Paris terror attacks on Friday 13th

GimmeAKitKat said:
Im starting to think some of the caf's members are employed as spin doctors for our governments in their real lives.
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Everyone is pissed off. Everyone is really really hurt. Everyone understands and wants revenge.

Many of us stayed up last night watching the events unfold. It was ridiculous, but what else can you do? Turning off seemed almost disrespectful.

I'd say we also all want the same three things. 1) Security and peace in the west, and for these type of things never to happen again. 2) The perpetrators and their supporters to be removed from the face of this earth. 3) For the middle east to no longer be our problem.

Doesn't matter if you are from the left or from the right. Doesn't matter if you are Muslim or not. The problems are the same and the solution has to work for all.

Muslims hate ISIS. Of course they do. ISIS are destroying them; culturally in eyes and mind of the west and physically with the deaths of hundreds of thousands of muslims in Iraq and Syria.
 
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rcoobc said:
They will probably take the piss out of Paris casualties in a similar way to what they did to the Russians
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Doubt it. They only dare knock those far away. And not even in a funny way. I just thought their knocking of the plane crash was extreme poor taste, not 'satire'. Anyway, I digress...
 
Jippy said:
Doubt it. They only dare knock those far away. And not even in a funny way. I just thought their knocking of the plane crash was extreme poor taste, not 'satire'. Anyway, I digress...
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It was in terrible taste. Much of their content is. Free speech is a funny thing.
 
PedroMendez said:
so new reports say, that at least one perpetrator came from Syria via Turkey and Greece in October. Bad news for refugees.
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Not surprised if true. That risk will always be present when you let in thousands of refugees.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
You know politicians, can't beat a jolly good war to whet the appetite.
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Unfortunately that's exactly what we will do, intensify our "war" against ISIS and help to create even more people who hate us and want to kill us because our drones killed someone who was close to them. Violence begets more violence I hope some of our politicians remember that but I'm afraid the noise of the weapons lobby will probably make sure the voice of reason isn't heard over the voices that call for revenge.
 
rcoobc said:
Everyone is pissed off. Everyone is really really hurt. Everyone understands and wants revenge.

Many of us stayed up last night watching the events unfold. It was ridiculous, but what else can you do? Turning off seemed almost disrespectful.

I'd say we also all want the same three things. 1) Security and peace in the west, and for these type of things never to happen again. 2) The perpetrators and their supports to be removed from the face of this earth. 3) For the middle east to no longer be our problem.

Doesn't matter if you are from the left or from the right. Doesn't matter if you are Muslim or not. The problems are the same and the solution has to work for all.

Muslims hate ISIS. Of course they do. ISIS are destroying them; culturally in the western eyes, physically with the deaths of hundreds of thousands of muslims in Iraq and Syria.
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Felt the same, still do. Trying to get work done that I couldn't last night, and just seems insignificant. Prefer to talk about this, think about this... solving this is a much greater task than anything I have to do for work.
 
Kill 'em all said:
How can Europe remain so passive when the safety of our citizens within our borders is being threatened. "Standing side by side" and "prayers" is just more politically correct bullshit. Take a stand and tackle the problem.
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To be fair there would be a hell of a lot of criticism if there was no comment from any political leaders.

What would you like to see them doing in the first 24 hours after an attack like this?

Also do you think what you see on the news is the full extent of what will actually be happening right now between these countries?
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
America and other western powers have knowingly caused more civilian deaths than Paris suffered last night. What exactly is it that separates these bad IS atrocities from the goody goody Western atrocities?
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Some atrocities by the west are probably just as bad as the ones that occurred yesterday. However, Paris was at peace. None of those targeted were at war with ISIS. ISIS just wanted to hurt innocent people, and thats the truth. Holland is wrong, it wasnt an act of war. It was a deliberate massacre of civilians.

And lastly, the western world makes mistakes, but they are (for the most part) trying to make the world a better place, including for those that they are bombing. ISIS wasnt trying to make Paris a better place.
 
NoLogo said:
Unfortunately that's exactly what we will do, intensify our "war" against ISIS and help to create even more people who hate us and want to kill us because our drones killed someone who was close to them. Violence begets more violence I hope some of our politicians remember that but I'm afraid the noise of the weapons lobby will probably make sure the voice of reason isn't heard over the voices that call for revenge.
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Its not the lobby. Its a legitimate thought. I see no other way, no other proposal seems as realistic as continuously targeting and killing these individuals. I don't like that its done, I don't celebrate their deaths like a United goal or something, but I think its what must be done.
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
America and other western powers have knowingly caused more civilian deaths than Paris suffered last night. What exactly is it that separates these bad IS atrocities from the goody goody Western atrocities?
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Didn't the CIA detonate a car bomb in Beirut to eliminate someone despite knowing there would be extensive 'collateral damage'?= innocents killed.
 
rcoobc said:
Some atrocities by the west are probably just as bad as the ones that occurred yesterday. However, Paris was at peace. None of those targeted were at war with ISIS. ISIS just wanted to hurt innocent people, and thats the truth. Holland is wrong, it wasnt an act of war. It was a deliberate massacre of civilians.

