[red4ever 79]

I mean we are drawing these games anyway. It's not like we are winning. Drop him.

At home:
Miki Carrick Herrera Martial
Rashford Ibra

Away
Carrick
BFS Herrera
Miki Martial
Ibra

 

[Amar__]

What really pisses me off is how relaxed he is defensively. He was always like this at Juventus, but he actually gave his all in first few mmonths here and was actually very good defensively which surprised me, but these days he is totally disinterested in putting any effort to win the ball back, he is practically useless defensively apart from winning headers at times. Their fecking defender dribbled past him with the ball at least 3 times last night like he is fecking Messi, absolutely unnacceptable.

 

[Fracture90]

I'm pretty sure United are the only club in the world who can spend £90m on a player and have no idea how to get the best out of him or know whether they are world class or not.

If we're honest, its been a really poor bit of business by the club so far.

UTD paid for him, Mourinho asked for him but still unsure where to play him. Big difference.

what a shit game he literally offered nothing today. maybe he should stop changing his fecking hair every week and dont dance around like a twat. i dispise people like that. hope he gets his head out of his own arse and start to deliver again.

Delete this post you're ridiculing yourself.

Shall we pretend he didn't create those 3 chances with his long passes?

His finishing tho is really bad.

 

[togg]

I don't think we will get any consistency out of him this year. I'm sure Mourinho is scratching his head a bit about him. I've kind of given up on seeing him take games by the scruff of the neck when we are struggling this season. I was never convinced about him from the start because I just didn't feel he suited the Premier League, but I hoped i was wrong and still do, because I want to reserve any judgement on him until next season having then completed the 'takes a new player a year to fully settle in and adapt' idea.

Perhaps, if it doesn't change next season, Ferguson was fortuitously right about him!

 

[Festive Sandvich]

Had two fantastic balls

 

[NoLookPasser]

It is really not worth sacrificing an attacking midfielder just for the sake of accommodating Pogba in a 3-man midfield. His attacking output is mediocre and the likes of Mata or Mkhitaryan would produce better numbers than him if they are played in the no.10 position.

When your main striker is misfiring, midfielders have to contribute in terms of goals and Pogba just doesn't possess the composure to finish good chances. If you look at all the goals he has scored for us,he didn't have much time to think about them when he had those chances.

His best attribute is his long-range passing from deep. He has to improve both his positioning and work rate for the benefit of the team and learn how to play in a 2-man midfield.

 

[VanGaalEra]

The shit in this thread

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Pretty much all of our big chances last night came from his invention or by him directly. I don't know what some people expect from him, I really don't. He played well last night.

 

[OohAahMartial]

What really pisses me off is how relaxed he is defensively. He was always like this at Juventus, but he actually gave his all in first few mmonths here and was actually very good defensively which surprised me, but these days he is totally disinterested in putting any effort to win the ball back, he is practically useless defensively apart from winning headers at times. Their fecking defender dribbled past him with the ball at least 3 times last night like he is fecking Messi, absolutely unnacceptable.

Reminds me of Joyce's comments about him not tackling in the reserves. Seems he thinks the dirty work is below him. But every player in the midfield must have a defensive side to their game too.
This deficiency means that he restricts what formations can be played because we are basically carrying him. Whether it be needing to include Carrick to sweep up for him, or later on have a dilemma with Griezmann, he affects our tactical flexibility. For this reason I think he was an unwise purchase for an EPL team with its pressing, and also his horrendous shooting and mentality is a poor match for a side that struggles generally with these. But we are stuck with him. So he will need some really good coaching and discipline to make him do the dirty work to a respectable level, the finishing to a decent level (he can forget Balon d'or if he can't shoot reliably) and improve his decision making, selflessness, calmness amongst other mental qualities. These are all hard to acquire and will take years to improve, if he can at all. In the meantime we actually need a subbable alternative for him.

 

[Dave1812]

He is a good player but over hyped said at the time we should have let Real have him and taken Kross off there hands and then looked at trying to get Kante before Chelsea did you would have got them 2 for same price as you payed for Pogba. They would have made a great partnership Kross runs the game and Kante runs all over the place to get you the ball back.

 

[ElQuesoGrande]

UTD paid for him, Mourinho asked for him but still unsure where to play him. Big difference.



Delete this post you're ridiculing yourself.

Shall we pretend he didn't create those 3 chances with his long passes?

