In terms of available money maybe and in the PL environment for sure but the point is you might still buy exceptional players at €20m or less from the lesser leagues or Center-Eastern Europe, if able to scout them properly. I think the PL as a whole is a bit too insular for its own good when it comes to non-PL assessment and clubs just waste money without really knowing what they are buying. Gullible not, not doing proper diligence maybe.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 51
- Goals
- 9
- Assists
- 6
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
In terms of available money maybe and in the PL environment for sure but the point is you might still buy exceptional players at €20m or less from the lesser leagues or Center-Eastern Europe, if able to scout them properly. I think the PL as a whole is a bit too insular for its own good when it comes to non-PL assessment and clubs just waste money without really knowing what they are buying. Gullible not, not doing proper diligence maybe.
Seriously when a PL club is involved add some money, when they found out its United add some more.
However right now I will be surprised if a player emerges that has the level of talent, current level, and future potential that Pogba has for that sort of fee anywhere.
It could be heresy writing this here but Martial imho is a much better prospect than Pogba overall and for United, you paid £35m-to-57m which is fair. Reading many fans believing Rashford is better than Martial here is a mistery to me.
Pogba's most productive part of his game, at present, is his long-range passing which has created some wonderful chances for the team.
But what happens when we take on better teams and their midfield's close him down in an instant. What then? The rest of his game, as it stands, is pretty average.
He has a swaggering entitlement about him, which makes him less prone to the simple pass, the little details and the basic, intrinsic teamplay needed to be one of the very top players in the world.
Jose Mourinho needs to do some serious work on him this summer. I'll go as far as to say if it works it could be the difference between a successful United team in the future or an ordinary one.
But what happens when we take on better teams and their midfield's close him down in an instant. What then? The rest of his game, as it stands, is pretty average.
He has a swaggering entitlement about him, which makes him less prone to the simple pass, the little details and the basic, intrinsic teamplay needed to be one of the very top players in the world.
Jose Mourinho needs to do some serious work on him this summer. I'll go as far as to say if it works it could be the difference between a successful United team in the future or an ordinary one.
But one is way ahead of their development curve and so will cost more. Even if you believe Martial has the higher ceiling (which is debatable)
I always like this response on forums. No one forced you to engage in a discussion about marketability, nor defend the economics of the transfer, but you chose to. If you want to end the discussion then stop replying, don't passive aggressively try and take the moral high ground.
Anyway, we agree on the basic principle: Pogba was a very expensive player, and he is currently not playing very well. Anything beyond that is a matter of opinion and yours and mine differ, but neither of us believe he's a write off yet. Time will tell if the clubs calculations of Pogba's worth were borne in reality.
Well, no imho, you are just seeing that yourselves, week in week out. You lot have been made believing something not true by the sh*tstorm surrounding him and orchestrated by Raiola.
It's hard to be rational about Pogba right now seeing as his fecking atrocious performance against Liverpool was arguably the difference between a disappointing result and one of the very few high points we've had in the three crappy seasons since Fergie retired. They were in poor form and there for the taking. Pogba let himself and the team down so so badly. It wasn't a "not a £100m player performance" it was a "not a PL footballer" performance.
Can't bring myself to offer an unbiased opinion on him in recent weeks because he has been so disappointing.
Forget the price tag, the question is.. is he performing to the level we would expect of a centre mid for a title challenging side. Based on recent weeks no, he's been abysmal.
... but hey, he has a cool new celebration up his sleeve, a fresh new 'do' and thousands of Pog-followers on twitter and instagram.
So infuriating.
So infuriating.
As per my edit, that Liverpool performance wasn't even good enough for a side fighting against relegation.
You're telling me Martial is the same level of experience as Pogba and same development level?
He clearly is not, hes played 1 season in top flight football as a starter, only played a handful of games in UCL and isn't a regular international either. That no orchestration by Riola.
Whether he has a higher ceiling is a totally different issue, but lets not reinvent history, one is further ahead clearly.
It was a terrible performance, and he should have been hooked.
That is my worry with him. He has a huge range in terms of his performance level and context plays a huge part in the standard of his performances.. which means he is right now a very flaky player. In midfield and defence, you can't afford to have flaky players. He can't stand on his own two feet, literally as well as tactically.
It wasn't even relegation level.. it was literally school boy stuff. His head completely went. Right now the swagger has gone, games are passing him by and he just looks lethargic and clumsy as feck.
I am hoping in a more dynamic side next year and with added fitness, he can focus on improving on those weaknesses but for this season I have already written him off in terms of expecting consistency. I just hope people can analyse him objectively, he shouldn't get a free ride because he is Paul Pogba and he shouldn't get criticised just because of the price tag.
The problem we have is that we're threadbare in the position he plays, since Morgan left. If Mou drops him for our next game what does our midfield look like?
Agree with this. The best thing about his second spell at United is that he's clearly not going to use us like ADM did. He wants to become a top player and do it at United.
That said, I do think he should just bin the emoji/haircut/dance moves until he's cracked it in the PL. Whether it affects his game or not, it's just another stick for the media to beat him with and brings unnecessary pressure.
