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2016-17 Performances


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6.3 Season Average Rating
Appearances
51
Goals
9
Assists
6
Yellow cards
10
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Ok let's just pretend Xavi or Iniesta don't exist, now start naming all those continental top top class midfielder who regularly smash double digits goals.

Just because there's a dearth in the current climate with regards to productive, multi-functional midfielders, it doesn't make it an accepted standard rather than something that should pass with the historical norms being re-established once the next batch of generational midfielders make themselves known. Iniesta and Xavi are outliers who are both part of one unique, Tiki-Taka system, the likes of which stands independent of historical scrutiny - they aren't the standard-measure for what is expected of a productive midfield and it's only because their ball-retention and recycling was so high that they did not face the criticisms that their low scoring rates would have otherwise generated.

The very best midfielders in the world are practically not known for their goalscoring prowess as we speak with the likes of Modric, Kroos etc and people generally don't give even the tiniest of damn about their goal return.
Modric and Kroos, also, are in a team whose sole function is to supply Ronaldo. It lets them off the hook and provides yet another outlier as such extreme goal-scoring freaks don't come along often enough to facillitate such a low return from central midfield.

Frankly, you remove the two freakish Spanish sides with their glitched matrix players (Messi with Saurez and Neymar supporting, or Ronaldo with his band of merry men), and nothing has really changed per goal-scoring requirement/expectation through midfield in the world game. The other superpower, Bayern, have goals through their midfield core

Zidane did not get a free ride of it in regard to goal-scoring, either, as he was expected to do more in that sense than he did. It's not supposed to be a case of one or the other as the great midfielders of the past have made it clear you can be both a maestro and comparatively prolific scorer from midfield.

Even Michael Laudrup, a maestro's maestro, if there ever was one, was scrutinised for his scoring rate. Why? Because he was being compared to Platini, Zico, Maradona, Gullit who could do what he did and be more prolific as goalscorers on top of that.



This persistence with goals you're on about is just serving to highlight my point. It's only in this league you see people being obsessed with goals from midfielders but everywhere else in the world people are just content with their midfielders being maestros and delivering pure art form with the ball, not goals and stats.

This is why someone like Glaston or dippers can come here and try to make argument about your Allis and Hendersons over Pogba using stats when in reality the gulf in quality is ridiculously large.


I don't see where you're coming from with regard to England being the only place that looks to midfielders for goals, or that wants that in addition to a high standard of midfield play? The German's are renowned for their productivity through midfield and when they produce the next in line who can succeed someone like Ballack, he'll be raved about, I'm sure.

Vidal's star shot through the roof all over the world the moment he became that goal-scoring monster he was until he did his knee in. Kaka' was raved about and won WPOTY because of his exploits from midfield, same goes for Ronaldinho.... the current reality is that successors for these players haven't been found, so that lull and acceptance you've suggested is a consensus has no choice but to be status quo, for now. The standards for true excellence don't leave the collective consciousness, but it serves little point to bemoan the lack of greatness intertwined with goal-scoring ability we are seeing from midfield at the moment
It's strange to compare the likes of Iniesta to Pogba to Toure and to Keane. Not saying anything about their quality, but there are different ways to be a successful, or even a world class midfielder. Some involve scoring great amount of goals, some involve orchestrating the game, some involve incredible defensive output... It's not like you can say who was better out of Matthäus, Rijkaard and Xavi, for example.

Pogba's ability to score lots of goals will be just one of the components of what will, hopefully, make him a great midfielder. He doesn't need to control the game the game on a level of Scholes or Pirlo (Xavi excluded as I don't want another discussion about player quality, only about their style) if he adds more physical presence and goals, for example. Like Iniesta doesn't really need to score goals (until he does, but then he is surprisingly prolific) to be one of the best midfielders in history - it doesn't make the ability to score goals useless for any other midfielder.
Is this a narrative on the caf? Because it's the third time I've seen this written in the space of four days. I don't know where it's come from (if there's a link to the larger discussion, could you post it?) but as individuals, not beholden to a system of play or complementary team-mates the distinctions and hierachy are clear.
Jesus Christ.