His finishing tho is really bad.

If all 90m gets you in central midfield is a few nice lofted balls we should've just stuck Rooney in midfield and put up with the reduction in hit rate. They've the same lack of attacking contribution but the upside with rooney is he would put in a tackle and actually win the ball every so often

 

[kouroux]

A stint on the bench might be the thing that wakes him cause his football is stinking right now.

 

[Rado_N]

Frankly Rado this marketability argument is one of the worst I've heard. You can tell me to deal with it and act like Pogba is akin to an F1 pay driver all you want, but I suspect if you offered this opinion to fans of any other club you'd be laughed at. I think it would be particularly amusing to Chelsea fans watching their team romp home to the title with a player signed for a third of what we paid for Pogba at the heart of their midfield that they were somehow missing out on some marketing masterstroke that they didn't splurge a world record fee on a midfielder who (with the best will in the world) isn't currently worth it. I'd rather we sign football players because they're good at football than because of their brand appeal.

Pogba is a football player bought to play football; the very fact we have to resort to some vague intangible accountancy to try and justify what we paid for what we got is itself an admittance that what he's doing where it counts isn't currently good enough?

And how much does it mitigate his performances? Knock £10m off the price? £20m, £30m? £40m? How marketable does he have to be to justify giving us comparatively less than, say, Alexis gives Arsenal?

Of course ultimately the numbers are currently irrelevant. We've bought a player who had a reputation as world class and paid what we thought he was worth for one reason: to improve our team here and now and in the future, and The issue is that he is failing to live up to that reputation, and he's struggling to make the expected improvements on the pitch. If you're not worried about him then bully for you, but the amount of goalposts you're having to shift to not worry about him does hint at the fact that maybe you expected more to start with too.

I can't be arsed breaking all that down but football is an industry whether you like it or not and the financial side of it is far more involved than you seem to want to accept. You obviously think marketability is an irrelevance but quite frankly you're wrong and there's not much I can do about that. If it was irrelevant we wouldn't still be drawing in the kind of money we are from adidas and Chevy etc etc etc etc. Marketing drives money, and it plays a role in transfer fees of a lot of players.

All that guff about talking to other fans etc and how much money should we knock off before his performance is acceptable is complete straw man stuff, I never said his performances lately have been acceptable, I've said a number of times he's been poor and/or quiet. The only point I've been arguing here is that the gnashing of teeth and moaning about his transfer fee in relation to the expectation of him is nonsensical. Well that and the social media bullshit as well.

I've no idea what that last bit means, I've not moved any goalposts at all. Bottom line is that I think he needs to be dropped for a while and maybe given a few weeks holiday like happened with Rooney a few years ago. He seems burned out and fatigued after having had minimal summer break and a shit load of minutes already this season. His transfer fee, haircuts, taste in clothes, dancing etc etc is all irrelevant.

 

[Fracture90]

If all 90m gets you in central midfield is a few nice lofted balls we should've just stuck Rooney in midfield and put up with the reduction in hit rate. They've the same lack of attacking contribution but the upside with rooney is he would put in a tackle and actually win the ball every so often

Ofc I'm not justifying his price, but that's the price we paid.

 

[Zoo]

Some crazy posts in here. He played quite well in the second half.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Pogba would be an infinitely better player if he just stoped dicking around so much.

He's a serial dicker arounder with the ball at his feet, it's feckin' annoying.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

If all 90m gets you in central midfield is a few nice lofted balls we should've just stuck Rooney in midfield and put up with the reduction in hit rate. They've the same lack of attacking contribution but the upside with rooney is he would put in a tackle and actually win the ball every so often

So you're saying Rooney is more useful in midfield than Pogba? Give me a break.

 

[Thisistheone]

Going through a rough patch right now, and really needs to work on his bloody finishing.

Such a talent though & overall it's been brilliant watching him play for us every week.

 

[kopviolator]

He is the future of this team and he will come good. At the moment though he is frustrating to watch. Attention he so much craves doesn't really help either.

 

[kouroux]

It is funny how he gets the ball and has to dribble or do some tricks even when there is no other players around him immediately while ignoring a quick pass that would have set us on.

When he does quick pass, they usually come off really good and dangerous. But, no, he has to just do his thing in the middle of the pitch.

