Paris terror attacks on Friday 13th

[Member 39557]

How though? And who is going to do that?

I don't have the answers, but clearly the strategy of drawn out armed conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan and the more recent bombing raids in support of anti Isis factions isn't working.

Perhaps starting by investigating any common links in the situations that lead known European Isis fighters to flee to their cause and then developing strategies to go out into their communities and work with them. Whether it's poverty, disenfranchisement, lack of education, peer pressure etc. Start community projects, invest money in education and training for young people in problem areas and try and combat these things at the beginning, rather than drop bombs on them at the end.

When you have European citizens going abroad to join Isis, you have to ask why, rather than just shrug your shoulders and say they've been brainwashed by them nasty Muslims.

 

[TheReligion]

It's all good and well David Cameron talking about maintaining the highest levels of security in the UK yet behind the scenes his government continues to cut Policing beyond critical levels with further cuts this month yet the public doesn't seem interested or concerned.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Seems a bit convenient I must say, not exactly shocked though given that every news report you hear about ISIS comes from or mentions Syria.

ISIS have been bragging for over a year that they were loading the immigrant boats with agents to carry out terrorist attacks. If they have managed to do it, especially so soon, it is a massive score for them. Of course they would carry their passports if that is the case.

It totally destabilises the EU politically if these are recent immigrants, causes further divisions through the EU, between Muslims and non Muslims and thus furthers ISIS's cause.

It would be better for everyone if these were French nationals.

 

[Maxii]

England v. France game is going ahead on Tuesday. A bit surprised.

You can't just shut down all events because of this though. Yes, there may be a danger of something happening, but there's probably just as big a danger next month as there is this week. Cancelling games and whatever else is giving them what they want.

 

[Phurry]

England v. France game is going ahead on Tuesday. A bit surprised.

The whole point of these terror attacks is to try and destroy what we consider as normal, to disrupt our way of life. If it goes ahead it's a message being sent back to the terrorists, telling them that their attacks won't change anything.

 

[Raoul]

I don't understand why some people make comments lumping religions together. Christ went to a cross to die at the hands of his enemies and asked that they be forgiven even after he was flogged, spat on and nailed to the wood, and the challenge for Christians is to follow this example of kindness in the face of blackest evil. He had that heart towards people every bit as vile as the ISIS militants who view the slaughter of civilians as beneficial, while Muhammad conquered with a sword and abrogated his own comments about the lack of compulsion in religion in those verses of the Qur'an that come later, such as Surah 9.29. And here is the commentary by one of their own most respected commentators:

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2567&Itemid=64

Take it to the religion thread.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Which itself was a misguided response to 9/11, which itself was a miguided response to previous incursions, which itself was, etc etc. As always in these discussions you're incredibly over eager to stop all the buck on one side.

It all started with the Sunni/Shia split within Islam. When did that occur @Uzz ?

 

[RedSky]

It's all good and well David Cameron talking about maintaining the highest levels of security in the UK yet behind the scenes his government continues to cut Policing beyond critical levels with further cuts this month yet the public doesn't seem interested or concerned.

Probably because we're living in a bubble as we haven't been hit for a while (which is a testament to our intelligence and police). It'll become a big talking point now you'd imagine/hope.

 

[rpitchfo]

The whole point of these terror attacks is to try and destroy what we consider as normal, to disrupt our way of life. If it goes ahead it's a message being sent back to the terrorists, telling them that their attacks won't change anything.

The difference is France cant seem to get a grip of its intelligence operations. 6th terror attack in a year.

7 terrorists pulled this off with massive resources. That takes time and planning. Every single one of these terrorists will have been known to the authorities.

I wouldn't be going anywhere near France till they prove capable of protecting their citizens.

 

[JuveGER]

You realise that the reason they hate us is because we murder them without bias, right? You seem to think they should be thankful for us bombing them or killing them in drone strikes. I've never read anything so ignorant in my life. I would rather have a Muslim immigrant with a legitimate anger at the fact that we bomb his family on a regular basis stood next to me than someone like you who seems to think if they hate being shot at, killed and bombed then they should feck off.