And lastly, the western world makes mistakes, but they are (for the most part) trying to make the world a better place, including for those that they are bombing. ISIS wasnt trying to make Paris a better place.
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Yeah man, Iraq and Afghanistan are so much better off than pre-invasion. I guess all those dead innocent civilians was 'worth it' ?
 
Kill 'em all said:
How can Europe remain so passive when the safety of our citizens within our borders is being threatened. "Standing side by side" and "prayers" is just more politically correct bullshit. Take a stand and tackle the problem.
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The question that I haven't seen answered yet, is should the borders already be closed (or rather have border checks).

Maybe... it wouldn't have made a difference. They would have just used home made explosives instead.
 
VorZakone said:
Yeah man, Iraq and Afghanistan are so much better off than pre-invasion. I guess all those dead innocent civilians was 'worth it' ?
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I don't think anyone would argue that our invasions ended up being disastrous, and had few positive effects, to be fair.
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
America and other western powers have knowingly caused more civilian deaths than Paris suffered last night. What exactly is it that separates these bad IS atrocities from the goody goody Western atrocities?
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A bit extreme but put it this way: if the US wanted to just kill civilians, the count can go as far as every human on earth. UK, France, even Russia and China much the same. If killing civilians were the core goal of real countries, their ability to do so goes much beyond the incidents where this unfortunately happens.

That's what separates it. It means nothing to the dead, I know. But it should to us.
 
VorZakone said:
Yeah man, Iraq and Afghanistan are so much better off than pre-invasion. I guess all those dead innocent civilians was 'worth it' ?
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Definitely not. But the Syrian government have committed atrocities against it's own people, and so did Saddam Hussain.

We fecked up Iraq royally. We were wrong to go in. It's a mess we have made. But at the same time, it's not quite the same
 
DomesticTadpole said:
What do you do though? Who can you negotiate with, this isn't a country we are dealing with it's an ideology.
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It's a country with an ideology, if we limit it to ISIS. But they are not willing to negotiate.
 
rcoobc said:
Definitely not. But the Syrian government have committed atrocities against it's own people, and so did Saddam Hussain.

We fecked up Iraq royally. We were wrong to go in. It's a mess we have made. But at the same time, it's not quite the same
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This is where I also have to disagree about Assad. Syrian friends of mine told me that the rebels fighting Assad are much more worse than Assad ever was.
 
rcoobc said:
Some atrocities by the west are probably just as bad as the ones that occurred yesterday. However, Paris was at peace. None of those targeted were at war with ISIS. ISIS just wanted to hurt innocent people, and thats the truth. Holland is wrong, it wasnt an act of war. It was a deliberate massacre of civilians.

And lastly, the western world makes mistakes, but they are (for the most part) trying to make the world a better place, including for those that they are bombing. ISIS wasnt trying to make Paris a better place.
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I do not belief this cover story of the West's motives. They do what they do for the benefit of those in positions of power in their nation's network.

Eg. Various actions in South America were against groups making major improvements to the quality of life of the natives, but contrary to external capitalist interests. I have seen no evidence of alternative motivation, despite the spin. Revenge sold well at the voting booths for many too.
 
VorZakone said:
This is where I also have to disagree about Assad. Syrian friends of mine told me that the rebels fighting Assad are much more worse than Assad ever was.
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Even if they're worse than Assad though, it's understandable as to why we'd be extremely reluctant to work alongside him.
 
rcoobc said:
Some atrocities by the west are probably just as bad as the ones that occurred yesterday. However, Paris was at peace. None of those targeted were at war with ISIS. ISIS just wanted to hurt innocent people, and thats the truth. Holland is wrong, it wasnt an act of war. It was a deliberate massacre of civilians.

And lastly, the western world makes mistakes, but they are (for the most part) trying to make the world a better place, including for those that they are bombing. ISIS wasnt trying to make Paris a better place.
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That's abit naive.

IS don't attack civilians because they get kicks n giggles out of it, they do it because its the most devastating thing they can do given their size compared to their enemy.

IS cant fight a standard fight because they don't have the money, arms, manpower, logistics, experience or reach to compete. So they make statements in attacks on civilians.

And no matter what you hear at press conferences, if you think Western Powers wouldn't bomb a hospital full of innocents if it meant killing a high profile target, your kidding yourself.

The whole concept of being able to fight, beat and end Terrorism is ridiculous. It simply cant be done, and continuing to bomb the middle-eats, invade its countries and ransack its wealth can only make it worse.
 
VorZakone said:
This is where I also have to disagree about Assad. Syrian friends of mine told me that the rebels fighting Assad are much more worse than Assad ever was.
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It's an option. But the West basically can't win in these type of arguments... the US has got a tonne of criticism over the years for 'propping up brutal middle-eastern dictators'. Are we now saying they were doing the right thing all along?

For example, everyone is calling for the Saudi regime to be brought down, but who knows what would fill that vacuum.

