[Ødegaard]

Or Xavi.

For the record, I really liked Xavi.
Did you not understand that we meant physique as well when we were talking about complete? All attributes and the physique to match.
Xavi had all the technique, vision and brains to control the midfield, a true maestro, but he was not a complete midfielder in the sense we're talking about.

 

[harms]

Thank you.

I don't know any midfielder who can do that.

 

[Sandikan]

It was a Swedish manager who put Scholes out wide. Under English international managers(Hoddle and Keegan) he played centrally. So that's false.

Pogba's ball skills aren't as good as Zidane or Iniesta so he has to balance that by using the advantages he has. Namely an ability to score goals.

If Pogba continues to get 10 or less he'll never be ranked with those two. He won't even be up there with Gerrard or Lampard.

It's not all about scoring goals though.

If we went just on goals, the likes of Defoe (7th in all time Premier league goals) would be considered one of the all time best Premier league strikers.
Noone in their right mind would consider him anywhere near so.

 

[Sandikan]

Why does that centre back think it's a clever idea to come to the half way line to mark someone, leaving a monumental gap for Ando to run into. Insane defending.

 

[K2K]

i don't think him being the best CM in the world is dependent on that, not that many CM's out here really racking up goals like that, sure it would be nice if he could add a few goals to his game, and his finishing isn't bad, i just feel he has been unlucky, nonetheless, the amount of chances he creates is ridiculous, and personally, if he does it consistently, which he has been, and throughout an extended period, he will be the best CM in the world regardless of his finishing. He's certainly really high up there already.

I think he needs more goals and assists to be the best player in the world and win the Balon d'or especially in this era of ridiculous goal tallies.

That should be his ambition. Not just being the best CM in the world.

 

[Stobzilla]

Look at all that space being attacked.

 

[Dobbs]

It's not all about scoring goals though.

If we went just on goals, the likes of Defoe (7th in all time Premier league goals) would be considered one of the all time best Premier league strikers.
Noone in their right mind would consider him anywhere near so.

Think youre being a bit harsh on Defoe but nobody is suggesting we judge purely on goals.

It's just that for Pogba to be ranked as a great he'll have to score plenty. He's that type of player. He's not going to be marvelled for his ability to control a game like Xavi or for his ball skills like Zidane.

Like others have said his strength is his complete game. A big part of that being goals.

 

[Santoryo]

It was a Swedish manager who put Scholes out wide. Under English international managers(Hoddle and Keegan) he played centrally. So that's false.

Pogba's ball skills aren't as good as Zidane or Iniesta so he has to balance that by using the advantages he has. Namely an ability to score goals.

If Pogba continues to get 10 or less he'll never be ranked with those two. He won't even be up there with Gerrard or Lampard.

A Swedish coach with the English media behind his back, how do you think that'll work out?

If there is one thing to learn about the English media is that they have the ability to pressure foreign managers to do things the way they want to see.

You have previously ruthless coaches like LVG failing to displace Rooney mostly due to the media pressure and backlash that would have ensued. Even Mou had to be strategic about his shafting of Rooney.

Lampard and Gerrard being more of media darlings compared to Scholes would have been an almost impossible task to displace one without the media spiralling things out of control.

And you're really underrating Pogba ball skills if you think he'd need goals to be rated highly.

Again this shows the mentality I'm talking about. Pogba came from Juventus already seen by many in the world as world class and that was because of his ball playing skills, not goals or stats but what he does with the ball.

Pogba is an extremely skillful player with that oomph in his playing style which is attractive to the eye, things you'd see in the likes of Iniesta or Zidane styles. Just beautiful to watch.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Look at all that space being attacked.

Pure attacking the space porn.

 

[Dobbs]

A Swedish coach with the English media behind his back, how do you think that'll work out?

If there is one thing to learn about the English media is that they have the ability to pressure foreign managers to do things the way they want to see.

You have previously ruthless coaches like LVG failing to displace Rooney mostly due to the media pressure and backlash that would have ensued. Even Mou had to be strategic about his shafting of Rooney.

Lampard and Gerrard being more of media darlings compared to Scholes would have been an almost impossible task to displace one without the media spiralling things out of control.

And you're really underrating Pogba ball skills if you think he'd need goals to be rated highly.

Again this shows the mentality I'm talking about. Pogba came from Juventus already seen by many in the world as world class and that was because of his ball playing skills, not goals or stats but what he does with the ball.

Pogba is an extremely skillful player with that oomph in his playing style which is attractive to the eye, things you'd see in the likes of Iniesta or Zidane styles. Just beautiful to watch.

