Paris terror attacks on Friday 13th

NoLogo said:
So what's the solution then? Bomb the shit out of some middle eastern countries?
Click to expand...

Retaliate, invade and neutralize in the same way the much criticized Russia is doing to great effect.

Eyepopper said:
To be fair there would be a hell of a lot of criticism if there was no comment from any political leaders.

What would you like to see them doing in the first 24 hours after an attack like this?

Also do you think what you see on the news is the full extent of what will actually be happening right now between these countries?
Click to expand...

Solutions? There are many and most of them require very limited violence.

For a start, close our borders. Stop the idea of integrating illegal immigrants and instead send them back to their countries. Stop all this crap about multiculturalism that Merkel is trying to feed to everyone and stop the bullshit.

Many have predicted and talked about such a situation developing in the past but we were called paranoid and racist. I don't hate, I just fear my safety. Am I racist just because I fear that if things continue the way they're doing, I won't feel safe in my own home?
 
rcoobc said:
I see what you are saying and I understand what you mean, but ISIS didn't try to hurt France militarily yesterday.
Click to expand...

Thats the point. IS cant hurt Western powers militarily, so they have to do this.

They want to scare France into leaving the middle east. They cant do that be taking on the French/US/British armies, so they try to wreak havoc in civilian Paris.

Concept being, they scare the civilian population into forcing the Government to leave the middle east, as the public supposedly control the government in a Democracy.
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
This immigration thing is ridiculous too. If IS want to get into Europe they will. It doesn't matter if the "borders" are closed.

The US, supposed biggest and baddest country there is, cant keep millions of Mexican's from crossing its borders every year, what the hell would Europe do with a monumental amount of land border to cover, aswell an even bigger amount of coastline.

Two-bit wannabe mafia's all over the world smuggle masses of sex-slaves all over Europe and the US, why wouldn't IS be able to.

Its stupid, utterly stupid.
Click to expand...
Internal and external borders would help with the traffic of weapons though. And a harder time getting weapons may havr caused these terror cells to come on the radar when trying to purchase them.

I think it's time to ressurect European borders. Maybe permanently.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Of course they wouldn't stop, the attacks would get worse. There wasn't much Western activity in the middle-east at the time of the 9/11 attacks, and they were the most deadly example of this kind of thing.
Click to expand...
The presence of US troops in Saudi-Arabia triggered the hate towards the West in the mid-late 90's I think?
 
This attack has bummed me out like nothing else. I'm feeling really down thinking about all the innocent lives lost :(

One of the things that makes this so bad is the inherent nihilism in the attackers' motives. At least with 9/11, Osama Bin Laden was trying to make wider point about American neo-imperialism. He attacked the US's symbols of government (The White House), military (The Pentagon) and economy (The World Trade Centre). I know that doesn't make it any better, but it gave it some sense in geo-political terms.

But these Paris attacks are about nothing but wanton murder. ISIS did it purely for the reaction. I mean, seriously. What the feck?!

And the worst thing is that every time we try to tackle an enemy, a worse one pops up in its place. I can't see where we can go from here. Shit. I'm gonna go out and get drunk.
 
VorZakone said:
Do you think the terrorist attacks will stop if the Western countries halt ALL their activities in the Middle-East?
Click to expand...

Of course not it's already too late for this, we have done too much damage for it just to be over all of a sudden if we disappear. We need a Marshall Plan for the middle east. Rebuild these countries, give them an infrastructure that can help them build a democratic society, it will take it's time and it will be expensive and we will have to take some hits on the chin to make it happen but the alternative is even worse.

Every time our drones throw bombs on their houses we will provide the soil that extremism thrives on and this cycle of violence will never stop.
 
KeaneSixteen said:
You've got to ask what gives the West the right to interfere in any of these countries politics. It's almost a given now that we accept the US, UK, France etc have a right to comment on, or intercede in what happens in say Syria, or Yemen. The grievance stems in part from our interfering in other countries affairs, not just Middle Eastern countries affairs, for economic or strategic reasons.
Click to expand...
Well throughout the 70s and 80s it was necessary to 'interfere' because of the context of the cold war. Deciding to give up the rest of the world to the Soviet Union would have been madness and a disaster. The west won the main battle remember?

The fight against Islamic fundamentalism is the new big battle, and we'll win that too.
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
Thats the point. IS cant hurt Western powers militarily, so they have to do this.

They want to scare France into leaving the middle east. They cant do that be taking on the French/US/British armies, so they try to wreak havoc in civilian Paris.