We need to accept that there are no real good options and everything we do might look bad with the benefit of hindsight.
 
Amar__ said:
I am not sure how two bolded parts are connected, and why exactly do you find "Pray for Palestine" photos as something bad?
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Any form of politicising a current tragedy I find rather tasteless. Whether it's Palestine, Israel, or the ubiquitous "Where are all the headlines/retweets for the daily tragedies in X, Y and Z?"...It's a form of self important outrage that aims to make others feel bad for sharing well meaning sympathies.

It also not only implies the person in question is more caring than you - whilst both implicitly demeaning both you and the tragedy in question - it also implies they're better, because they're upset about the "right" things. Those things usually being things and causes they've more sympathy with, a sympathy that's inherently better than your sympathy.

The whole thing is rather intellectually nasty IMO. Agenda dressed up as egalitarianism.
 
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MikeUpNorth said:
It's an option. But the West basically can't win in these type of arguments... the US has got a tonne of criticism over the years for 'propping up brutal middle-eastern dictators'. Are we now saying they were doing the right thing all along?
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The West can't win because the West's initial interest has never been the safety of civilians in those areas. Therefore they act differently than what's "right". Nobody is 100% clean here, not the West and not the radical Islamists.
 
Feedingseagulls said:
I do not belief this cover story of the West's motives. They do what they do for the benefit of those in positions of power in their nation's network.

Eg. Various actions in South America were against groups making major improvements to the quality of life of the natives, but contrary to external capitalist interests. I have seen no evidence of alternative motivation, despite the spin. Revenge sold well at the voting booths for many too.
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South Americans are responsible for their own tragedies and triumphs since they became independent in the 19th century. This is a tale they tell themselves about the americans always meddling to their advantage. I'm Brazilian and have studied our history in detail, the americans barely cared most of the time. We've always been fine at fecking ourselves on our own.
 
rcoobc said:
The question that I haven't seen answered yet, is should the borders already be closed (or rather have border checks).

Maybe... it wouldn't have made a difference. They would have just used home made explosives instead.
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This immigration thing is ridiculous too. If IS want to get into Europe they will. It doesn't matter if the "borders" are closed.

The US, supposed biggest and baddest country there is, cant keep millions of Mexican's from crossing its borders every year, what the hell would Europe do with a monumental amount of land border to cover, aswell an even bigger amount of coastline.

Two-bit wannabe mafia's all over the world smuggle masses of sex-slaves all over Europe and the US, why wouldn't IS be able to.

Its stupid, utterly stupid.
 
VorZakone said:
The West can't win because the West's initial interest has never been the safety of civilians in those areas. Therefore they act differently than what's "right". Nobody is 100% clean here, not the West and not the radical Islamists.
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No one is pretending the west's primary concern is the people living in the middle-east... our primary concern is obviously our own safety.
 
Amar__ said:
I am not sure how two bolded parts are connected, and why exactly do you find "Pray for Palestine" photos as something bad?
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Because they were at the same day that 'Pray for Paris' photos were going. It was at best case a 'no-one cares for us, why we should care for them', and at worst case a total lack of empathy, if not agreeing with those events.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
No one is pretending the west's primary concern is the people living in the middle-east... our primary concern is obviously our own safety.
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Do you think the terrorist attacks will stop if the Western countries halt ALL their activities in the Middle-East?
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
That's abit naive.

IS don't attack civilians because they get kicks n giggles out of it, they do it because its the most devastating thing they can do given their size compared to their enemy.

IS cant fight a standard fight because they don't have the money, arms, manpower, logistics, experience or reach to compete. So they make statements in attacks on civilians.

And no matter what you hear at press conferences, if you think Western Powers wouldn't bomb a hospital full of innocents if it meant killing a high profile target, your kidding yourself.

The whole concept of being able to fight, beat and end Terrorism is ridiculous. It simply cant be done, and continuing to bomb the middle-eats, invade its countries and ransack its wealth can only make it worse.
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I see what you are saying and I understand what you mean, but ISIS didn't try to hurt France militarily yesterday.
 
VorZakone said:
Do you think the terrorist attacks will stop if the Western countries halt ALL their activities in the Middle-East?
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Of course they wouldn't stop, the attacks would get worse. There wasn't much Western activity in the middle-east at the time of the 9/11 attacks, and they were the most deadly example of this kind of thing.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
It's an option. But the West basically can't win in these type of arguments... the US has got a tonne of criticism over the years for 'propping up brutal middle-eastern dictators'. Are we now saying they were doing the right thing all along?

For example, everyone is calling for the Saudi regime to be brought down, but who knows what would fill that vacuum.

We need to accept that there are no real good options and everything we do might look bad with the benefit of hindsight.
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You've got to ask what gives the West the right to interfere in any of these countries politics. It's almost a given now that we accept the US, UK, France etc have a right to comment on, or intercede in what happens in say Syria, or Yemen. The grievance stems in part from our interfering in other countries affairs, not just Middle Eastern countries affairs, for economic or strategic reasons.
 
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