Paris terror attacks on Friday 13th

shivab said:
It sounds like you haven't read enough news in the last ten years. I like your posts about football related things so I wouldn't put this down to your intelligence.

Plenty of people have been slaughtered by Hindus Christians and Buddhists in the last decade let alone all history. Look it up on Google. Its easy.

Saudi Arabia doesn't represent Islam. Every Islamic country doesn't follow wahabism or salafism. Its a religion of 1 billion people. If all 1 billion were violent you and I wouldn't be alive. I am a kashmiri Hindu and my family and others have been victims of ethnic cleansing by Islamic fundamentalists in Kashmir (India). Its very easy for me to point the finger at Islam and call it the enemy. But I think better sense should prevail.

Let's not generalize and label an entire faith because of a few bad apples.
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I read enough news and my intelligence is fine, thanks.
At this point there are more than a few bad apples.I'd say full neighborhoods along Europe,besides I don't think that Saudi Arabia laws are the only to blame.
Islam needs more self criticism and big reforms,we are not in VIII century anymore
 
Kakeru said:
No, but it's not too much asked for the majority in a particular religious/cultural group to start hauling their asses and get rid of the bad apples with more aplomb on the other hand.
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Yes but this has to be done by countries and governments together with religious groups and religious heads in their respective countries. Muslims in France are ostracized and thats a huge problem and the french government must do something about it. This is a problem Germany is going to face soon as well. unfortunately incidents like these only help extreme right wing groups win elections and cone into power which then makes things worse. This is a world problem and its definitely not only up to religious leaders to make things better.
 
carvajal said:
I read enough news and my intelligence is fine, thanks.
At this point there are more that a few bad apples.I'd say full neighborhoods along Europe,besides I don't think that Saudi Arabia laws are the only to blame.
Islam needs more self criticism and big reforms,we are not in VIII century anymore
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Every religion needs self criticism. No religion is beyond that. To single out Islam is a sign of ignorance. Go read about what african christian are doing to each other. Just because that fight hasn't come to your doorstep doesn't mean its not happening. As you say yourself there are ghettos of people all across Europe and that just shows that integration is an issue not just religion. And yes I still think you need to read a bit more.
 
Gambit said:
No, you're misunderstanding me on the education front, I'm not talking about giving them a classical european education nor am I talkign about it being in the middle east. The area of radicalisation as we think of it now is by the concerted and state funded efforts of a group for the past 40 years which have targeted countries the world over regardless of the middle east. This education needs to happen in countries like the UK and France just as much as it does in Pakistan and Indonesia. It's not to be done in a forceful way but the same way as the current Saudi funded efforts that were disguised as charity.

I'm not including the Middle East in this as there's a whole other slew if issues at play there. We could stop interfering and we would all still be watching images coming out of the region that would break our hearts.
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The thing is, it depends on what we're teaching. If it's the similarities between the two belief systems then yes, I could definitely see something like that being a route to success. If it's to try and engender a reformation of Islam or Arab cultural practice, then it will fail, as it's still an imposition of an alien belief system in an ill-fitting context, and I genuinely can't see how it could benefit either us or the ME if that was to happen.

My personal belief is that if we allowed the will of the people to shine through in those nations, we would see an ultimately blossoming Middle East and it's prospects. It's our meddling which has caused us this harm, nothing else.
 
At the end of the day, all this shit can be traced back to Sykes-Picot and the break up of the Ottoman Empire. Those bastards knew what they were doing, and I hope they burn in hell for eternity.
 
Ryan7 said:
Another of the user's (the French guy, not the Reddit one) posts:
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Denmark being listed is quite unnerving considering we have two high profile games against Sweden in the next four days. Tonight's game is in Sweden but loads of people will be out watching it in bars in Copenhagen. Then we have the game on Tuesday in Copenhagen. It's sold out.
Probably paranoia but it would just seem like a perfect opportunity.
 
