[balaks]

He has set up alot of chances from seemingly nothing (check the 2 over the top balls last night) so he is more creative and has a much better eye for a pass. Rooney tries 'hollywood' passes but those are just long floated balls to the side generally, not going forward. Pogba has a better first touch, more agile, better balance, better in the air, quicker.... I'll leave it that because I feel stupid even having to justify how Paul fecking Pogba is a better option in midfield than Wayne Rooney who has been finished for well over 18 months.

It does prove that the fact you are even having to justify your opinion on it suggests that Pogba has been underwhelming. Otherwise nobody would even be questioning it.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

It does prove that the fact you are even having to justify your opinion on it suggests that Pogba has been underwhelming. Otherwise nobody would even be questioning it.

I justified it because that guy clearly doesn't watch much football if he thinks Rooney should be starting in midfield and we not bother with Pogba.

He has been underwhelming at times, But he has been excellent in some games to. At his age you have to take the rough with the smooth, especially consideing it's his first season and the first few months he was moved positions numerous times. Not sure what point you are trying to make to be honest.

 

[Pexbo]

I'm not overrating Scholes, I think you may be underrating him though. Scholes was one of the finest midfielders of his generation. Pogba has shown flashes of great stuff but mostly he has been at best average and at worst abject. He is turning 24 in a matter of weeks. Now I'm not saying that I don't rate him because I do. I am saying however that for a player of his reputation he has been an almost total disappointment so far. I also find it bizarre that some people actually feel comfortable comparing him to a player like Scholes and appear to be unaware that them doing that only makes Pobga appear worse.

We are talking about a 22 year old Scholes here and you are talking about him as if he is the finished product and a midfield mastermind. Scholes didn't move back into a proper midfield role until around 98 and even then he had the force of nature that was Roy Keane doing the controlling and dictating next to him.

When Van Nistelrooy signed, he pushed forward into the second striker role.

It wasn't until around 2005 when he started to dictate everything from a deeper role and everything went through him.

My point is that it's not fair to compare the 22 year old second striker with Keane and Butt behind him to the 23 year old Pogba who plays a far deeper role and spends much of his time around his own half way line. It's just a pointless exercise.


It's also a pointless exercise whinging about a 23 year old's inevitable drop in form. He was absolutely brilliant for a long stretch this season but I don't see people judging his potential on that.

 

[balaks]

We are talking about a 22 year old Scholes here and you are talking about him as if he is the finished product and a midfield mastermind. Scholes didn't move back into a proper midfield role until around 98 and even then he had the force of nature that was Roy Keane doing the controlling and dictating next to him.

When Van Nistelrooy signed, he pushed forward into the second striker role.

It wasn't until around 2005 when he started to dictate everything from a deeper role and everything went through him.

My point is that it's not fair to compare the 22 year old second striker with Keane and Butt behind him to the 23 year old Pogba who plays a far deeper role and spends much of his time around his own half way line. It's just a pointless exercise.


It's also a pointless exercise whinging about a 23 year old's inevitable drop in form. He was absolutely brilliant for a long stretch this season but I don't see people judging his potential on that.

Was he? I'm not sure I can agree with that. He has had the odd game when he looked like he could be a great player but I dont remember many games when he has dominated a match. I'm sure you could pick out a few but to say 'absolutely brilliant for a long stretch' I think is over doing it a bit. I understand people are desperate for him to do well but let's be honest, he has overall been very disappointing considering his reputation and the fact he is currently the most expensive player on the planet. I'd expected a lot more from him.

 

[Rado_N]

Lets remember that this was the post you're replying too:



Which then led you to proceed to lecture me and all of us about the economics of a player transfer to then conclude by saying that you think the excuse is that Pogba is 'burned out and fatigued'. I concluded virtually every post by saying 'You might be right to dismiss Pogba's poor performances so far, time will tell' or a variant thereof and then you proceeded to come back everytime to talk about marketability.