I like the fact that players can't take the ball off of him easily. But, he really needs to grow up a bit and starts focusing on being productive atm since the team is not doing well to carry his little tricks.

He is on "showboating" mode all the time, like he constantly needs to prove he is good on the ball or that he's got skills. I think we've all gotten it now, he can start making things simpler now..

 

[ElQuesoGrande]

So you're saying Rooney is more useful in midfield than Pogba? Give me a break.

I'm saying they are roughly as useful. Pogbas lofted long balls are more accurate whilst Rooney is better at tackling/bothers to make tackles. Both add about the same to our game overall. List me things in the last few games that prove me to be wrong?

 

[NinjaFletch]

I can't be arsed breaking all that down but football is an industry whether you like it or not and the financial side of it is far more involved than you seem to want to accept. You obviously think marketability is an irrelevance but quite frankly you're wrong and there's not much I can do about that. If it was irrelevant we wouldn't still be drawing in the kind of money we are from adidas and Chevy etc etc etc etc. Marketing drives money, and it plays a role in transfer fees of a lot of players.

All that guff about talking to other fans etc and how much money should we knock off before his performance is acceptable is complete straw man stuff, I never said his performances lately have been acceptable, I've said a number of times he's been poor and/or quiet. The only point I've been arguing here is that the gnashing of teeth and moaning about his transfer fee in relation to the expectation of him is nonsensical. Well that and the social media bullshit as well.

I've no idea what that last bit means, I've not moved any goalposts at all. Bottom line is that I think he needs to be dropped for a while and maybe given a few weeks holiday like happened with Rooney a few years ago. He seems burned out and fatigued after having had minimal summer break and a shit load of minutes already this season. His transfer fee, haircuts, taste in clothes, dancing etc etc is all irrelevant.

You talk about strawman arguments and then revert to talking about haircuts and clothes as if I've mentioned them?!

No one's denying football's an industry all I'm saying is that you're fundamentally misrepresenting the relationship between marketing and football as some weird justification of the fee. We should be buying players because of their footballing ability, and we should be using our commercial arm to create the money to buy and play players.

You're arguing that the relationship is inversed here and that Pogba is a good signing for whatever we paid for him because of the money he may or may not bring in (and even then I think you're vastly overstating how valuable this is) in spite of the fact significantly cheaper players are key figures in our rivals achieving the aims that we supposedly have.

Which begs the question if you think his marketability makes it unfair to judge him as a £90m player which you clearly do then what should he be judged as? And, by your own admission, isn't he failing to live up to those expectations too?

But either way you can think it's woefully out of touch of me to judge a player on their footballing abilities but it's disingenuous to argue that some vague call to some intangible marketability is such a good argument that it excuses Pogba being a relative dissapointment so far.

 

[balaks]

Going through a rough patch right now, and really needs to work on his bloody finishing.

Such a talent though & overall it's been brilliant watching him play for us every week.

From what I have seen this 'rough patch' has lasted most of the season so far. The odd bright moment does not distract from what has been hugely underwhelming performances on the whole. I've no doubt he can improve and become a very good player for you lot but he has a lot of work to do to get there.

 

[Rado_N]

You talk about strawman arguments and then revert to talking about haircuts and clothes as if I've mentioned them?!

No one's denying football's an industry all I'm saying is that you're fundamentally misrepresenting the relationship between marketing and football as some weird justification of the fee. We should be buying players because of their footballing ability, and we should be using our commercial arm to create the money to buy and play players.

You're arguing that the relationship is inversed here and that Pogba is a good signing for whatever we paid for him because of the money he may or may not bring in (and even then I think you're vastly overstating how valuable this is) in spite of the fact significantly cheaper players are key figures in our rivals achieving the aims that we supposedly have.

Which begs the question if you think his marketability makes it unfair to judge him as a £90m player which you clearly do then what should he be judged as? And, by your own admission, isn't he failing to live up to those expectations too?

But either way you can think it's woefully out of touch of me to judge a player on their footballing abilities but it's disingenuous to argue that some vague call to some intangible marketability is such a good argument that it excuses Pogba being a relative dissapointment so far.

I've literally argued none of that.

I'm done with this, it's pointless.

 

[Stacks]

I hear the criticism and i have no defence for Pogba. Like i said a long time ago, Juventus didn't develop him as a midfielder. They haven't taught him how to play the game and apply himself.

