Paris terror attacks on Friday 13th

Poor misguided, brainwashed idiots that think they're fighting for a greater cause.

It's not as black and white as blaming Islam or Western Foreign Policy. These people are destroying world Heritage sites as well. How do you politicise that? There is a need to understand the mindset of these vulnerable young men. We need to reach out to them and educate them and give them something to live for, rather than some false cause to kill and die for.

How though? And who is going to do that?

I can't see any course of actions that is going to put a stop to this at the moment. I'm not saying there aren't things that we could do, but realistically, what is the best way to stop this as soon as possible?


I feel very suspicious about this 'found Syrian passport' thing...

Wouldn't a bomb vest probably shred what the bomber might have on them? And wouldn't you plan to make the security forces' job more difficult post-event by removing things that might identify you prior to action?


Unless they wanted us to know?
Did they all blow themselves up?
 
I didn't ban him at all. I'm a newbie mod, not a mains one. I don't have the power to ban people here.

You tricked him into that statement :)

It was coming though, even last night Kakeru was on the verge. Hard times and not easy to retain the anger, but people should really think twice about it and what they post.
 
You're confusing two issues, which I don't blame you for. I was discussing with Kakeru why there is a hatred for us in the Middle East based on our actions over the last decade - not why terrorists are carrying out attacks on our soil.
Yeah, but surely the two go hand in hand?
 
Yeah, but surely the two go hand in hand?

Not necessarily. Like RS just explained, less than 0.5% of Muslims believe in this shit. That's a clear indicator that it doesn't go hand in hand. To want to murder people, many people is a mindset that people don't casually slip into. People who harbour hatred against us for bombing their country for a decade an killing their relatives don't necessarily immediately think 'I'll go to Paris and murder over 100 people'.

These attacks are carried out by lunatics, barbaric twisted individuals that represent less than 1% of the thing people want to put the blame on.
 
The scared child in me would like to see Britain, the US, France & Germany, build walled ghettos for Muslims, load up a fleet of bombers and nuke the entire middle east further into the dark ages in response.

The more rational, mature adult in me realises that in order to eradicate 'fundamentalism' the response needs to be a little more thoughtful. Too much of the response to these sort of events is placed on their effect while the real cause is over simplified, viewed in one dimension, and often worsened by the response - which is often opportunistic on the part of the western governments, based on emotion and disingenuous.

I'm in no way trying to justify attacks like this, they are wrong, quite simply. Regardless of what religion or creed you identify with, they are wrong. There is no legitimate justification. I think they are as representative of Islam in general, as they criminals who bombed Canary Warf were representative of the Irish in general, or as militia groups in the States are of Americans in general, or the people who torn London to shreds during the riots are of Londoners in general. They are misguided, and opportunistic and to some degree responding to and capitalising on a sense of disenfranchisement.

Now more than ever in the west we need to resist our urge for revenge and be as welcoming, tolerant and inclusive as we can to remove the warped justification these people wrap themselves in. Thats not to say there shouldn't be a response, but it should be appropriate, strategic and aimed at making it impossible for these people and their ideology to exist, or to be seen as appealing, real or valid.

We cannot control IS, not matter how much we want to think we can, by marginalising or blaming Muslims in general, the one thing we can be guaranteed is that we will increase the level of disenfranchisement required to drive people to seek justification in religion.

They aren't waging a holy war, they are behaving like petulant children, and like petulant children they think that they best way to get what they want is to scream and shout and be destructive. We need to respond like adults and suck any hint of oxygen from the arguments and reasons they put forward to justify themselves.

In my view the only answer to this, and many other issues that exist in the world today, are for us to see beyond emotion and try to ensure that conditions exist that enable people to flourish. If we don't do that we will continue to see those who see themselves as victims respond by lashing out.

It's a sad day, not just for Paris or France or Europe, but for all of humanity.
 
How though? And who is going to do that?

I can't see any course of actions that is going to put a stop to this at the moment. I'm not saying there aren't things that we could do, but realistically, what is the best way to stop this as soon as possible?





Unless they wanted us to know?
Did they all blow themselves up?
We live in a digital age, it might not sit right but we need the authorities to be able to monitor our communications with a fine tooth comb.
It's the only way we can realistically fight this.
 