Woodzy said:
Quite possibly the most disturbing thing I will ever see. There's not much the guy filming could have done to help without risking his own life, but I really don't think he should have been filming that.
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I don't know. It's a terrible video and those people dragging their friends in the street might be the worst sight, but I don't think a lack of documentation is ever better than its existance. It did happen.
 
rotherham_red said:
At the end of the day, all this shit can be traced back to Sykes-Picot and the break up of the Ottoman Empire. Those bastards knew what they were doing, and I hope they burn in hell for eternity.
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It goes back even further than that. Sykes-Picot was a mistake and should have consulted all the groups involved instead of dictating the carve up, but there would have been just an equal a fall out if it hadn't happened.
 
ISIS have officially claimed responsibility and are giving details.
 
Gambit said:
It goes back even further than that. Sykes-Picot was a mistake and should have consulted all the groups involved instead of dictating the carve up, but there would have been just an equal a fall out if it hadn't happened.
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It's the nature of the colonial system, weaken it's enemies and pillage the resources... We've been living in a broken world, honestly.
 
I still can't believe this happened last night. My thoughts are with the families of the victims.


Lynk said:
Oh for feck sake. You're either a middle class liberal or muslim who's living in denial.
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Muslim who doesn't agree with radical's interpretation of Quran is muslim who's living in denial? :wenger:

What an idiot.
 
rotherham_red said:
The thing is, it depends on what we're teaching. If it's the similarities between the two belief systems then yes, I could definitely see something like that being a route to success. If it's to try and engender a reformation of Islam or Arab cultural practice, then it will fail, as it's still an imposition of an alien belief system in an ill-fitting context, and I genuinely can't see how it could benefit either us or the ME if that was to happen.

My personal belief is that if we allowed the will of the people to shine through in those nations, we would see an ultimately blossoming Middle East and it's prospects. It's our meddling which has caused us this harm, nothing else.
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Again I'm talking about a Muslim led, state funded teaching reformation the world over.

It's not just our meddling that has caused this harm. It's decades of political maneuvering from those within the Middle East just as much at fault as those in the west. It's easy for us to say it's our fault because we defeated Saddam, funded so and so, but people forget that the amount of our involvement in the first Gulf war was done at the request of our Arab allies in the region. Which was a bit of a surprise as we'd spent the last 20 years arming and traning the hell out of them.

Also I do believe we shouldn't be there and this is very much another vietnam but I also believe that even if we leave thing alone the will of the people will not shine through. Thinking that, we're placing our democratic ideals again on an area of various cultural and ethical needs and wants.
 
rotherham_red said:
It's the nature of the colonial system, weaken it's enemies and pillage the resources... We've been living in a broken world, honestly.
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It's the nature of all power systems and one that was happening in the region without our influence for centuries. We have the luck in this age of hindsight, eduucation and knowledge available to us where we can see our mistakes. What we don't see though is whats happening at this exact time as we repeat them all over again.
 
rotherham_red said:
It's the nature of the colonial system, weaken it's enemies and pillage the resources... We've been living in a broken world, honestly.
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Would you say the Balkan wars of the 90s were ultimately the result of Ottoman colonialism then? Or the depravities of the Spanish Inquisition due to Arab/Berber colonialism?
 
This is absolutely shocking. Just mental stuff. Can't even begin to imagine how scary a place Paris is right now. Fecking hell.
 
how official are sources on the groups who are funding these extremists ? why nor go after them ? killing the brainwashed pawns in the desert wont make any difference till the funding is still there .
 
F*cking hell. Sickening.

IS is basically a rogue state now in and of itself, controlling a lot of land and attacking civilians outside its borders continuously. I can't think of an enemy more deserving of being crushed by the combined force of our militaries. I hope we put them in the ground.
 
botond said:
how official are sources on the groups who are funding these extremists ? why nor go after them ? killing the brainwashed pawns in the desert wont make any difference till the funding is still there .
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Yeah I'm sure they are working on that. But it's hard to stop oil rich sheikhs and profit seeking gun runners from finding a way.
 
lilcurt said:
I fear that the wests response to these events will be just what the extremists want.

They are trying to insight a war, to build more support throughout their communities, they want a them and us situation.

Reading through what Hollande has said that is exactly what they are going to get.

Violence cannot win the day here, for every extremist killed just drives another to take up arms. You can't kill an idea after all.