So I come back to the original point. You stated it was stupid that people were talking about the 'mythical concept of a £90m player' when talking about Pogba, but by your own admission in the last sentence he's struggling to live up to expectations. All I want you to talk about is what you think fair expectations are for him? Based on his reputation, and yes his transfer fee, his squad status, his wages, his prior performances even, I don't think its unfair to expect him to be world class, but you have some making huge allowances for him because he's young and learning as if he's an academy graduate getting his first run in the side. So which is it?

Judge him as a player, judge him based on what you think he's capable of, judge him based on his previous performances and what you perceive to be his potential. Just him based on what he does on the pitch and only what he does on the pitch.

Transfer fees have become more and more detached from the real world and are so wildly variable that attempting to judge a player based on some intangible concept of an "£Xm player" will never make sense. Is Pogba performing 60% better than John Stones? Is he 50% better than Oscar in China? Is he twice as good as Sterling? None of those comparisons make sense.

Rival fans will take the piss when an expensive transfer isn't an instant success, but I would expect fans of the same club to be able to rationally discuss performances based on more than that.

My mentioning marketability is in no way a defense of his recent performance level. He's not been good enough. Full stop. Not "not good enough for a £90m player", just not good enough.

The marketing issue is, however, entirely relevant to why he cost so much money. Adidas will be happier paying us big money when they can show him in United adverts, as will every other company we have sponsorship deals with, he drives internet traffic and makes advertising have more impact on target demographics. That means it forms a part of the cost/benefit analysis when out CEO decides how much he's willing to pay, along with X number of other things, which is why deriding a player based on a transfer fee is pointless.

I'm not saying he's playing well at the moment. He's not (although he's not as bad as some are making out and others have been worse). I'm just saying leave the money out of it.

And now I really am done.

 

[m1y2]

he's still young and that kind of player who will be inconsistent, he should start weher he started when he hit the form, trying to do some basic stuff and slowly grew in the the game, work hard. stop dyeing your fecking hair every game tho..

 

[BringNaniBack]

He should be dropped. He is actually completely average in every aspect of the game other than long rang passing and even then he needs huge amounts of time and space on the ball. Fellaini and Rooney are better midfielders than him right now and i'm not even joking.

 

[Stacks]

That's nonsense to be honest. Scholes had Keane and Butt providing the discipline and aggression behind him. Scholes never shyed away from anything but he had a very different role and very different responsibility to what Pogba has at 23 years old and was playing in a much more established team.

Pogba has Carrick and Herrera providing the discipline behind him in many games.
At 23-24 Scholes was in the 97/98 season. Ince was gone by then, Roy Keane was out for the season. He played CM with Butt. In fact this was the 1st season Scholes moved into CM. I don't see what's so different. Scholes was a key player in our title charge and our midfield. without Keane, he would be our main midfield playmaker from the middle whilst Giggs and Becks hit the byeline. One could argue he had more responsibility as he played in a midfield 2 and didn't have complete freedom offered in a midfield 3. He also did not have an experienced legend (Keane) to coach him through that year although Butt is good player.

Anyways Pogba/ Scholes comparisons are silly as are Pogba/Zidane comparisons. When people talk about Pogba and drag names like Zidane and Scholes into the equation, they are setting themselves up for disaster. We know how highly those 2 behemoths are thought of by other world class midfielders and how they are looked at with adoration, pretty much talked about as 2 of the best of their generation and all time. Pogba has too much to do to enter that conversation so we should walk, before running to comparisons to these greats.

 

[Stacks]

He should be dropped. He is actually completely average in every aspect of the game other than long rang passing and even then he needs huge amounts of time and space on the ball. Fellaini and Rooney are better midfielders than him right now and i'm not even joking.

I don't think he should be dropped, same as I don't think Martial should ever be dropped. Both have more talent than our other options and should be allowed to develop together. Ronaldo and Rooney were inconsistent when young but we played them into development because we knew of their massive potential. There are players who need to be the exception

 

[Cassidy]

Despite being average/poor yesterday he still created most of our chances.