You tricked him into that statement :)

It was coming though, even last night Kakeru was on the verge. Hard times and not easy to retain the anger, but people should really think twice about it and what they post.

Not really, I stated my view and he couldn't help but spew bile about being a disgusting person because I don't agree with the notion that people should feck off back to where they belong if they don't like the fact that we indiscriminately kill their relatives. I couldn't be happier to be called disgusting by someone like that. I'd be concerned if he liked me.
 
Scary world that we live in, now.

Why people can't seem to separate Extremists and Religion confuses me, These ISIS bastards have been brainwashed into these actions and are told that is what Allah wants them to do.

This is not the behaviour of the vast majority of Muslims, to think so and to brand a whole religion as Terrorists is fecking stupid.
What percentage of posters would you say can't seem to separate the two in this thread? About 0.5 - 1% ? Do you see the irony?

Because to me, most people are talking about muslim extremists and not muslims.
 
Not necessarily. Like RS just explained, less than 0.5% of Muslims believe in this shit. That's a clear indicator that it doesn't go hand in hand. To want to murder people, many people is a mindset that people don't casually slip into. People who harbour hatred against us for bombing their country for a decade an killing their relatives don't necessarily immediately think 'I'll go to Paris and murder over 100 people'.

These attacks are carried out by lunatics, barbaric twisted individuals that represent less than 1% of the thing people want to put the blame on.
I see your point.
 
You answered your own post. All you have to do is some basic maths to understand that even if 1% of Muslims believe in ISIS then that's 16 million people which seems far too high a number. 8 million would be 0.5%, I could carry on but you get the idea. To label an entire religion as terrorists because 0.5% or lower are extremists is absurd, but I go back to the bolded words in your post.

Excellent post.

I don't have a problem with people expressing their miss-guided opinions on here or anywhere, within limits of course, but if they are going to they really need to read sensible posts like this and be willing to alter how they see this. I have my own thoughts and opinions on religion, mostly negative truth be told, but this isn't about true muslims. This is about psychopaths who want to kill and hurt people, who want to use whatever cause they can find to do this. They want to wave guns around and act like they are warriors. It's because they are mentally sick, and they weed out the weakest and also those in need with real concerns and problems and brainwash them into thinking like they do, brainwash them into following an incredibly warped cult that happens to attach itself Islam and claim they are the true religion.
 
We live in a digital age, it might not sit right but we need the authorities to be able to monitor our communications with a fine tooth comb.
It's the only way we can realistically fight this.

:(

It's sad when they make us change our outlook and stance on things (I've always been against monitoring on that kind of level), but you might be right.
 
I'm aware that Africa has its problems, yes. But suicide vests, city centre strikes and the use of social media propaganda in an attempt to influence the masses is exclusive to Islam. The nature of the attack last night is generally exclusive to Islam.

Religion is a vacuum in which these people justify their depravity, hence it's also to blame, albeit I acknowledge it's a secondary product of wider political problems.
One of the major terrorist organisations of the 80-90s (iirc) was secular communist.
 
why would someone carry his passport with him when doing that? Sounds to me like some people want us to turn on the refugees.
Maybe in his mind he was doing this for Syria so the passport was a symbol for him? A reminder he had to go through with it if he started having doubts?
 
The two are connected, though. You can't even begin to excuse what took place in Paris any more than you can try and justify 9/11, but it isn't wrong to look at American (and/or European) actions in the middle east as a contributory factor to all of this.

But it is wrong to look at religion?
 
The danger with letting a lot of immigrants in from Syria is that some terrorists can pose as innocent refugees in order to get into Europe to commit these terrible atrocities. I feel for the victims and families.
 
The scared child in me would like to see Britain, the US, France & Germany, build walled ghettos for Muslims, load up a fleet of bombers and nuke the entire middle east further into the dark ages in response.

The more rational, mature adult in me realises that in order to eradicate 'fundamentalism' the response needs to be a little more thoughtful. Too much of the response to these sort of events is placed on their effect while the real cause is over simplified, viewed in one dimension, and often worsened by the response - which is often opportunistic on the part of the western governments, based on emotion and disingenuous.