When i look at him though, i see only minor tweaks to his game that will bring him to the top of the game. And I'm not talking about tweaks which are even a test of his talent, just pretty basic stuff which players generally learn naturally with maturity and experience.

He will be as good, if not better, than Paul Scholes if he is coached correctly. I just sincerely hope Mourinho tries to show him the error of his ways instead of wrapping him in cotton wool and enabling his immaturity to continue.

Disagree. Scholes for me did everything better on a technical basis e.g. passing shooting, touch (not dribbling) and also at a higher rate and level of consistency. remember when Scholes was 22, he smashed in 14 goals in 31 games playing behind the striker, many of them screamers. His shooting has always been less erratic than Pogbas. in terms of intelligence and maturity, a 22 years old Scholes is miles ahead of 24 year old Pogba. Scholes was also a lot harder/tougher too and up for the fight

 

[balaks]

Disagree. Scholes for me did everything better on a technical basis e.g. passing shooting, touch (not dribbling) and also at a higher rate and level of consistency. remember when Scholes was 22, he smashed in 14 goals in 31 games playing behind the striker, many of them screamers. His shooting has always been less erratic than Pogbas. in terms of intelligence and maturity, a 22 years old Scholes is miles ahead of 24 year old Pogba. Scholes was also a lot harder/tougher too and up for the fight

I'd agree with that Scholes was a much better player than Pogba is (at least the current Pogba) - maybe Pogba can improve and could come close to being in the same bracket as Scholes but he is nowhere near that level yet.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Saying Pogba will become better than Scholes is a huge disservice to the best midfielder of the Premier League era (alongside Keane & Viera)

 

[Pexbo]

Disagree. Scholes for me did everything better on a technical basis e.g. passing shooting, touch (not dribbling) and also at a higher rate and level of consistency. remember when Scholes was 22, he smashed in 14 goals in 31 games playing behind the striker, many of them screamers. His shooting has always been less erratic than Pogbas. in terms of intelligence and maturity, a 22 years old Scholes is miles ahead of 24 year old Pogba. Scholes was also a lot harder/tougher too and up for the fight

That's nonsense to be honest. Scholes had Keane and Butt providing the discipline and aggression behind him. Scholes never shyed away from anything but he had a very different role and very different responsibility to what Pogba has at 23 years old and was playing in a much more established team.

 

[balaks]

That's nonsense to be honest. Scholes had Keane and Butt providing the discipline and aggression behind him. Scholes never shyed away from anything but he had a very different role and very different responsibility to what Pogba has at 23 years old and was playing in a much more established team.

Not sure how you can say that is nonsense - it didn't take long watching Scholes to understand that he was a very intelligent player with top class technical ability - Pogba imo has yet to prove that he has anywhere near the same level of intelligence that Scholes had, he may be technically gifted but knowing when to do things and what to do in different situations is vitally important and this is where Scholes excelled. Pobga is not close to him right now.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

I'm saying they are roughly as useful. Pogbas lofted long balls are more accurate whilst Rooney is better at tackling/bothers to make tackles. Both add about the same to our game overall. List me things in the last few games that prove me to be wrong?

Really? I don't even need to reply to that. There is a reason Pogba is one of the best midfielders in Europe. He is better than Rooney at nearly every attribute so surely you don't want me to list every attribute, although I'd be more than happy to make you look foolish by doing that if you want me to.

 

[balaks]

Really? I don't even need to reply to that. There is a reason Pogba is one of the best midfielders in Europe. He is better than Rooney at nearly every attribute so surely you don't want me to list every attribute, although I'd be more than happy to make you look foolish by doing that if you want me to.

He is better than Rooney is now yeah but Rooney at 23? Not so sure about that.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I've literally argued none of that.

I'm done with this, it's pointless.

Lets remember that this was the post you're replying too:

If you don't think its worrying that the club have spent a world record fee on a player that not only hasn't been world class, but also hasn't substantially improved us then fine, but the 'unmitigated bollocks' is people that don't share that view.

I think you'd be lying though if you said that a little bit of you wasn't concerned about Pogba based on what we've seen so far.

Which then led you to proceed to lecture me and all of us about the economics of a player transfer to then conclude by saying that you think the excuse is that Pogba is 'burned out and fatigued'. I concluded virtually every post by saying 'You might be right to dismiss Pogba's poor performances so far, time will tell' or a variant thereof and then you proceeded to come back everytime to talk about marketability.