Well you can run conspiracy theories about media pressure but in the end it was a foreign manager who played him out wide. The English managers played him centrally. Just like his club did. Almost everybody in the English press and footballing public acknowledges it was a mistake.

I never said Pogba isn't or won't be highly rated so easy on the mentality stuff. He's rightly regarded as a top player.

He just won't be up there with Zidane or Iniesta unless he scores more. The rest of his game isn't at their level.

 

[Santoryo]

Well you can run conspiracy theories about media pressure but in the end it was a foreign manager who played him out wide. The English managers played him centrally. Just like his club did. Almost everybody in the English press and footballing public acknowledges it was a mistake.

I never said Pogba isn't or won't be highly rated so easy on the mentality stuff.

He just won't be up there with Zidane or Iniesta unless he scores more. The rest of his game isn't at their level.

Well that's were I simply disagree. Pogba is a ballon d'or talent and if he ever fulfill his full potential he's reaching those height no doubt in my mind.

Zidane himself was actually a pretty late bloomer. In fact most midfielders peak later in their career. Pogba is only 23 and already one of the best midfielders in the world and the best young midfielder in the world. Not to mention he's already achieved loads.

 

[gaucho_10]

Midfielders playing in a three get off too lightly these days. With less defensive responsibility and only one striker being on the pitch they sold be hitting double figures(in the league).

lol

 

[podurban2]

Midfielders playing in a three get off too lightly these days. With less defensive responsibility and only one striker being on the pitch they sold be hitting double figures(in the league).

Tell that to Xavi and Iniesta. Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[pseudo_canadian]

He's such an immense, robust footballer in so many aspects.

Crazy that he's back at United. I had never imagined that we could get him back. And he's showing great passion as well.

Happy days

 

[pseudo_canadian]

Look at all that space being attacked.

Such a great thread

 

[harms]

Look at all that space being attacked.

Micky - Pogba - Herrera, attacking the space ft. 2?

 

[Dobbs]

lol

If Roy Keane can hit double figures for the season an attacking midfielder playing in a three should also. Especially if he's ranked as world class.

Tell that to Xavi and Iniesta. Where do you come up with this stuff?

Funny those arguing the contrary always go for Iniesta and Xavi? I'm still never sure what point it's making either.

Iniesta should have scored more. It doesn't matter in the end because he has Messi and Co next to him.

Now imagine he isn't playing for the greatest team in history. Put him in this current United team. I don't care how good he is on the ball, an attacking midfielder in a three should be getting more than three or four. Especially when they're considered world class.

 

[sullydnl]

Imagine watching Iniesta play and thinking "he should be doing more".

 

[Dobbs]

Imagine watching Iniesta play and thinking "he should be doing more".

I think he should at least match Mark Nobles goal output. Do you think I'm setting the bar too high?

 

[Santoryo]

If Roy Keane can hit double figures for the season an attacking midfielder playing in a three should also. Especially if he's ranked as world class.



Funny those arguing the contrary always go for Iniesta and Xavi? I'm still never sure what point it's making either.

Iniesta should have scored more. It doesn't matter in the end because he has Messi and Co next to him.

Now imagine he isn't playing for the greatest team in history. Put him in this current United team. I don't care how good he is on the ball, an attacking midfielder in a three should be getting more than three or four. Especially when they're considered world class.

Ok let's just pretend Xavi or Iniesta don't exist, now start naming all those continental top top class midfielder who regularly smash double digits goals.

The very best midfielders in the world are practically not known for their goalscoring prowess as we speak with the likes of Modric, Kroos etc and people generally don't give even the tiniest of damn about their goal return.

This persistence with goals you're on about is just serving to highlight my point. It's only in this league you see people being obsessed with goals from midfielders but everywhere else in the world people are just content with their midfielders being maestros and delivering pure art form with the ball, not goals and stats.

This is why someone like Glaston or dippers can come here and try to make argument about your Allis and Hendersons over Pogba using stats when in reality the gulf in quality is ridiculously large.

 

[sullydnl]

I think he should at least match Mark Nobles goal output. Do you think I'm setting the bar too high?

I don't think it matters whether a player like Iniesta scores a lot of goals as he is in fact an amazing player regardless. If you think players like that have to score goals then you're a very fussy thinker with an inflexible view of football.

 

[harms]

It's strange to compare the likes of Iniesta to Pogba to Toure and to Keane. Not saying anything about their quality, but there are different ways to be a successful, or even a world class midfielder. Some involve scoring great amount of goals, some involve orchestrating the game, some involve incredible defensive output... It's not like you can say who was better out of Matthäus, Rijkaard and Xavi, for example.