I'm in no way trying to justify attacks like this, they are wrong, quite simply. Regardless of what religion or creed you identify with, they are wrong. There is no legitimate justification. I think they are as representative of Islam in general, as they criminals who bombed Canary Warf were representative of the Irish in general, or as militia groups in the States are of Americans in general, or the people who torn London to shreds during the riots are of Londoners in general. They are misguided, and opportunistic and to some degree responding to and capitalising on a sense of disenfranchisement.

Now more than ever in the west we need to resist our urge for revenge and be as welcoming, tolerant and inclusive as we can to remove the warped justification these people wrap themselves in. Thats not to say there shouldn't be a response, but it should be appropriate, strategic and aimed at making it impossible for these people and their ideology to exist, or to be seen as appealing, real or valid.

We cannot control IS, not matter how much we want to think we can, by marginalising or blaming Muslims in general, the one thing we can be guaranteed is that we will increase the level of disenfranchisement required to drive people to seek justification in religion.

They aren't waging a holy war, they are behaving like petulant children, and like petulant children they think that they best way to get what they want is to scream and shout and be destructive. We need to respond like adults and suck any hint of oxygen from the arguments and reasons they put forward to justify themselves.

In my view the only answer to this, and many other issues that exist in the world today, are for us to see beyond emotion and try to ensure that conditions exist that enable people to flourish. If we don't do that we will continue to see those who see themselves as victims respond by lashing out.

It's a sad day, not just for Paris or France or Europe, but for all of humanity.
Heart says meh; brain says kudos to you, Popper.
 
BREAK: French media BFM and iTELE are reporting police officials as saying:

- Syrian passport found next to the body of suspected attacker at the Stade de France

- Suspicious black car with Belgian plates found near Bataclan

Seems a bit convenient I must say, not exactly shocked though given that every news report you hear about ISIS comes from or mentions Syria.
 
Why is Denmark getting targeted? Maybe you or someone else knows more, but they stand out to me in that list without much sense (to me at least)
We started the whole Muhammed cartoon ordeal back in the day.
 
I think the world needs to see it to realise how far extremists will go. It's one thing reading about it, it's another seeing it.
It brought a tear to my eye, horrible horrible world.
Agreed, people should see the full extent of the horror and see how real it is.
 
Umm they want you to hate them/us (I'm muslim). This is what they want. Race riots, fingers being pointed (rightly or wrongly).

Without trying to sound like a victim in a thread where we are speaking of actual victims...people like me are screwed. We aren't muslim enough for them. And some of you - understandably, aren't in the mood to differentiate between them and us.

So, they hope a muslim lad in Paris spat at by an angry/devastated neighbor tomorrow thinks - oi, those guys were right...I don't actually belong. I'm not French.

They win.

I haven't got the answers - and people a lot smarter than don't either. All we've got is hope that you/me/someone you know isn't the next victim of these cnuts.

Great post. Was the same in Norway just after the bomb went off when the perpetrator's identity and ethnicity was still unclear. Loads of muslims in Norway experienced a barrage of abuse but kept calm and didn't retaliate. I admire you for your insight in such a chaotic situation.
 
Does that even make sense? A passport won't survive that. Plus why would he even have it on him? If ISIS are going to claim responsibility then this is just illogical.

I can't speak to the durability of a passport withstanding a IED, but what many people realize is that you cannot apply rationality to those who capitalize on fear, chaos, and zealotry. ISIS wants retaliation on Syria to further their cause and create a West v. Middle East Judeo-Christian v. Muslim holy war.

Religion is merely a vehicle being used to manipulate disenfranchised youth into thinking that they are carrying out acts in the name of a religious crusade. When this really no different than Manson Family, or any other cult like following.
 
IS was created in Abu Ghraib, and other US jails post their excursion into Iraq. What we're seeing is the repercussions of half thought out foreign policy, based on lies and duplicity, where all human and civil liberties went out the window, and the US decided to do what it wants in whatever way it wants.

@Maxii - I agree with that post earlier. We can't talk about Paris, Beirut etc in isolation.
 
I never implied that. I'm not even remotely religious -- look at whatever contributory factors you may deem appropriate.

Fair enough. Reading through the thread there does seem to be a concerted effort to dismiss it. It's clearly a contributing justification, just as western foriegn policy is. Just one that makes people less comfortable.
 