I'd honestly try Mata there, essentially playing as a #10.
Even at his worst he somehow manages to create 2-3 absolutely clear cut chances which are squandered away. Yeah he didn't have the best of games but his vision is unbelievable for someone so young. We should be winning games even where we play like dogshit simply because of his chances. If Ibra started putting away his chances we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.
He also takes shots from distance which make the opponent goalkeeper work. Something which none of our other players seem to be capable of doing. He's absolutely justified his price tag already. His team mates are letting him down. He could be right up there in the assist charts if we had slightly better finishing.
I simply don't get why some people are getting angry over the dancing videos. It's completely irrelevant to his performances.
He also takes shots from distance which make the opponent goalkeeper work. Something which none of our other players seem to be capable of doing. He's absolutely justified his price tag already. His team mates are letting him down. He could be right up there in the assist charts if we had slightly better finishing.
I simply don't get why some people are getting angry over the dancing videos. It's completely irrelevant to his performances.
Ok my point is do you see any maturity in Pogba's game, coming from such experience? He was at his best for Juve in 2015, when they made the CL final. But he was the same luxury player he is being now, never the main actor, too much too often a passenger. Then enters Raiola with all his bullsh*t and £££ promises... end of development.
However, I do not enjoy sticking the knife here, I subscribed this forum hoping to enjoy the PL, see United contend and come up on top, so will probably shut up for a while and come back at more convenient times.
Im not of the opinion his development as a player has ended at 23. Yes I think we overpaid but tbh I am not that fussed. Even at the level he is right now he is more productive that most CM in the league (even if he has the odd game where he goes missing)
Consistency and maturity will come with time.
Im not happy with how Jose has managed the squad tbh. That is Jose fault, he could have even recalled Pereira as creative CM backup but didnt'
Hmmm... Swings and roundabouts. I'm happy enough with Schneiderlin being given half a season to impress the manager. Once we gave up on him we've a tough decision to make. I think Pereira's long term career is best served by staying put. Dropping Pogba and playing him instead would be a hell of a call.
He couldn't perform any worse than Pogba did vs Liverpool, and I bet Schneiderlin wouldn't either.
Another example is Bastian, look how hes had to bring him back in as an option now. Had he done that from the start Carrick would be more fresh, but no... Jose Mr big balls!
Pogba is a good player but very over hyped he needs to learn how to play in a 2 with defensive midfielder next to him so we can can get an extra attacking player in the team in games against the weaker team maybe in the big matches we can play 3 in midfield.
Did you not watch the second half yesterday? As well as the other games where he has done exactly that?
Didn't Carrick and Herrera start in midfield as well last night and against Stoke didn't Fellaini start instead of Carrick i make that a 3 man midfield not 2 we should be playing 4-2-3-1 against the weaker team with Pogba in the 2. Yes in second half he did play in the 2 but sometimes matches are about how you start.
Why are you mentioning Stoke?
My point is he has shown he can actually perform in a 2, the myth about him not being able to perform in a 2 vs the weaker teams in the league is silly. Did you not watch his debut?
Many excuses are made when he had a poor game, fact is he is just an inconsistent performer. He can play in a 2 vs a weak side thats not his issue.
Yet there's a very strong case to be made for having played Carrick regularly from much earlier in the season than he did. All ifs buts and maybes, if you ask me. I have no problem with a new manager taking a season to optimise central midfield. It just so happens that ours was unusually dysfunctional, compounded by the unique set of challenges in getting the best out of Pog. All a bit of a head-feck tbf.
I'm saying that he should have played Carrick from the start of the season, and rotated him with Bastian.
Fwiw I don't even think he was that bad yesterday. If Mata scored and we won then this thread would not be filled with people writing Pogba off. People are so fickle but thats what football does to fans. We aren't dropping points because of Pogba, he is our most creative player imo. As others have said when he doesn't have a blinder or is slightly nullified by a team, he still produces chances. As simple as it sounds the whole team isn't performing. We need to be scoring goals early on.
At the start of the season, it was Schneiderlin who as considered the alternative to Carrick. BFS was out of the picture and only comes back into it now that Morgan has left. Again, this all seems reasonable to me.
Like I said, our midfield is a uniquely challenging cluster-feck. Schneiderlin was supposed to be the missing piece in our jigsaw but has been a crushing disappointment under two consecutive managers. Carrick is at an age where he should be peripheral but is absolutely critical instead. BFS is a legend but he's let himself get woefully out of shape and generally looks to see United as a lucrative and enjoyable side-project while he winds down his career. Fellaini is... Fellaini. Then we have the whole Pogba SNAFU.
Credit to Mourinho for having Hererra playing the best football of his United career because, without him, we'd be in a whole world of hurt!
I agree to the bold part in particular. Herrera seems to get stick from a fair few on here but I think he has been crucial for us on both the offensive and defensive end with his urgency and tenacity. He's been MOTM on multiple occasions this season for me and an absolutely indispensable part of the squad. He has a great ability to always seem to find a yard to pick out a pass, and tends to play the correct ball almost all of the time.