Concept being, they scare the civilian population into forcing the Government to leave the middle east, as the public supposedly control the government in a Democracy.
Click to expand...
They could have hurt France militarily. They chose another route.

And they certainly don't want to scare France away from involvement, that's not going to happen and they know it. They want to legitimise their cause with more war. And they want to terrorise civilians as they believe their mandate requires
 
VorZakone said:
Do you think the terrorist attacks will stop if the Western countries halt ALL their activities in the Middle-East?
Click to expand...

It may get worse. For west the situation is like: "He who rides a tiger is afraid to dismount."
 
Just heard on the news that there are another 99 people injured to the state of 'absolute emergency'. feck this world.
 
VorZakone said:
The presence of US troops in Saudi-Arabia triggered the hate towards the West in the mid-late 90's I think?
Click to expand...
That's one of the things that ticked off Bin Laden, but if you're going to launch terrorist attacks because of a few benign military bases, then you'll basically always find some excuse for violence.

Sometimes you have to just acknowledge that there are people who hate us because of who we are and how we live. They are our enemies. And we should be working to destroy them with as little war and violence as possible.
 
Christ, the German National Football team spent the night in Stade de France.
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
That's abit naive.

IS don't attack civilians because they get kicks n giggles out of it, they do it because its the most devastating thing they can do given their size compared to their enemy.

IS cant fight a standard fight because they don't have the money, arms, manpower, logistics, experience or reach to compete. So they make statements in attacks on civilians.

And no matter what you hear at press conferences, if you think Western Powers wouldn't bomb a hospital full of innocents if it meant killing a high profile target, your kidding yourself.

The whole concept of being able to fight, beat and end Terrorism is ridiculous. It simply cant be done, and continuing to bomb the middle-eats, invade its countries and ransack its wealth can only make it worse.
Click to expand...

You are giving a legitimacy to ISIS that they don't deserve. The Islamic State is not a country but a group concocted and funded by wealthy individuals who do not belief the nonsense they are spouting, but who profit from the evil actions of this organisation.

There are many issues with Western governments, there is institutional corruption and rife dishonesty, but they are legitimate states and governments who are held to a semblance of accountability in their actions abroad. Speaking about ISIS as though they have the same standing is wrong imo.
 
rcoobc said:
They could have hurt France militarily. They chose another route.

And they certainly don't want to scare France away from involvement, that's not going to happen and they know it. They want to legitimise their cause with more war. And they want to terrorise civilians as they believe their mandate requires
Click to expand...

How do they hurt Western Power's militarily?

Best they could do with similar means is try and bomb a base of some sort, which are far far harder to get near. And the day after France buys or builds 10x what they lose without much thought.
 
Woodzy said:
Just heard on the news that there are another 99 people injured to the state of 'absolute emergency'. feck this world.
Click to expand...

:(

Looks like it's only going to get worse, never realised so many more were critical.
 
VorZakone said:
Do you think the terrorist attacks will stop if the Western countries halt ALL their activities in the Middle-East?
Click to expand...

I think there's some out there, luckily in the minority, that truly believe this. Once everybody works out ISIS or any extreme Muslim branch are not there to negotiate the quicker we can act to stamp on it. Leave them alone and they will get stronger and carry out more and more attacks. They want us all in our graves and that's about it as far as their ideology goes.

Unfortunately there isn't a peaceful option...not because of us but because of their toxic violent beliefs. Luckily for us we are bigger and stronger and we should demonstrate this IMO.
 
VorZakone said:
The presence of US troops in Saudi-Arabia triggered the hate towards the West in the mid-late 90's I think?
Click to expand...

Yes, and the original quarrel of all such groups: Israel

Like Mike said, it was just bases that were still around in the aftermath of the Gulf War. UBL was a upset in '91 because he offered to lead a jihadi fight to protect Saudi Arabia, but the Royal Family preferred to go with the Americans (what would you do? Jihadis or largest military on earth?)

As illegitimate as we might regard many of these middle-east royal families, remember that Bin Laden wasn't saying "stop supporting them so that we can establish peaceful democracy". He was already a fringe character, don't believe he was even that widely known to the Arab public. His demand might appear small, that the americans leave Saudi Arabia (I think they later did), but its one man and his group trying to dictate to two sovereign nations.
 
diarm said:
You are giving a legitimacy to ISIS that they don't deserve. The Islamic State is not a country but a group concocted and funded by wealthy individuals who do not belief the nonsense they are spouting, but who profit from the evil actions of this organisation.