IS was created in Abu Ghraib, and other US jails post their excursion into Iraq. What we're seeing is the repercussions of half thought out foreign policy, based on lies and duplicity, where all human and civil liberties went out the window, and the US decided to do what it wants in whatever way it wants.

@Maxii - I agree with that post earlier. We can't talk about Paris, Beirut etc in isolation.
As if it's that simple. France opposed the Iraq war for a start.
 
IS was created in Abu Ghraib, and other US jails post their excursion into Iraq. What we're seeing is the repercussions of half thought out foreign policy, based on lies and duplicity, where all human and civil liberties went out the window, and the US decided to do what it wants in whatever way it wants.

@Maxii - I agree with that post earlier. We can't talk about Paris, Beirut etc in isolation.

Which itself was a misguided response to 9/11, which itself was a miguided response to previous incursions, which itself was, etc etc. As always in these discussions you're incredibly over eager to stop all the buck on one side.
 
Fair enough. Reading through the thread there does seem to be a concerted effort to dismiss it. It's clearly a contributing justification, just as western foriegn policy is. Just one that makes people less comfortable.

Well to be fair, it doesn't really belong in this thread. We had fools arguing about Religion last night when all we all wanted were updates, not sifting through posts of caftards making absurd posts about religion and arguing with one another, there's a time and a place Mockney. There's a 210 page long thread for that discussion.
 
Which itself was a misguided response to 9/11, which itself was a miguided response to previous incursions, which itself was, etc etc. As always in these discussion you're incredibly over eager to stop all the buck on one side.
No, no, no, there are no islamic extremist nutters born... only created!
 
What percentage of posters would you say can't seem to separate the two in this thread? About 0.5 - 1% ? Do you see the irony?

Because to me, most people are talking about muslim extremists and not muslims.

Sorry - I wasn't referring to this thread - More to my facebook 'friends' that are continually posting bullshit.

I then came in here to express my confusion as to get level headed arguments and prevent the facebooker's from piping up with more bullshit if i'd written it on facebook.
 
Well to be fair, it doesn't really belong in this thread. We had fools arguing about Religion last night when all we all wanted were updates, not sifting through posts of caftards making absurd posts about religion and arguing with one another, there's a time and a place Mockney. There's a 210 page long thread for that discussion.

I agree. But the "Don't talk about religion, but lets talk about how western foriegn policy is completely to blame" angle seems a slightly skewed and disingenuous discussion to me.
 
Feedingseagulls said:
I feel very suspicious about this 'found Syrian passport' thing...

Convenient, eh?

How-I-Did-It.gif
 
There has been considerable evidence to support this position for some time, incidentally. Unfortunately, I only envision the US ramping up even more which will only foment the seeds of hate in every corner further.

These things don't happen in a vacuum - these implicated countries have lived with some form of instability for longer than most of us have been alive. Now the new front of guerilla warfare has arrived at our doorsteps, on some level I believe this was an inevitability. What happens next will define how we will live out the rest of our lives

As well they should, as should the French and other countries. This is now an existential struggle and no country should compromise the security of its citizens against these savages.
 
Stunned by this and my heart goes out to those who died and their families.

It's depressing to see posts suggesting the answer to the atrocity is to visit another one on someone else. At some point we've got to move away from the notion that bombing people we disagree with does anything but make the situation worse. Sooner, rather than later, our leaders are going to have to sit down and consider what's firing this hatred and violence and work towards reaching a solution. The people we're facing here seem to think that destruction and violence is the way to highlight and further their cause. Responding to it in kind is surely just playing into their hands.We can't keep repeating the cycle and expecting different results
 
Which itself was a misguided response to 9/11, which itself was a miguided response to previous incursions, which itself was, etc etc. As always in these discussion you're incredibly over eager to stop all the buck on one side.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not excusing or making reasons for IS about this. But let's not pretend they just woke up and decided to do this. We're going to have to suffer for the irresponsibility of the US.
 
Sorry - I wasn't referring to this thread - More to my facebook 'friends' that are continually posting bullshit.

I then came in here to express my confusion as to get level headed arguments and prevent the facebooker's from piping up with more bullshit if i'd written it on facebook.
Yeah, facebook is not known for having the most intellectual frequent users indeed.