So I come back to the original point. You stated it was stupid that people were talking about the 'mythical concept of a £90m player' when talking about Pogba, but by your own admission in the last sentence he's struggling to live up to expectations. All I want you to talk about is what you think fair expectations are for him? Based on his reputation, and yes his transfer fee, his squad status, his wages, his prior performances even, I don't think its unfair to expect him to be world class, but you have some making huge allowances for him because he's young and learning as if he's an academy graduate getting his first run in the side. So which is it?

 

[ElQuesoGrande]

Really? I don't even need to reply to that. There is a reason Pogba is one of the best midfielders in Europe. He is better than Rooney at nearly every attribute so surely you don't want me to list every attribute, although I'd be more than happy to make you look foolish by doing that if you want me to.

Fine, from his last few games show me things that he has done (read: what he has ACTUALLY done) that Rooney doesn't, outside of a greater accuracy of long balls

 

[Pexbo]

Not sure how you can say that is nonsense - it didn't take long watching Scholes to understand that he was a very intelligent player with top class technical ability - Pogba imo has yet to prove that he has anywhere near the same level of intelligence that Scholes had, he may be technically gifted but knowing when to do things and what to do in different situations is vitally important and this is where Scholes excelled. Pobga is not close to him right now.

Scholes was great for that but you're overrating a 22 year old Scholes and under selling Pogba while he's in poor form. You look at his highlight reel (similar to the wistful memories of a 22 year old Scholes) for this season alone and you will see countless examples of his vision and reading of play.

 

[balaks]

Scholes was great for that but you're overrating a 22 year old Scholes and under selling Pogba while he's in poor form. You look at his highlight reel (similar to the wistful memories of a 22 year old Scholes) for this season alone and you will see countless examples of his vision and reading of play.

I'm not overrating Scholes, I think you may be underrating him though. Scholes was one of the finest midfielders of his generation. Pogba has shown flashes of great stuff but mostly he has been at best average and at worst abject. He is turning 24 in a matter of weeks. Now I'm not saying that I don't rate him because I do. I am saying however that for a player of his reputation he has been an almost total disappointment so far. I also find it bizarre that some people actually feel comfortable comparing him to a player like Scholes and appear to be unaware that them doing that only makes Pobga appear worse.

 

[SammyUnited_83]

He is shit at the moment and regardless of age I expected a lot more.

For someone that seemingly has power, he just doesn't seem to dominate games.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

He is better than Rooney is now yeah but Rooney at 23? Not so sure about that.

I didn't say anything about Rooney at 23 but i'd still rather have Pogba in central midfield than 23 year old Rooney in midfield. Rooney's best position was always as a striker. He got moved back as his touch worse and pace got slower.

 

[balaks]

I didn't say anything about Rooney at 23 but i'd still rather have Pogba in central midfield than 23 year old Rooney in midfield. Rooney's best position was always as a striker. He got moved back as his touch worse and pace got slower.

But you said Pogba was better at every attribute than Rooney so I had to assume you meant a 23 year old Rooney as to compare Pogba to an obviously aged and knackered Rooney would be an utterly pointless one to make. It would be like me saying Pogba is clearly better at every attribute than the ball boy. That may be true but it doesn't prove him to be a great player.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Fine, from his last few games show me things that he has done (read: what he has ACTUALLY done) that Rooney doesn't, outside of a greater accuracy of long balls

He has set up alot of chances from seemingly nothing (check the 2 over the top balls last night) so he is more creative and has a much better eye for a pass. Rooney tries 'hollywood' passes but those are just long floated balls to the side generally, not going forward. Pogba has a better first touch, more agile, better balance, better in the air, quicker.... I'll leave it that because I feel stupid even having to justify how Paul fecking Pogba is a better option in midfield than Wayne Rooney who has been finished for well over 18 months.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

But you said Pogba was better at every attribute than Rooney so I had to assume you meant a 23 year old Rooney as to compare Pogba to an obviously aged and knackered Rooney would be an utterly pointless one to make. It would be like me saying Pogba is clearly better at every attribute than the ball boy. That may be true but it doesn't prove him to be a great player.

I was replying to that guy who said instead of sigbing Pogba we should of just stuck Rooney in midfield which was a ridiculous claim. I didn't say Pogba was a 'great player', He can be, but isn't right now. He is still very good though.