Pogba's ability to score lots of goals will be just one of the components of what will, hopefully, make him a great midfielder. He doesn't need to control the game the game on a level of Scholes or Pirlo (Xavi excluded as I don't want another discussion about player quality, only about their style) if he adds more physical presence and goals, for example. Like Iniesta doesn't really need to score goals (until he does, but then he is surprisingly prolific) to be one of the best midfielders in history - it doesn't make the ability to score goals useless for any other midfielder.

 

[Rado_N]

I mentioned this is another thread but according to a city fan I got stuck talking with before Christmas, Pogba "just isn't a footballer".

He's pretty good for someone who isn't a footballer.

 

[Rozay]

I think he should at least match Mark Nobles goal output. Do you think I'm setting the bar too high?

If he took as many penalties as Mark Noble he certainly would.

He's a far greater goal threat from open play, and for all this debate about how many he should be scoring, it's still only December. He'll probably et double figures this season.

 

[podurban2]

If he took as many penalties as Mark Noble he certainly would.

He's a far greater goal threat from open play, and for all this debate about how many he should be scoring, it's still only December. He'll probably et double figures this season.

He's not even talking about Pogba, he is saying Iniesta should match Mark fecking Noble's goal count.

 

[Santoryo]

He's not even talking about Pogba, he is saying Iniesta should match Mark fecking Noble's goal count.

 

[Dobbs]

Ok let's just pretend Xavi or Iniesta don't exist, now start naming all those continental top top class midfielder who regularly smash double digits goals.

The very best midfielders in the world are practically not known for their goalscoring prowess as we speak with the likes of Modric, Kroos etc and people generally don't give even the tiniest of damn about their goal return.

This persistence with goals you're on about is just serving to highlight my point. It's only in this league you see people being obsessed with goals from midfielders but everywhere else in the world people are just content with their midfielders being maestros and delivering pure art form with the ball, not goals and stats.

This is why someone like Glaston or dippers can come here and try to make argument about your Allis and Hendersons over Pogba using stats when in reality the gulf in quality is ridiculously large.

Everything you write seems to have an anti English slant.

An Englishman didn't play Scholes on the left. It wasn't the English who voted Lampard. as the second best player in the world. The English haven't decided Alli is better than Pogba.

I've already said it's the attacking midfielders of the three who should be weighing in with a good amount of goals. I obviously wouldn't expect it of Carrick for instance or his equivalents.

I don't think it matters whether a player like Iniesta scores a lot of goals as he is in fact an amazing player regardless. If you think players like that have to score goals then you're a very fussy thinker with an inflexible view of football.

He is an amazing player. It's weird I have to say it but this is the Caf. I just think he should score more than 2 or 3 a season given his talent and the team he plays for. As ever posters overreact(not yourself) and turn that into me saying he's average or something. As I said earlier it doesn't really matter because he's surrounded by goalscorers. If he was in this current United team I think you'd want more goals from him.

 

[JPRouve]

For the record, I really liked Xavi.
Did you not understand that we meant physique as well when we were talking about complete? All attributes and the physique to match.
Xavi had all the technique, vision and brains to control the midfield, a true maestro, but he was not a complete midfielder in the sense we're talking about.

Fair enough, I mentioned him because of his ability to play 6, 10 and 8 at a very high level which the others aren't able to do, he wasn't a physical beast though.

 

[Dobbs]

He's not even talking about Pogba, he is saying Iniesta should match Mark fecking Noble's goal count.

This is very weird. Is it really that odd to say a player of Iniesta's ability, playing for the team he does, should score 7 or more a season? Is it laughable?

It's even stranger when you consider most United fans, plenty on this forum, have bemoaned the lack of goals in our team. Everyone bar Zlatan has come in for criticism for not scoring enough. Yet you're hear saying world class attacking midfielder don't have to score goals.

I've had this discussion before though because whenever somebody argues midfielders have zero goalscoring responsibility they always reference Iniesta.

 

[JPRouve]

This is very weird. Is it really that odd to say a player of Iniesta's ability, playing for the team he does, should score 7 or more a season? Is it laughable?

It's even stranger when you consider most United fans, plenty on this forum, have bemoaned the lack of goals in our team. Everyone bar Zlatan has come in for criticism for not scoring enough. Yet you're hear saying world class attacking midfielder don't have to score goals.

I've had this discussion before though because whenever somebody argues midfielders have zero goalscoring responsibility they always reference Iniesta.

Iniesta is a particular case because he is always involved in the goals build up, that's why he is rarely at their conclusion.

 

[Dobbs]

Iniesta is a particular case because he is always involved in the goals build up, that's why he is rarely at their conclusion.