I don't murder anyone at all with or without bias. In all likelihood, most if not all victims in Paris did not murder anyone with or without bias. There is no "legitimate anger" towards innocent people. Plus, the reference was made in relation to "people [...] from Africa and the Middle-East" in Western Europe. Most of them are of Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian background. "We" haven't bombed "their" countries for decades. There are mistakes that Western governments have made, but there is no such thing as "legitimate hate" towards innocent people. It's another generalisation that is unfounded. You cannot argue against generalisation towards Muslims and be an apologist for generalised hatred against Westerner at the same time without being a hypocrit.

I don't agree with Kakeru's generalisation of Muslims and immigrants from Africa and the Middle-East, but he never said the things you impute and to repeat this conjected accusations when he cannot take part in the discussion anymore is inappropriate in my opinion.

 

[Kag]

Are you even aware what century we are in right now? And there have been loads of terrorist attacks done by non-muslims groups.

I am. IS communication has been aided heavily by the relatively new inception of social media. There's a wider recruitment drive that isn't really comparable to any other at present. I'm not sure what's funny about that.

Other terrorist atrocities take place and nobody has disputed that.

 

[Zarlak]

I don't murder anyone at all with or without bias. In all likelihood, most if not all victims in Paris did not murder anyone with or without bias. There is no "legitimate anger" towards innocent people. Plus, the reference was made in relation to "people [...] from Africa and the Middle-East" in Western Europe. Most of them are of Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian background. "We" haven't bombed "their" countries for decades. There are mistakes that Western governments have made, but there is no such thing as "legitimate hate" towards innocent people. It's another generalisation that is unfounded. You cannot argue against generalisation towards Muslims and be an apologist for generalised hatred against Westerner at the same time without being a hypocrit.

I don't agree with Kakeru's generalisation of Muslims and immigrants from Africa and the Middle-East, but he never said the things you impute and to repeat this conjected accusations when he cannot take part in the discussion anymore is inappropriate in my opinion.

Once again you're confusing the discussion that was happening at the time which was why people in the Middle East and immigrants who come here to escape the hell that we helped create in their own country live in communities that hate the West. Not why the people in Paris killed those innocent people.

It's easy to do, since this thread is about the Paris attack and it was therefore off topic which I apologise for, but I feel like if anybody actually read the posts before they quote them then they'd have recognised this.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The whole point of these terror attacks is to try and destroy what we consider as normal, to disrupt our way of life. If it goes ahead it's a message being sent back to the terrorists, telling them that their attacks won't change anything.

Fantastic news. It absolutely should go ahead.

 

[Member 39557]

It's all good and well David Cameron talking about maintaining the highest levels of security in the UK yet behind the scenes his government continues to cut Policing beyond critical levels with further cuts this month yet the public doesn't seem interested or concerned.

Very valid point.

 

[Cheesy]

It's all good and well David Cameron talking about maintaining the highest levels of security in the UK yet behind the scenes his government continues to cut Policing beyond critical levels with further cuts this month yet the public doesn't seem interested or concerned.

While he continues to use tragedies to further erode our privacy.

 

[Cheesy]

Fantastic news. It absolutely should go ahead.

Agreed. I can understand any fans who opt out of going and don't feel comfortable, but we shouldn't let these terrorists disrupt our normal way of life.

 

[TheReligion]

Probably because we're living in a bubble as we haven't been hit for a while (which is a testament to our intelligence and police). It'll become a big talking point now you'd imagine/hope.

Hello mate. Hope you're okay!

Yeah I agree. It's okay thinking everything is fine looking out at everyone else when things seem okay in the UK.

I'm just amazed the public aren't outraged with the continued UK policing cuts given whats happening in the world.