 

[BringNaniBack]

I don't think he should be dropped, same as I don't think Martial should ever be dropped. Both have more talent than our other options and should be allowed to develop together. Ronaldo and Rooney were inconsistent when young but we played them into development because we knew of their massive potential. There are players who need to be the exception

I agree on Martial, he needs to play as even when having an off game he can change the game with some magic. I don't really feel the same with Pogba, he repeatedly goes missing and is always average and I don't even think he produces moments of magic often enough to keep him in the team. I don't think he is as talented as we are hoping. He is not the same as Rooney or Ronaldo who were both beasts in their own right and could win a game on their own from a young age. What can Pogba actually do to become this great player he is supposedly going to be? He needs to improve on the basics and I don't think he will ever do that. He can't handle fast paced games at all and never will.

 

[ElQuesoGrande]

He has set up alot of chances from seemingly nothing (check the 2 over the top balls last night) so he is more creative and has a much better eye for a pass. Rooney tries 'hollywood' passes but those are just long floated balls to the side generally, not going forward. Pogba has a better first touch, more agile, better balance, better in the air, quicker.... I'll leave it that because I feel stupid even having to justify how Paul fecking Pogba is a better option in midfield than Wayne Rooney who has been finished for well over 18 months.

So in my post where I state that the only thing Pogba is offering that is better is lofted long balls...your response starts by bringing up the two long balls I acknowledge. I rest my case.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Judge him as a player, judge him based on what you think he's capable of, judge him based on his previous performances and what you perceive to be his potential. Just him based on what he does on the pitch and only what he does on the pitch.

Transfer fees have become more and more detached from the real world and are so wildly variable that attempting to judge a player based on some intangible concept of an "£Xm player" will never make sense. Is Pogba performing 60% better than John Stones? Is he 50% better than Oscar in China? Is he twice as good as Sterling? None of those comparisons make sense.

Rival fans will take the piss when an expensive transfer isn't an instant success, but I would expect fans of the same club to be able to rationally discuss performances based on more than that.

My mentioning marketability is in no way a defense of his recent performance level. He's not been good enough. Full stop. Not "not good enough for a £90m player", just not good enough.

The marketing issue is, however, entirely relevant to why he cost so much money. Adidas will be happier paying us big money when they can show him in United adverts, as will every other company we have sponsorship deals with, he drives internet traffic and makes advertising have more impact on target demographics. That means it forms a part of the cost/benefit analysis when out CEO decides how much he's willing to pay, along with X number of other things, which is why deriding a player based on a transfer fee is pointless.

I'm not saying he's playing well at the moment. He's not (although he's not as bad as some are making out and others have been worse). I'm just saying leave the money out of it.

And now I really am done.

You are, and remain, the only one of us to refer to the specific of his fee. My only reference to it is the fact that he is the most expensive player in the world, which is in a large part a reflection of how highly the club rate him as a footballer. Despite your arguments about how the fee came to be, it is undeniably a source of the high expectations on Pogba. Expectations he's struggling to meet. That might be unfair, but it comes with the territory.

 

[Coxy]

good player - albeit I agree with Rio when he said he shouldn't be worrying about goal celebrations and instead just concentrate on playing well.

The problem is though - you signed him as the world's most expensive player. Yes he is a good player and will get even better. But he is not the sort of player who can turn matches around for you. For that sort of money you kind of want that

You needed improving in the middle yes - but just look at the money spent on someone like Kante....

 

[Agni]

Not good enough as either CAM or CDM positions. Can only play as a CM with dedicated CDM and CAM alongside him.

Might be an unpopular opinion here but he's terribly limited. Only thing is he has age in his side to adapt defensive and/or creative responsibilities.

 

[Rado_N]

You are, and remain, the only one of us to refer to the specific of his fee. My only reference to it is the fact that he is the most expensive player in the world, which is in a large part a reflection of how highly the club rate him as a footballer. Despite your arguments about how the fee came to be, it is undeniably a source of the high expectations on Pogba. Expectations he's struggling to meet. That might be unfair, but it comes with the territory.

lol

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

So in my post where I state that the only thing Pogba is offering that is better is lofted long balls...your response starts by bringing up the two long balls I acknowledge. I rest my case.

Err no. You asked what he has done the last few games and what his better attributes were, so I told you.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

His fee is a factor though. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. It's the elephant in the room whenever watching him.

With what he's shown this season thus far, how much would everyone here value him at? Just on a footballing basis?