There is nothing anti English or whatever conspiracy you're trying to come up with. Are you serious right now with your "anti English" bit you just wrote?

I'm stating a fact which is, it's here in the PL that its viewers and media even care that much about goals from midfielders and love putting emphasise on that. Case in point you, used to the PL and its media narratives which has drilled into you this idea that to be a top class midfielder one needs goals.
How is it a 'fact'? Goalscorers from midfield have been revered throughout the history of the game in all countries, not just England. If that's not something you're disputing then apologies for missing the point.
Also people have been repeatedly trying to tell you that midfielders don't necessarily need goals or stats to be world class. And the same people been telling you why, but it seems you're having none of that.
That depends on what position they are playing in midfield, because for any kind of attacking, or play-making midfielder, goal-involvement has been a pre-requisite of the job since forever. Deeper players don't have the same expectation, which is why an Iniesta is going to be more heavily scrutinised than a Xavi for not scoring or assisting on a game-by-game basis.

You should also stop pretending that Iniesta is a special and isolated case and laugh off arguments bringing him up as example. Beside him it's quite natural and normal for midfielders to not have great numbers goal wise.
After Iniesta, there's Rui Costa that comes to mind for not being impressive in terms of goal output but revered for his passing and also Valderrama. How many more, at this kind of level, who played so far forward, are out there with that kind of poor goal-scoring output? That's bearing in mind that Iniesta has 2 shy of half the tally of Rui Costa at club level to date. He seems to be a very special case because even those I was going to pair him with who off the top of my head weren't particularly prolific scorers (Zidane, Rivera, Valderrama, Schuster, Luis Suarez (Spanish) etc) have double, triple or quadruple his 37 league goals over their own league club careers.
Midfielders who register double digits aren't the norm and rare cases like Lampard. And due to his goalscoring prowess it elevated him and compensated from what he lacked.
Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Ronaldinho, Ballack, Kaka', Deco (before he catered to Ronaldinho and modified his own game), Fabregas, Yaya, Gary Speed, Le Tissier, Hamsik, Sneijder, Cocu (when played as an AM), Mendieta, Vidal, Van der Vaart. If you're talking about Lampard's time, then most of these players apply, so how is it rare? I know there's loads more that could be added to that, too, as I've just put down what came to mind. It's been an expected standard for the position that has only slumped of late because the talent hasn't been there to keep the status quo. Someone like Pogba should be comfortably hitting 10+ in the league over a full campaign once he's fully settled
But most midfielders in the world don't score but show their strengths with what they do with the ball. Iniesta isn't the only one who is a maestro of the ball with low numbers when it comes to scoring, most world class and top midfielders throughout history of football and the greatest ones at that are the same, not your goalscoring monsters.
It's really not true. Most maestro's are the opposite. You'll struggle to find players as regarded as Iniesta, playing as far forward as Iniesta, who have such a low goal-scoring output as Iniesta. His numbers are extremely low for an attacking midfielder - the lowest I can think of for all-time regarded AM, actually.
 
Well, the important thing is we have seen steady improvement in his game. Sure, (maybe) his performances don't warrant the transfer fees yet but for me, I am happy that the team is improving, his own performances have been improving and the results have shown that with winning streaks.

Pogba and the team has potential to go further and do better. Let's hope the team and other players like Martial and Rashford continue their good work and improve their own form as well. Imagine in form Martial and Mhkirtarayan, along with Zlatan and Pogba. Hhhhnnnnnggggghhhh!
 
Is this a narrative on the caf? Because it's the third time I've seen this written in the space of four days. I don't know where it's come from (if there's a link to the larger discussion, could you post it?) but as individuals, not beholden to a system of play or complementary team-mates the distinctions and hierachy are clear.
Not sure, but I would be interested to see that hierarchy
 

Love it :drool: Top class players tend to do that, if they just relax and enjoy playing the game, they'll naturally show why they're world beaters. I think we're in for a treat in the second half of the season and much more. I'm calling it, he'll reach double-digit goals this season at the very least (bold prediction I know).
 