When you have Chief Constables across the country warning the government how they simply can't cut anymore and you have Police forces such as Greater Manchester who once had 8,000+ constables now down to 4,000 I'm just baffled as to why the public aren't outraged.

If something happens in the UK as always the security and Police services will get slated regardless but people can't say they haven't been warned for a few years now that policing needs investment not ridiculous cuts year after year.

 

[shivab]

I don't have the answers, but clearly the strategy of drawn out armed conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan and the more recent bombing raids in support of anti Isis factions isn't working.

Perhaps starting by investigating any common links in the situations that lead known European Isis fighters to flee to their cause and then developing strategies to go out into their communities and work with them. Whether it's poverty, disenfranchisement, lack of education, peer pressure etc. Start community projects, invest money in education and training for young people in problem areas and try and combat these things at the beginning, rather than drop bombs on them at the end.

When you have European citizens going abroad to join Isis, you have to ask why, rather than just shrug your shoulders and say they've been brainwashed by them nasty Muslims.

Really like this post. Unfortunately episodes like last night lead to right wing parties gaining momentum and eventually coming into power and then such strategies go out the window. Lack of integration is such a glaring issue in France. All of Europe must learn fast from the mistakes France is making.

 

[Ubik]

F*cking hell. Sickening.

IS is basically a rogue state now in and of itself, controlling a lot of land and attacking civilians outside its borders continuously. I can't think of an enemy more deserving of being crushed by the combined force of our militaries. I hope we put them in the ground.

Reckon there's any desire for Western ground forces, though? I think we'll join in with air strikes soon but ground forces are probably still seen as a step too far.

 

[Revan]

Which itself was a misguided response to 9/11, which itself was a miguided response to previous incursions, which itself was, etc etc. As always in these discussions you're incredibly over eager to stop all the buck on one side.

Well, yes. People don't live in vacuum.

As always, the responsibility is on the people who do the acts. However, if you want to understand the entire picture, you have to look at the reasons, and history behind it. And you can go as far as you want in that aspect (well, up to the colonialism, at least).

On the other side, completely agree with you abou "Don't talk about religion, but lets talk about how western foriegn policy is completely to blame". As always the truth is on the middle, and both parts have played a major role in how things are. Add there, the human nature, various psychos and the lack of education and we see how things are.

 

[Raees]

@MikeUpNorth

Islam isn't really a reformable religion. Its entire premise is built on the notion that unlike Judaism and Christianity it is the uncorrupted word of god.. so any attempts to reform it will be seen as an attempt to alterate the true word of god.

What we need to achieve is a reform of the culture and attachment people have to the religion itself but that is so difficult. You need brave former muslims or muslims who are not just moderate but don't really believe in religion to speak out and criticise just how backwards religion can be. Wheres all the brown faces on TV having the wherewithal to speak out and condemn these atrocities and vow to fight such cowards.. or openly criticise Islamic bodies as corrupt or weak. I don't see any internal criticism. I'm hoping that the likes of ISIS are not just inspiring followers but also putting youngsters off religion full stop.. inspiring a generation to radicalise Islam in the right way.. putting religion in its place as a source of guidance but not the.only source of guidance.

Right now there is no such rhetoric and this belief that Islam can be reformed from within at this moment in time is heavily misguided. There is no will to reform.

The ban on the niqab for instance, the vast majority of Muslims will think that France has had something coming to them for quite a while. I can see why such legislation could lead to even more disenfranchisement that Eyepopper eloquently spoke of. Such laws will only force muslims to dig their heels in and refuse any reforms of their religion, the way to do it is to engage with such communities and speak to the Muslims of the future.. try to convince them that whilst religion can be important, its not the only system of values one needs to refer to when trying to live your life.

For me not enough is done by the West to promote what good values we stand for.. we need to reclaim our youth, these young Muslims ISIS recruit.. each one is a failure for us, we failed to educate them and to convince them that the West is their cultural home and something worth fighting for.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

That IS statement made me honestly Vomit. there is absolutely no way to deal with these "People" said in the most lose way possible.