There are many issues with Western governments, there is institutional corruption and rife dishonesty, but they are legitimate states and governments who are held to a semblance of accountability in their actions abroad. Speaking about ISIS as though they have the same standing is wrong imo.
Click to expand...
Agreed
 
Kill 'em all said:
For a start, close our borders. Stop the idea of integrating illegal immigrants and instead send them back to their countries. Stop all this crap about multiculturalism that Merkel is trying to feed to everyone and stop the bullshit.
Click to expand...

What impact do you think that would have on trade for one thing? As far as I know the policy towards illegal immigrants hasn't been changed, unless you're talking about ignoring applications for refuge which would involve either a major change in UN policy which more than likely wouldn't happen, or leaving the UN. Would you favour your country leaving the UN?
 
Kill 'em all said:
Retaliate, invade and neutralize in the same way the much criticized Russia is doing to great effect.
Click to expand...

Yeah and because we never kill any civilians in the process those people who lose their loved once will turn thankfully towards us and celebrate us as their saviors instead of trying to cut our heads of for causing coming into their country and killing their friends and family? Russia won't win any friends with this method in the middle east, just as the US didn't. If you should somehow still have the illusion that we can just hunt these people special OPs style down and kill them in one on one combat you need to pay better attention to how our previous "surgical" strikes went. Do the words "collateral damage" ring a bell?
 
Kill 'em all said:
For a start, close our borders. Stop the idea of integrating illegal immigrants and instead send them back to their countries. Stop all this crap about multiculturalism that Merkel is trying to feed to everyone and stop the bullshit.
Click to expand...
France's problems come from its monoculturalism. Multiculturalism is relatively successful.
 
diarm said:
You are giving a legitimacy to ISIS that they don't deserve. The Islamic State is not a country but a group concocted and funded by wealthy individuals who do not belief the nonsense they are spouting, but who profit from the evil actions of this organisation.

There are many issues with Western governments, there is institutional corruption and rife dishonesty, but they are legitimate states and governments who are held to a semblance of accountability in their actions abroad. Speaking about ISIS as though they have the same standing is wrong imo.
Click to expand...

The legitimacy of a state is a whole other debate that's never going to end. France itself is a concoction of old states it conquered, many of whom still want independence. Almost every country is. The US all but exterminated a whole race of people to get where it is.... IS are making a land grab in the name of their religion, going against the majority of that religion. Legitimacy is all but irrelevant...its happening, a new state is being formed.
 
stop trying to integrate illegal immigrants after an attack shows the very thing they're fleeing in their home country?

f**king hell :D

reactionary attitudes seem to be a popular thing on the caf now.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Well throughout the 70s and 80s it was necessary to 'interfere' because of the context of the cold war. Deciding to give up the rest of the world to the Soviet Union would have been madness and a disaster. The west won the main battle remember?

The fight against Islamic fundamentalism is the new big battle, and we'll win that too.
Click to expand...

I should have included Russia in my post. Foreign intervention in the region goes back further than that, at least to the turn of the last century, around the time of the discovery of oil. The situation in Syria reminds me of the Cold War, with the US and its allies on one side and Russia on the other, both with opposite agendas. With the poor Syrians stuck in the middle, getting it from all sides.
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
The legitimacy of a state is a whole other debate that's never going to end. France itself is a concoction of old states it conquered, many of whom still want independence. Almost every country is. The US all but exterminated a whole race of people to get where it is.... IS are making a land grab in the name of their religion, going against the majority of that religion. Legitimacy is all but irrelevant...its happening, a new state is being formed.
Click to expand...

native american's a human tragedy - that it started as tribal wars many years , 1000's of years , before the conquistadores arrived in the new world should also be noted. it's all tribal isn't it?
 
Kill 'em all said:
Retaliate, invade and neutralize in the same way the much criticized Russia is doing to great effect.



Solutions? There are many and most of them require very limited violence.

For a start, close our borders. Stop the idea of integrating illegal immigrants and instead send them back to their countries. Stop all this crap about multiculturalism that Merkel is trying to feed to everyone and stop the bullshit.

Many have predicted and talked about such a situation developing in the past but we were called paranoid and racist. I don't hate, I just fear my safety. Am I racist just because I fear that if things continue the way they're doing, I won't feel safe in my own home?
Click to expand...