What the West really need to do is look inward, work on social inclusion and making people who live here feel part of our countries and way of life. At the end of the day it is likely these attacks were by French citizens, that is where the answer lies.
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This sounds fine and dandy but I think we're past the point of making genuine social changes.
 
Kakeru said:
No, but it's not too much asked for the majority in a particular religious/cultural group to start hauling their asses and get rid of the bad apples with more aplomb on the other hand.
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Do you haul ass and help to get rid of the bad apples in your religion? I know that I don't do it for Christians for example. Why should they?
 
Woodzy said:
Quite possibly the most disturbing thing I will ever see. There's not much the guy filming could have done to help without risking his own life, but I really don't think he should have been filming that.
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I read that he's a reporter who just happens to live there, it would have been an instinct. There's also the question at that stage and so close to the event and the exit door - it could be of use to the police. It may offer instant information at a time when it's needed. He may well have been sending it straight to his employers and the authorities.
 
carvajal said:
I read enough news and my intelligence is fine, thanks.
At this point there are more than a few bad apples.I'd say full neighborhoods along Europe,besides I don't think that Saudi Arabia laws are the only to blame.
Islam needs more self criticism and big reforms,we are not in VIII century anymore
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If 1 million people walked into a public square and blew themselves up, it would still only be a few bad apples. A sense of perspective is key here. There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. That's why it is ludicrous to paint them with the same brush.
 
botond said:
how official are sources on the groups who are funding these extremists ? why nor go after them ? killing the brainwashed pawns in the desert wont make any difference till the funding is still there .
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Some people claim that they are funded by well known countries but the biggest problem is that they leave in the same world than the criminals.
 
Zarlak said:
Do you haul ass and help to get rid of the bad apples in your religion? I know that I don't do it for Christians for example. Why should they?
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Because Christians aren't the focus of such behaviour on this kind of scale.
 
botond said:
how official are sources on the groups who are funding these extremists ? why nor go after them ? killing the brainwashed pawns in the desert wont make any difference till the funding is still there .
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Don't think that attacking, i.a., the USA would be of any help at the moment.
 
jojojo said:
I read that he's a reporter who just happens to live there, it would have been an instinct. There's also the question at that stage and so close to the event and the exit door - it could be of use to the police. It may offer instant information at a time when it's needed. He may well have been sending it straight to his employers and the authorities.
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In that case, fair enough. It's also a position I will never be in myself, so who am I to decide what an acceptable thing to do at that time is?
 
It's not 'a few rotten apples'. That's a lie. A small group is willing to commit terrorist attacks but entire neighbourhoods throughout Western-Europe despise Western people and Western culture. These people usually come from deprived and remote areas and villages from Africa and the Middle-East with little followed education.
 
Maagge said:
Denmark being listed is quite unnerving considering we have two high profile games against Sweden in the next four days. Tonight's game is in Sweden but loads of people will be out watching it in bars in Copenhagen. Then we have the game on Tuesday in Copenhagen. It's sold out.
Probably paranoia but it would just seem like a perfect opportunity.
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Why is Denmark getting targeted? Maybe you or someone else knows more, but they stand out to me in that list without much sense (to me at least)
 
Kag said:
Because Christians aren't the focus of such behaviour on this kind of scale.
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The ignorance of the people on this forum really shocks me. Clearly you don't know what's happening in Africa where what can only be described as christian terrorism is pervasive. Stop blaming religion. Its people who are violent
 
Zarlak said:
That's not really relevant.
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Really? You think that maximum carnage terrorist attacks on civilians in civilian areas is not relevant?!?!

Besides, as a cultural Christian I will completely denounce the bible as patent nonsense that should not be treated with any real seriousness at all. Any crimes committed in its name is the work of sadly deluded fools.
 
Kag said:
Because Christians aren't the focus of such behaviour on this kind of scale.
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There have been genocides committed in the name of Christianity in recent history. Just because it didn't happen as close to home doesn't mean it's ok to ignore it or downplay the significance of it.
 
Zarlak said:
That's not really relevant.
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The last few hundred years of European civilisation have basically involved good people gradually talking down the religious crazies in our midst, to the point now where they're not so much of a problem, by and large. Many people helped in moderating our religious nutters and I don't see what's wrong with thinking that Islam needs to undergo a similar reforming process.
 
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