He's played virtually every game for more than half a season, and the team is literally built around him, but for me we could've done a lot more with the money...

I'd say his football is around the level of a good 35m player - no shame in that, at all. But a long way from what we're paying for.

 

[Cassidy]

His fee is a factor though.

With what he's shown this season thus far, how much would everyone here value him at? Just on a footballing basis?

He's played virtually every game for more than half a season, and the team is literally built around him, but for me we could've done a lot more with the money...

I'd say his football is around the level of a good 35m player - no shame in that, at all. But a long way from what we're paying for.

Whilst I don't think hes been brilliant, I will say that he should probably have the most assists in the league already (if not for the teams crap finishing) and will hit double figures in all comps for goals from CM. Not sure you get that for 35m.

He does need to improve all round though and be more consistent. I'm really disappointed in his performances in the big games.

 

[Pexbo]

His fee is a factor though. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. It's the elephant in the room whenever watching him.

With what he's shown this season thus far, how much would everyone here value him at? Just on a footballing basis?

He's played virtually every game for more than half a season, and the team is literally built around him, but for me we could've done a lot more with the money...

I'd say his football is around the level of a good 35m player - no shame in that, at all. But a long way from what we're paying for.

It's not a zero sum game though, whether people like it or not, a good portion of that transfer fee will have been for his marketing potential.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

It's not a zero sum game though, whether people like it or not, a good portion of that transfer fee will have been for his marketing potential.

Fair enough.

So how much do you think he's actually worth - including the 'marketing potential'?

 

[Rory 7]

A year older than Roy Keane when he joined us.

THIS!

 

[NinjaFletch]

lol

You're the one thats been banging on about £90m, but how its not really £90m because of factors, hence why I was trying to get you to elaborate on what the 'real' fee you think we paid for Paul Pogba the footballer was. The fact you think its worthy of a lol to suggest that would indicate to me you didn't real engage with what I was saying, but conflated it with what others have said which would also explain why you keeping talking about social media.

Regardless of how the fee was calculated Paul Pogba is the most expensive footballer ever. It's undeniable that that creates a sense of expectation and I don't know why you're arguing against it.

 

[Adam-Utd]

His fee is a factor though. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. It's the elephant in the room whenever watching him.

With what he's shown this season thus far, how much would everyone here value him at? Just on a footballing basis?

He's played virtually every game for more than half a season, and the team is literally built around him, but for me we could've done a lot more with the money...

I'd say his football is around the level of a good 35m player - no shame in that, at all. But a long way from what we're paying for.

Pogba is making a clear direct goal scoring opportunity pretty much EVERY game. There isn't many players in the league doing that. The other players are just not finishing them. Rashford had to score last night for example.

 

[Pexbo]

Fair enough.

So how much do you think he's actually worth - including the 'marketing potential'?

What we paid. His marketing potential is huge, the club will make a fortune from that in the next decade and that's just talking directly merchandising and his image rights for advertising campaigns and the like. You then have to factor in how many nippers will start following United just to watch him play.

In terms of Footballing ability, I still think he possesses every tool required to be a world class midfielder. People are so fickle on here and he's only as good as his last game. He should have had far more assists than he has but other players finishing is out of his hands and despite what people will say about him holding on to the ball too long, there's been a marked difference in our midfield's ability to not shit it's pants when the opposition presses. If they deny that they have a very short memory.

He's 23 years old, coming back to a league he never really played in, playing for a new manager who is still learning about the team and trying to coach them to play better as a unit. While Pogba get's all the grief, it's forgotten that the other two thirds of the midfield trio that turned our season around have also gone missing completely. Herrera's been worse than Pogba these last few games while Carrick has had zero influence either.

As we've got better and become a threat again, teams have realised that getting stuck into us and pressuring our backline is no longer the go to tactic and adjusted their tactics accordingly and we've yet to figure out a plan B.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's not a zero sum game though, whether people like it or not, a good portion of that transfer fee will have been for his marketing potential.

The fee is so off the hook enormous we don't need to get hung up on a breakdown in terms of marketability vs what he produces on the pitch.