 

[Prophet_of_Doom]

Very valid point.

The MI5 budget has increased considerably and the number of analysts gone up in the thousands in response to the terror threat. The sad fact is more police in the street wouldn't stop this, you need to stop it before it happens. France is a nation of armed police and it didn't help. Which is exactly why the money is being spent on intelligence.

 

[RedSky]

Hello mate. Hope you're okay!

Yeah I agree. It's okay thinking everything is fine looking out at everyone else when things seem okay in the UK.

I'm just amazed the public aren't outraged with the continued UK policing cuts given whats happening in the world.

When you have Chief Constables across the country warning the government how they simply can't cut anymore and you have Police forces such as Greater Manchester who once had 8,000+ constables now down to 4,000 I'm just baffled as to why the public aren't outraged.

If something happens in the UK as always the security and Police services will get slated regardless but people can't say they haven't been warned for a few years now that policing needs investment not ridiculous cuts year after year.

I'm good! Glad to see you're still active! I miss our talks in SM.

I think it's because people don't make the connection half the time. They don't want to think about the worst case scenario of when we're next hit so they bury their heads in the sand. I imagine/hope the cuts won't happen now, think there needs to be some common sense when it comes to the Police and Miltary cuts. But that's just my opinion.

 

[newgiz]

My thoughts are with those who are affected by the tragedy.Its a terrible situation.

Someone earlier commented about the lack of intelligence information on the attack. The problem with these sort of attacks, is that almost every one of them is a first time offender which means there would be very little data available about them in general. So its nearly impossible to predict such attacks.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Agree with every word @Raees

 

[Chorley1974]

While he continues to use tragedies to further erode our privacy.

You can't have it both ways, what do you want privacy or security?

 

[Cheesy]

Just seen the footage where people are hanging from balconies. Looks terrifying.

 

[Cheesy]

You can't have it both ways, what do you want privacy or security?

But acts like the Snooper's Charter are not going to do much to actively fight against terrorism. This isn't to contribute to the goal of making us safer; it's just to further erode our privacy.

 

[KM]

IS was created in Abu Ghraib, and other US jails post their excursion into Iraq. What we're seeing is the repercussions of half thought out foreign policy, based on lies and duplicity, where all human and civil liberties went out the window, and the US decided to do what it wants in whatever way it wants.

@Maxii - I agree with that post earlier. We can't talk about Paris, Beirut etc in isolation.

What a pathetic post.

Blame the foreign policy yet don't blame the religion. Wow.

 

[Ubik]

You can't have it both ways, what do you want privacy or security?

Of course you can, the question is how you balance it. As to the so called "snooper's charter", there hasn't really been any detailed public discussion on it, just the usual bunch on one side saying it's absolutely necessary to fight terrorism, the usual bunch on the other side saying it'll lead to 1984.

 

[Revan]

What a pathetic post.

Blame the foreign policy yet don't blame the religion. Wow.

Wasn't Al Baghdati and a few other ISIS leaders either jailed in US prisons or even working for US? Of course, that is only one of the reasons, but there is something on that.

 

[Kasper]

IS was created in Abu Ghraib, and other US jails post their excursion into Iraq. What we're seeing is the repercussions of half thought out foreign policy, based on lies and duplicity, where all human and civil liberties went out the window, and the US decided to do what it wants in whatever way it wants.

@Maxii - I agree with that post earlier. We can't talk about Paris, Beirut etc in isolation.

IS was also created through the failure of Iran's Iraq policy and egoistical interests of basically all the local big actors. Their ideological foundation goes also back hundreds of years far before any US intervention.

Western half-thought out foreign policy cannot be criticized strong enough but the 'Meh, US is at fault' thinking every time something happens is getting tedious.

 

[Eyepopper]

Serious consideration should be given to how these events are covered by the likes of Sky etc also. You can nearly taste their giddiness when watching the likes of Kay Burley standing outside the scene recounting what happened every ten minutes looking for sensationalist and evocative titbits.

