highest rated ones on whoscored and squawka. Also, whoscored doesn't factor in how accurate a player's passing is. Squawka does. As always stats need to be used in the context of the game and they are certainly helpful.
Why wait 2 or 3 years, you've been watching Utd since 57, you're clearly a football oracle. Let's get rid of him now, and sack Jose for gross misconduct for wasting 150m of Utds money. Full bodied red, you need a blood transfusion....and a brain transplant
Hes plays like hes a winger instead of a midfielder
Are you implying Lampard was a superstar that could carry a team?
He'll be fine, started the same last season until he really started to get going then he was unplayable. You can pretty much judge his form on his shooting. When he's on song almost every shot he takes hits the target, right now he's more a danger to fans. The talent is clear to se, just needs to get the rust off. Think the pundits were saying was right, in the soton game he was playing on adrenaline and now that, that is gone its clear to see he hasn't had a pre season.
some of them did come off well.
Some of the criticism is over the top. He'd come good.
We need to play him in the position we played Fellaini a few years ago.
We need to play him in the position we played Fellaini a few years ago.
He has always been Lampard-esque in the sense that, like the Chelsea legend, he doesn't usually dominate the 90 minutes of a game. He pops up with 2-3 moments of magic per match but outside of that, his influence is pretty limited. He occasionally plays an absolute blinder of a game, but he doesn't do it night in and out. He has all the tools, and the right manager, to change this though.
I only saw the last 30 minutes, but the team looked uninspired from what I saw. I'll watch the rest of the match sometime tomorrow.
I think it's idiotic to even mention his price 4 games into his first season at United in which he has possibly 4 more years left. Even if he had scored a goal in every appearance thus far, it would be idiotic to bring up his price as it is only 4 games in.
Some of you guys need to get over the price.
It's exactly like that. People on the Internet are always right, are either haters or fanboys and nothing in between, have agendas instead of opinions, and always know better than the ones doing the actual work.
You all need to calm your tits. Midfielders tend to take longer to find their feet. Look at Modric at Madrid or Carrick first year with us. Nothing spectacular.
It's pretty obvious now that he is a lot better in a compact system when he has bodies around him. He needs quick interplay and give and go to drive forward and always seems a bit lost for options when he has no one in the 10 yard radius and ends up going for the long ball. A 4-3-3 with a similar shape to what we had when LvG went on that nice run and had interplays between the likes of Mata, Herrera and Valencia would be best for him.
I said it before we signed him that people tend to be misguided about what he's going to bring to the team. He's obviously a much better player than he has shown so far but unless he changes his style, he's never going to be someone who runs games from. midfield on a consistent basis. He's more of a "moments/highlights" player.
That would be the same position he played against Feyenoord.
To be honest I can understand it, the last 3 years have taken control of that, so many false dawns, false starts, false positives, every time people begin to regain some hope something happens to just take it away, it's actually quite funny.
- Under Moyes it was that horrible start to the new year in 2014 when we thought we were building momentum/signed Mata and it just crumbled afterwards. Defeats to Spurs, Swansea and Sunderland.
- First season under LVG, after his World Cup, the signings, the new formation, we lost to fecking Swansea at home on day one
Then Di Maria and Falcao came, we battered QPR then lost 5-3 to Leicester.
Had those three great games against Spurs, Liverpool and City where it looked like we could mount a late title challenge but instead we lost to Chelsea, West Brom and got battered at Everton.
- Second season, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger, Memphis, we've finally sorted our midfield!... Nope, 9 games in a row without a win, dumped out the CL.
And again now, win first 3 games, get slapped around by city and the new 89 million pound man isn't making impact. It's actually really funny.
You're not wrong and what's really fecking depressing is the similarity in the shit performances over those three seasons. Ponderous and unimaginative going forward, while capable of conceding a soft goal at any moment. Different players (bought at ludicrous expense) but the same old shit on the pitch. Meanwhile, teams around us are visibly changing their style with each managerial appointment and doing it quickly.
Like you say, it's so harsh on us fans it's almost like a black comedy. I'm closer to crying than laughing though.
Moving back on topic, even Pogba is following the same soul-destroying narrative of players like Di Maria and Falcao. Really exciting debut, followed by swift decline and circular arguments about the manager not using him properly. While any genuinely world class attacking/creative players signed by the other big clubs seem to hit the ground running and immediately start to dominate games, scoring and assisting in bucket-loads from day one. It's excruciating.
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It is only September though.
It is and it can all still turn around. It bloody better had. And quickly. Because all the teams we aspire to beat are looking in ominous form already.
Wouldn't say Falcao was exciting in his debut at all. Just it was exciting to see him play. He looked off the pace from the start IMO.
Di Maria is a different story.
Wasn't Falcao's debut the one where he hit the bar with a sublime volleyed chip? That felt like a taste of things to come.
That was the infamous 5-3 Leicester game. He did set up RVP's goal tbf, but his debut was actually vs QPR at OT. When we won 4-0. Iirc, he missed a good chance.
Still, I just felt he was off. He had his moments at the start, but he looked tumescent and slow. Nothing like the Atleti Falcao.
I feel this too and its difficult to pinpoint exactly where we are going wrong as a club because we are buying players, making the necessary changes when needed but as always we always leave ourselves feeling like the team is incomplete. Another thing is that managers seem to lose any semblance of football IQ when they join us - how else can we explain Mourinho freezing out Carrick ( I believe that without a Caarick type of player our build up will always suffer) or choosing Rojo and Jones ahead of CBJ+TFM? These are judgement calls I feel the manager has gotten wrong but they don't explain away the depths to which this team can sink at the click of a button.
I am quite confident it will. Call it blind faith perhaps.
Our squad has got the quality to be in the top 3 this year and while I was never a big fan of Jose, he is one of the best league managers around. Even under SAF, I can't remember many seasons we came flying out of the stalls. He will need to adapt to having additional Thursday games but I am positive the team will click.
It is interesting you say this. Having followed United for 29 years I did have that feeling in the Moyes and LVG years, though I still supported giving LVG more time.
This year, however I don't quite feel that malaise, for lack of a better word. It feels more like a lack of familiarity and tentativeness that comes from building something fresh.
Maybe it is because this year we have players like Ibra, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Bailly who feel like they are going to keep trying against the odds.
We have better players, and a supposedly better manager, which makes it even worse in a way. All we can hope is that this turns from sour into something good soon. I hate losing hope of a league title 2/3s into a season though, would be nice if we could maintain.
I can understand these choices, they are not daft, IMO. We are building a new team and relying on too many oldish players doesn'tmake sense. We have Zlatan who is going to be 35 in several weeks and Rooney, 31. I can understand also choosing experienced players over unproven youngsters, given that the batttle for the title and even for the top 4 is going to be fierce.
But I can't understand the type of football Mou wants to implement here. It looks dinosaurish most of the time. And it was the same at Chelsea for 25 out of the 30 months he was there. He had only one good spell for about 5 months in 2014/15--mostly due to the outstanding form of Hazard, Fabregas and Costa--but the team almost collapsed in the final months, lost from 10 man PSG and won the title for the sheer lack of serious competition. I suspect that Madrid changed Mou. For worse.
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