Whichever way we spin this he's a player that was signed as someone who would consistently be our best player (or top three, at the very least) and one of the best players in the league. That's the expectation when any club pays that sort or money for a player, no matter how marketable they are.

He may still go on to tick all those boxes and, if so, great. He's a long way short of it so far, though. Which is a problem and hurting us in this league campaign.

What makes it depressing is that other elite clubs who broke the bank to sign very expensive players seem to have got a more rapid and more comprehensive return on their investment in the only way that fans should care about. Performances on the pitch. I mean, just look at what Juve did with the money we gave them for Pogba? Everyone laughed at the money they spent on a visibly overweight Gonzalo Higuain. 15 goals in 21 appearances later...

The one and only mitigating factor I'm clinging to is his age. But that's cold comfort when you see how quickly youngsters like De Bruyne or Neymar (and, quite possibly, Gabriel Jesus) looked like money very well spent. At the end of the day we thought we signed one of the most elite players in the world. It's reasonable to worry about how far he looks from that right now.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Pogba is making a clear direct goal scoring opportunity pretty much EVERY game. There isn't many players in the league doing that. The other players are just not finishing them. Rashford had to score last night for example.

So how much do you think he's actually worth?

 

[Cassidy]

The fee is so off the hook enormous we don't need to get hung up on a breakdown in terms of marketability vs what he produces on the pitch.

Whichever way we spin this he's a player that was signed as someone who would consistently be our best player (or top three, at the very least) and one of the best players in the league. That's the expectation when any club pays that sort or money for a player, no matter how marketable they are.

He may still go on to tick all those boxes and, if so, great. He's a long way short of it so far, though. Which is a problem and hurting us in this league campaign.

What makes it depressing is that other elite clubs who broke the bank to sign very expensive players seem to have got a more rapid and more comprehensive return on their investment in the only way that fans should care about. Performances on the pitch. I mean, just look at what Juve did with the money we gave them for Pogba? Everyone laughed at the money they spent on a visibly overweight Gonzalo Higuain. 15 goals in 21 appearances later...

The one and only mitigating factor I'm clinging to is his age. But that's cold comfort when you see how quickly youngsters like De Bruyne or Neymar (and, quite possibly, Gabriel Jesus) looked like money very well spent. At the end of the day we thought we signed one of the most elite players in the world. It's reasonable to worry about how far he looks from that right now.

I fully agree with you, however Pogba is doing his job in creating shit loads of chances for his teammates (even if his overrall performances have not been up to where we want)
So its all relative in a way

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Although, trying to be positive, you can think about the more gradual progress of a young Luis Suarez or Sterling at City...

 

[Adam-Utd]

So how much do you think he's actually worth?

Just as much as Sterling or De Bruyne, £50m no problem. That extra 30m can easily come from his marketing capabilities.

The fact is though we had to pay what Juve wanted, not what he was "worth". No big transfer is truly what a players actual worth it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I fully agree with you, however Pogba is doing his job in creating shit loads of chances for his teammates (even if his overrall performances have not been up to where we want)
So its all relative in a way

I just don't think any succesful team can carry a CM whose only job is producing two or three hurtful passes in 90 minutes, while failing at so many other elements of the job.

I know that his Juve career is the counter-argument but maybe his flaws are less of an issue in a less frantic style of football than the PL?

 

[NinjaFletch]

The fee is so off the hook enormous we don't need to get hung up on a breakdown in terms of marketability vs what he produces on the pitch.

Whichever way we spin this he's a player that was signed as someone who would consistently be our best player (or top three, at the very least) and one of the best players in the league. That's the expectation when any club pays that sort or money for a player, no matter how marketable they are.

He may still go on to tick all those boxes and, if so, great. He's a long way short of it so far, though. Which is a problem and hurting us in this league campaign.

What makes it depressing is that other elite clubs who broke the bank to sign very expensive players seem to have got a more rapid and more comprehensive return on their investment in the only way that fans should care about. Performances on the pitch. I mean, just look at what Juve did with the money we gave them for Pogba? Everyone laughed at the money they spent on a visibly overweight Gonzalo Higuain. 15 goals in 21 appearances later...