Love it :drool: Top class players tend to do that, if they just relax and enjoy playing the game, they'll naturally show why they're world beaters. I think we're in for a treat in the second half of the season and much more. I'm calling it, he'll reach double-digit goals this season at the very least (bold prediction I know).

And what, triple digits at the most?
 
Almost surreal that he plays for us. This is the sort of player you have a depressed cry wank over watching them playing for Real, Barca, Bayern and think "if only".

This really sums it up. He's just the type of player that we wouldn't get earlier. Coveted by Real and Barcelona, but United got him :drool:
 
Clarence Seedorf
No, not really. Seedorf wasn't anywhere near as good defensively as pogba. Seedorf was a more physical version of iniesta(but overall an inferior player than iniesta). Pogba's not makelele, but he's still a good defensive player.
 
No, not really. Seedorf wasn't anywhere near as good defensively as pogba. Seedorf was a more physical version of iniesta(but overall an inferior player than iniesta). Pogba's not makelele, but he's still a good defensive player.
You are describing the Seedorf of Milan. At Ajax he frequently played as a box-to-box midfielder and his workrate was very good. LvG's Ajax team of 1995 (which won the CL) had no natural fullbacks. The defensive workrate of both Seedorf and Davids was absolutely necessary in order for the system to click.
 
TWITTER POSTS

I also felt that when Pogba arrived, it was all dabs, haircuts and new boots. Now he's back to his normal haircut, and is putting everything down on the pitch instead of being a walking billboard for advertisement. I think also he noticed he was getting some flack in social media for the aforementioned reasons when he wasn't exactly lighting the place up. (I think he's been OK to good since his arrival, only now really unleashing himself)
 
You are describing the Seedorf of Milan. At Ajax he frequently played as a box-to-box midfielder and his workrate was very good. LvG's Ajax team of 1995 (which won the CL) had no natural fullbacks. The defensive workrate of both Seedorf and Davids was absolutely necessary in order for the system to click.
Davids. You mean Davids. Davids was a one man midfield. Run for everybody else
 
No, not really. Seedorf wasn't anywhere near as good defensively as pogba. Seedorf was a more physical version of iniesta(but overall an inferior player than iniesta). Pogba's not makelele, but he's still a good defensive player.

Yeah, Ajax Seedorf is a pretty good comparison, he was very all-round. After all, Pogba has a defensive game but he couldn't pass as an actual defensive midfielder.

Another question would be who was the last midfielder as complete as Pogba at United. Only one answer to that.
 
Yeah, Ajax Seedorf is a pretty good comparison, he was very all-round. After all, Pogba has a defensive game but he couldn't pass as an actual defensive midfielder.

Another question would be who was the last midfielder as complete as Pogba at United. Only one answer to that.

Rafael and Park were more complete. I'd like to see Pogba prove he can play right back like our Rafa did!
 
Rafael and Park were more complete. I'd like to see Pogba prove he can play right back like our Rafa did!

Years from now when he gets a testimonial with us, I'd like us to get Park and Rafael back to play in the opposition midfield and Pogba in ours and settle the 'who did it better?' question once and for all.
 
How the hell did Rafael,Park and even Gibson got start ahead of Pogba will be world's biggest mystery.Even at that time his talent was there to see.
 
Yeah, Ajax Seedorf is a pretty good comparison, he was very all-round. After all, Pogba has a defensive game but he couldn't pass as an actual defensive midfielder.

Another question would be who was the last midfielder as complete as Pogba at United. Only one answer to that.

Keane?
 
Man Utd 2:1 Middlesbrough
Hit the woodwork 5 times this season now, second only to de Bruyne (6).
 
Imagine if Fellaini had killed as many attacks as Pogba has so far today. He'd be getting absolutely slaughtered.
 
Play to deep because of Fellaini and Herrera, we see now the Pogba of the Euro :mad::mad:
 
Another superb performance. Hard to believe that there's still people who think he's not doing enough.
 
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