He's such an important player for us, and when he inevitably picks up an injury, he cannot be replaced by our current squad options. I think we should make either Saul or Koke a priority in the summer rather than Griezmann. I'd love to see a midfield with the tenacity of Herrera and Saul with Mata in front of them.
Very true that part.
At the season start though Carrick wasn't in the side at all, and the plan seemed to be to play Pogba next to Fellani. (Only God knows what Mourinho was thinking)
Schneiderlin for whatever reason didn't get a look in (maybe he wasn't up to it) can't blame Mourinho there.
Carrick only really came into the side around November from what I can remember. Bastian is unfit because he wasn't even allowed to train with the first team at one point. As much a clusterfeck as our midfield is, it hasn't been managed well, the Bastian situation being a prime example of something Jose chose to do which was totally unnecessary and only hurt us in the long run.
We have also overplayed Pogba in games where he just didn't need to play like (league cup games etc)
We're going in circles here but the "Bastian situation" was a decision made very early on that we didn't need him and should get rid (presumably following advice from people who've worked with him beforehand) The fact he seemed so unwilling to give up his cushy, extremely well-paid job was a problem for the new manager. But the two of them seem to have worked out their differences and he may have a part to play, after we lost a CM who was ahead of him in the pecking order half-way through the season. The whole thing is not unlike Toure at City (Schneiderlin = Gundogan) If that's the prime example of his mismanagement I don't think we have much to worry about.
Re resting Pogba, I thought that would help too. Although the argument loses weight considering we're all pissed off his performance immediately after Mou did what you suggested, in making him sit out a cup game to recharge his batteries.
Not sure how much difference a week's rest is going to make considering he hasn't had a preseason. Was likely to catch up with him sooner or later.
I'd like to see him drop deeper when in this sort of form. He's playing as a number 10 but offering us nothing going forward. Let Mata/Micki have a run as a number 10 or maybe try Martial/Rashford up front with Ibra behind one of them.
I'd like to see him drop deeper when in this sort of form. He's playing as a number 10 but offering us nothing going forward. Let Mata/Micki have a run as a number 10 or maybe try Martial/Rashford up front with Ibra behind one of them.
We aren't playing a vertical midfield, if thats what you are claiming. We have a CM pairing of Herrera and Carrick. The former is box to box and the latter anchors, yes. But Pogba is our number 10 and drops deep about as much as any other number 10.
It sucks that his finishing has been underwhelming but at the end of the day, scoring goals isn't his #1 task, that's for Zlatan/Rashford/Martial/Mata/Mkhitaryan/Rooney/Lingard/you get the point.
Pogba does well in creating chances.
Pogba does well in creating chances.
Well, we'll disagree then, cause Pogba doesn't play as a 10 in any way, in my book.
----------------DDG
Valencia--Jones--Rojo--LB
--------------Carrick
Valencia--Herrera
------------------Pogba
------Micky/Mata
Valencia------------Martial
--------------Zlatan
Is more how we have lined up, Valencia covers the right flank, all of it, Martial/Rashford/Rooney inverted on the left side.
Micky and Mata plays more like a 10 than on the rw, even though they drift out there once in a while to create space.
Pogba plays on the left side of our midfield, the most attacking of our 3 midfielders, in sort of an 8/playmaker role.
Pogba has only been playing as 10 a couple times, and it didn't work at all.
The times Pogba and Herrera have been together as a midfield 2, is when we are pushing for goals, or weaker opponent, and put on an attacker for Carrick.
Why did you quote me in here, when my post was made in the Griezmann thread?
Made me confused for a moment
Well, we'll disagree then, cause Pogba doesn't play as a 10 in any way, in my book.
----------------DDG
Valencia--Jones--Rojo--LB
--------------Carrick
Valencia--Herrera
------------------Pogba
------Micky/Mata
Valencia------------Martial
--------------Zlatan
Is more how we have lined up, Valencia covers the right flank, all of it, Martial/Rashford/Rooney inverted on the left side.
Micky and Mata plays more like a 10 than on the rw, even though they drift out there once in a while to create space.
Pogba plays on the left side of our midfield, the most attacking of our 3 midfielders, in sort of an 8/playmaker role.
Pogba has only been playing as 10 a couple times, and it didn't work at all.
The times Pogba and Herrera have been together as a midfield 2, is when we are pushing for goals, or weaker opponent, and put on an attacker for Carrick.
Why did you quote me in here, when my post was made in the Griezmann thread?
Made me confused for a moment
The players will certainly drift in position but their default positions are: Mkhitaryan/Mata on the right, Martial Left, Zlatan upfront and Pogba behind.
I quoted you here as I didn't want to derail the Griezamnn thread
The players will certainly drift in position but their default positions are: Mkhitaryan/Mata on the right, Martial Left, Zlatan upfront and Pogba behind.
I quoted you here as I didn't want to derail the Griezamnn thread
I'd say Pogba is more in front of Herrera and Carrick, than behind Zlatan... even though both are technically right.
We don't have anyone playing as a proper rw, Valencia covers it, and that is why Mata and Micky often are more central, and in front of Pogba/behind Zlatan.
Don't think the Griezmann thread would derail that much, since my reply was to those who said he and Pogba couldn't play together.
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