Exactly. This is what I was trying to get Rado to elaborate on. Even when you make all sorts of allowances for quite how high the fee was it still comes down to being an absolutely astronomical amount of money for a player who just isn't playing like someone worth that. Pexbo, and Rado, are both right that transfer fees aren't a zero sum game, but they don't exist in a vacuum and there's a huge gulf in between a world record fee and significantly cheaper option who could replicate something approaching what Pogba has given us so far (or, if you're being paticularly pessimistic about the money we've spent, provided us with more) thats an awful lot of money to spend on marketability...

 

[Cassidy]

I just don't think any succesful team can carry a CM whose only job is producing two or three hurtful passes in 90 minutes, while failing at so many other elements of the job.

I know that his Juve career is the counter-argument but maybe his flaws are less of an issue in a less frantic style of football than the PL?

I fully agree, hes not playing at the level we want but I don't doubt that he will get there. You can already see what he can become, the frustration lies with the fact he isn't there yet.

 

[Bepi]

So how much do you think he's actually worth?

Half your fee, I would say, this was the rationale among Juve fans last year. He is in the €45-50m bracket for age, potential and impact as a footballer, same bracket as Verratti, another good but overall not a foundational player yet.

Juve got a net plus of €72m for accounting purposes before taxes, the rest from your €105m going to Raiola (€25m) and other parties. Pogba may well fail at United and being sold again for very big monies to PSG (or the US or China or even Mars) in a couple of years, though, say after WC 2018... Raiola is a devil at this game

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I fully agree, hes not playing at the level we want but I don't doubt that he will get there. You can already see what he can become, the frustration lies with the fact he isn't there yet.

Definitely. There's been a handful of games (his debut and maybe 3 or 4 others?) where he's looked like the real deal. So that's something to cling to. I guess the point I'm making is that we're all pissed off with how our league campaign is going and it's reasonably to point out that the hit and miss contributions from our most expensive signing ever are a huge factor in this. It's not crazy to have expected more from him by now. Which is not the same thing as saying he will always be crap, or should be got rid of in the summer.

 

[Cassidy]

Half your fee, I would say, this was the rationale among Juve fans last year. He is in the €45-50m bracket for age, potential and impact as a footballer, same bracket as Verratti, another good but overall not a foundational player yet.

Juve got a net plus of €72m for accounting purposes before taxes, the rest from your €105m going to Raiola (€25m) and other parties. Pogba may well fail at United and being sold again for very big monies to PSG (or the US or China or even Mars) in a couple of years, though, say after WC 2018... Raiola is a devil at this game

In reality the market has moved. You couldn't even sign John Stones for that

 

[Rado_N]

You're the one thats been banging on about £90m, but how its not really £90m because of factors, hence why I was trying to get you to elaborate on what the 'real' fee you think we paid for Paul Pogba the footballer was. The fact you think its worthy of a lol to suggest that would indicate to me you didn't real engage with what I was saying, but conflated it with what others have said which would also explain why you keeping talking about social media.

Regardless of how the fee was calculated Paul Pogba is the most expensive footballer ever. It's undeniable that that creates a sense of expectation and I don't know why you're arguing against it.

You should try reading what's actually written, that'd be a good start.

 

[Stacks]

I just don't think any succesful team can carry a CM whose only job is producing two or three hurtful passes in 90 minutes, while failing at so many other elements of the job.

I know that his Juve career is the counter-argument but maybe his flaws are less of an issue in a less frantic style of football than the PL?

That is a fair point to be fair and one that I haven't considered. If you are going to carry someone for their hurtful passes or flashes of, they gotta be either the Pirlo of playmaking (from deep) or the Ronaldinho of playmaking (if further forward). Otherwise it doesn't seem worth it all. I wouldn't say he 'fails' at other elements of his job per se, but certainly seems fairly ordinary at them. Stats will say that he makes many tackles and passes though. This is why its always better to watch the matches rather than big players up through arbitrary stats on whoscored.com

 

[NinjaFletch]

You should try reading what's actually written, that'd be a good start.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

[Rado_N]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

No, not in any way, but if it makes you feel better and will stop you replying to me then cool.