Racist? Don't know. Xenophobic & misinformed? Perhaps. The reports are that most of the attackers were French nationals born in France.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
It's an option. But the West basically can't win in these type of arguments... the US has got a tonne of criticism over the years for 'propping up brutal middle-eastern dictators'. Are we now saying they were doing the right thing all along?

For example, everyone is calling for the Saudi regime to be brought down, but who knows what would fill that vacuum.

We need to accept that there are no real good options and everything we do might look bad with the benefit of hindsight.
Click to expand...

My moral compass isn't the best so I don't have a big problem with interferences, what bothers me is that our politicians think that they are smart when they are not. Iraq is the best example, we created a weak state in an unstable area where known megalomaniacs live, we created the opportunity by getting rid of Saddam, we are talking about our own safety here, there is no moral high ground to take and sometimes our politicians seem to be more interested by the Nobel Peace than what really matters for their citizens.
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
The legitimacy of a state is a whole other debate that's never going to end. France itself is a concoction of old states it conquered, many of whom still want independence. Almost every country is. The US all but exterminated a whole race of people to get where it is.... IS are making a land grab in the name of their religion, going against the majority of that religion. Legitimacy is all but irrelevant...its happening, a new state is being formed.
Click to expand...

IS have been directly responsible for the deaths of more people in the region you say they are trying to grab than any Western country has.

I don't agree that they have any interest in forming a state in the same way France, the US or other countries were formed. It is simply another mechanism by which they can spread anarchy. Chaos and carnage is the only aim of this organisation because that is exactly what profits those who are backing it. They are not looking to establish a safe haven for their people for they do not care for any people. They aren't trying to avenge atrocities committed against them, for they have committed more and worse against their own and others indiscriminately. They are not doing anything in the name of their religion because those who truly run the organisation, do believe in the rules of the religion themselves.
 
MarceloFalcon said:
We're just asking the same question that police will be asking themselves "is this passport legit? does it really belong to this dead pos?".
Click to expand...

Unless the guy's face has been disfigured, there should be no difficulty verifying that the passport belongs to him. As for its authenticity, expert examination should be able to determine that.
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
This immigration thing is ridiculous too. If IS want to get into Europe they will. It doesn't matter if the "borders" are closed.

The US, supposed biggest and baddest country there is, cant keep millions of Mexican's from crossing its borders every year, what the hell would Europe do with a monumental amount of land border to cover, aswell an even bigger amount of coastline.

Two-bit wannabe mafia's all over the world smuggle masses of sex-slaves all over Europe and the US, why wouldn't IS be able to.

Its stupid, utterly stupid.
Click to expand...
The reason why US let all the illegals cross the border was for economic reasons, cheap labor because if they want they change a law and anybody giving work to an undocumented man/woman would be highly penalized.
 
Has it been reported anywhere that the 3 men have been identified? I've only read that 3 were found with passports. I'd assume that the nationality of modern passports can be established by the material used or chips, even if the document itself has been severely damaged.
 
diarm said:
IS have been directly responsible for the deaths of more people in the region you say they are trying to grab than any Western country has.

I don't agree that they have any interest in forming a state in the same way France, the US or other countries were formed. It is simply another mechanism by which they can spread anarchy. Chaos and carnage is the only aim of this organisation because that is exactly what profits those who are backing it. They are not looking to establish a safe haven for their people for they do not care for any people. They aren't trying to avenge atrocities committed against them, for they have committed more and worse against their own and others indiscriminately. They are not doing anything in the name of their religion because those who truly run the organisation, do believe in the rules of the religion themselves.
Click to expand...

Forming a state and profiting from the chaos are not mutually exclusive. One will help the other in fact. And both are happening.

They are doing it in the name of their religion, their version of the religion is simply very very different to that of others within Islam, but they are not alone in that. Saying Islam's leaders believe in one thing alternate to IS is just vague and pointless. There are many many different versions of Islam, and many "leaders" of Islam believe and preach different things, just as there are many many different versions of Christianity, and many Christian "leaders" who believe different things and will fight to prove their own version correct. Protestants V Catholics ring any bells? just for a start.
 
diarm said:
Has it been reported anywhere that the 3 men have been identified? I've only read that 3 were found with passports. I'd assume that the nationality of modern passports can be established by the material used or chips, even if the document itself has been severely damaged.
Click to expand...

News have been saying it was this one guy with a Syrian passport on him and 6/7 French nationals, suggesting they have identified them enough to know they were French Nationals.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.