Possibly, honestly I don't really care about Iniesta. He always gets brought up in this kind of discussion. Again somebody else brought him up in this case.

We've all complained that outside of Ibra our squad isn't doing their bit in terms of getting goals. It then seems contradictory to say our attacking midfielder shouldn't share the burden. I doubt Pogba himself would.

 

[AXVnee7]

He doesn't need to score more goals necessarily. What he needs to do is to be the deciding factor in winning us games, whether that's against the likes of West Brom and Hull to your Barcas and Madrids.

He needs to pop up with that killer ball for an assist, or unstoppable strike. That's what I expect, a bit of magic to decide the games where there are fine margins. Even if it means bossing the midfield and 'not contributing statistically', he'll be doing good for me.

 

[calodo2003]

Attacked the space well.

 

[JPRouve]

Possibly, honestly I don't really care about Iniesta. He always gets brought up in this kind of discussion. Again somebody else brought him up in this case.

We've all complained that outside of Ibra our squad isn't doing their bit in terms of getting goals. It then seems contradictory to say our attacking midfielder shouldn't share the burden. I doubt Pogba himself would.

In our current set up the lacking goals are supposed to come from the wide players not Pogba who is currently used as a CM. So the problem comes from Mata, Lingard, Martial and Mkhitaryan who have scored 6 goals between them. You could eventually add Rashford and Rooney which brings the total to 10 goals for 6 players.

 

[Dobbs]

In our current set up the lacking goals are supposed to come from the wide players not Pogba who is currently used as a CM. So the problem comes from Mata, Lingard, Martial and Mkhitaryan who have scored 6 goals between them. You could eventually add Rashford and Rooney which brings the total to 10 goals for 6 players.

Why does Pogba keep getting into goalscoring positions and shooting if he and Mourinho have decided he doesn't need to contribute goals?

 

[steve88]

Why does Pogba keep getting into goalscoring positions and shooting if he and Mourinho have decided he doesn't need to contribute goals?

Mourinho wants him to score but his game is not just about goals it's about dominating and create attacks/defending etc

 

[Santoryo]

Everything you write seems to have an anti English slant.

An Englishman didn't play Scholes on the left. It wasn't the English who voted Lampard. as the second best player in the world. The English haven't decided Alli is better than Pogba.

I've already said it's the attacking midfielders of the three who should be weighing in with a good amount of goals. I obviously wouldn't expect it of Carrick for instance or his equivalents.



He is an amazing player. It's weird I have to say it but this is the Caf. I just think he should score more than 2 or 3 a season given his talent and the team he plays for. As ever posters overreact(not yourself) and turn that into me saying he's average or something. As I said earlier it doesn't really matter because he's surrounded by goalscorers. If he was in this current United team I think you'd want more goals from him.

Jesus Christ.

There is nothing anti English or whatever conspiracy you're trying to come up with. Are you serious right now with your "anti English" bit you just wrote?

I'm stating a fact which is, it's here in the PL that its viewers and media even care that much about goals from midfielders and love putting emphasise on that. Case in point you, used to the PL and its media narratives which has drilled into you this idea that to be a top class midfielder one needs goals.

Also people have been repeatedly trying to tell you that midfielders don't necessarily need goals or stats to be world class. And the same people been telling you why, but it seems you're having none of that.

You should also stop pretending that Iniesta is a special and isolated case and laugh off arguments bringing him up as example. Beside him it's quite natural and normal for midfielders to not have great numbers goal wise.

Midfielders who register double digits aren't the norm and rare cases like Lampard. And due to his goalscoring prowess it elevated him and compensated from what he lacked.

But most midfielders in the world don't score but show their strengths with what they do with the ball. Iniesta isn't the only one who is a maestro of the ball with low numbers when it comes to scoring, most world class and top midfielders throughout history of football and the greatest ones at that are the same, not your goalscoring monsters.

By the way people disagreeing with your assessment and takes on things doesn't mean they're mad or overreacting. This is a bloody forum, you expect people to engage in various debate while weighting on their opinions. Nothing how you want to describe those who disagree with you.

 

[Infordin]

The only area where he lacks (IMO) is his positioning when the opposing team is in possession. Otherwise he is a complete midfielder, what a player all around.

I would swap him for any Barcelona player apart from Messi, Neymar or Busquets.

 

[JPRouve]

Why does Pogba keep getting into goalscoring positions and shooting if he and Mourinho have decided he doesn't need to contribute goals?

Who said that he wasn't allowed to try to score? I mean, Rojo tries to score too but you are not going to judge him on that.

 

[VanGaalEra]

Caf rating 6.2

My rating 7.2