 

[Member 39557]

The MI5 budget has increased considerably and the number of analysts gone up in the thousands in response to the terror threat. The sad fact is more police in the street wouldn't stop this, you need to stop it before it happens. France is a nation of armed police and it didn't help. Which is exactly why the money is being spent on intelligence.

generally, it's probably true, but I know a few police officers. I've heard tales about times when they have had to be drafted in from their normal roles to help anti-terror units cover certain situations. This is on stuff that doesn't even make the news, so theres definitely a bit of robbing peter to pay paul occurring on a basis beyond what the general public is aware of.

If you keep stretching your day-to-day resources, there isn't really any scope to make further cuts.

 

[TheReligion]

The MI5 budget has increased considerably and the number of analysts gone up in the thousands in response to the terror threat. The sad fact is more police in the street wouldn't stop this, you need to stop it before it happens. France is a nation of armed police and it didn't help. Which is exactly why the money is being spent on intelligence.

I disagree. It is not intelligence officers who offer the response to an attack or the security and presence in public places.

At the moment the police barely have the capability to attend a domestic burglary within what I would class as an appropriate time yet you have the PM saying he'll continue to do XY and Z.

People need to wake up.

 

[Mockney]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not excusing or making reasons for IS about this. But let's not pretend they just woke up and decided to do this. We're going to have to suffer for the irresponsibility of the US.

I'm not pretending that, but you are sort of pretending America and the West just woke up and decided to do this. That Abu Graib and the like just exist in a vacuum of American evilness. They're all misguided responses to misguided actions, going tit for tat and back and forth. Everyone believes their actions are justified by something else, rightly or wrongly (usually wrongly) and the way your sympathies lie dictate where you stop the buck. I'd imagine the next time there's a drone attack, you're not going to be in here claiming "What we're seeing is the repercussions of half thought out religious extremism"...But someone with different sympathies, but the exact same rationale, will be.

 

[manufanatic]

As well they should, as should the French and other countries. This is now an existential struggle and no country should compromise the security of its citizens against these savages.

I believe u and discussion back in 2001 about radical Islamists I think my approach was more measured but time has harden my heart. They can have excuses about why they are doing this and fair minded people will allow there excuses but I'm not one of those anymore. There goal is to have Islam rule the world through terror and outbreeding the native population. This is ww3 unfortunately

 

[JuveGER]

Once again you're confusing the discussion that was happening at the time which was why people in the Middle East and immigrants who come here to escape the hell that we helped create in their own country hate the West. Not why the people in Paris killed those innocent people.

That's the quote Kakeru's post was referring to:

It's not 'a few rotten apples'. That's a lie. A small group is willing to commit terrorist attacks but entire neighbourhoods throughout Western-Europe despise Western people and Western culture. These people usually come from deprived and remote areas and villages from Africa and the Middle-East with little followed education.

It's not related to "people in the Middle East" but to people in "Western-Europe neighbourhoods" and it's not specifically related to "immigrants who come here to escape the hell that we helped create in their own country". It's a general reference to People with heritage in Africa and the Middle-East. Accordingly, I don't see how people from Africa and the Middle-East have "legitimate hate" towards us and our culture as you claim. Most have roots in countries that we haven't bombed for decades. And either way, it's not a reason for "legitimate hate" against a whole nation including innocent people and people who might strongly disagree with the politics of ther country. Fortunately, while such hate exists I doubt it's a reflection of "entire neighbourhoods".

 

[Redlambs]

Serious consideration should be given to how these events are covered by the likes of Sky etc also. You can nearly taste their giddiness when watching the likes of Kay Burley standing outside the scene recounting what happened every ten minutes looking for sensationalist and evocative titbits.

You want to see the BBC one then. Asking people to count dead bodies, using twitter for breaking news and late last night one of the women presenters having to be put square in place about her wording of the Bataclan "seige".