New Stadium or Revamp Old Trafford | Aim is to build 100k seater stadium

[Utd heap]

Changing the stadium doesn't mean all the memories suddenly disappear. If it's no longer practical to keep the old stadium, it makes sense to change to a new stadium which is more financially viable. We were dangerously close to violating PSR this season, so the extra revenue could be very useful moving forward. Ultimately anything that brings us closer to being title contenders again should be a priority. INEOS is a very successful business. They're not going to build a new stadium if there isn't significant benefit involved.

My priority is me and my family being able to afford tickets + every other Utd supporting family that's been going for generations.

I'm not chucking all that away to 'hopefully comply more with PSR'

if Utd are great - brill, but let's pretend we still give a shit about a bit more than that.

 

[Utd heap]

Would love one of those stands that Spurs have, one massive stand with no tiers

New stadium is the way to go, it’s on the original OT site and I’m sure they’ll be a design in place that resembles a modern OT

Exciting times

Yeah a huge stand with a massive corporate hospitality section in the middle the Spurs fans hate. At £75 a ticket for non hospitality. Woo hoo!

 

[Plant0x84]

Rectangular not a bowl.

It’s also not soulless. Even in these photos pre enlargement there are decades of history and the architecture suits the area. It is still instantly recognisable.

 

[Utd heap]

OT was a soulless bowl when it was constructed, Heaps. I hope it's not generic, I suspect it'll be great. We'll, I hope so. I love OT, I loved the way it looked in the 80s pre new Stretford End but we can't stay in the past.

No issue with updates. If we knock it down the match day vibe won't come back, ever.

Some people don't mind, I do - alot.

 

[Cole9]

Yeah a huge stand with a massive corporate hospitality section in the middle the Spurs fans hate. At £75 a ticket for non hospitality. Woo hoo!

May as well call it the Prawn Sandwich Arena.

 

[Remember the geese]

Hopefully we can make Track and Cloudwater official partners so we can get some decent beer in the ground.

 

[Dazzmondo]

My priority is me and my family being able to afford tickets + every other Utd supporting family that's been going for generations.

I'm not chucking all that away to 'hopefully comply more with PSR'

if Utd are great - brill, but let's pretend we still give a shit about a bit more than that.

It's not guaranteed that the prices will go up (any more than the usual amount with inflation). More seats would mean more tickets and more profit even at the same costs. Maybe the prices would go up but it's pure speculation at this point.

 

[Remember the geese]

I think it should fit in with the area, not look wildly out of place and I think it should have an aesthetic similar to OT (like when a car model is facelifted etc) so it is instantly recognisable.
For me the look is all important because at this point I feel like the capacity and WC facilities etc are a given.

The surrounding area is being updated though, so not sure how the current aesthetic would fit in.

 

[Spoony]

No issue with updates. If we knock it down the match day vibe won't come back, ever.

Some people don't mind, I do - alot.

Updates won't be enough. And there's just not enough room to knock each stand down and rebuild. It's funny, Town looks great now and in another decade the Skyline will look North American, but I miss the old Arndale, the smelly(piss)bus station and trudging across the awful car park from Victoria station before the place made way for the Urbis. But what we've got is much better. Rather United and Manchester have the best. That said I preferred the old OT cricket ground before they turned it into a corporate mess, so you are right that they need to get a new stadium absolutely spot on.

 

[Utd heap]

Updates won't be enough. And there's just not enough room to knock each stand down and rebuild. It's funny, Town looks great now and on another decade the Skyline will look North American, but I miss the old Arndale, the smelly(piss)bus station and trudging across the awful car park from Victoria station before the place made way for the Urbis. But what we've got is much better. Rather United and Manchester have the best. That said I preferred the old OT cricket ground before they turned into a corporate mess, so you are right that they need to get a new stadium absolutely spot on.

Town is just about hanging on to any character it has whatsoever. Old Trafford cricket ground is a shambles!

We just disagree on the ground, give it a fecking lick of paint and tell Coe and co to feck off. They're only in it for a backhander.

 

[Red in STL]

It’s also not soulless. Even in these photos pre enlargement there are decades of history and the architecture suits the area. It is still instantly recognisable.

If you transported my Grandad, who died in 1984, to the present day he wouldn't recognize it, mind you he was a City fan so he'd probably prefer being dead to being seen outside OT

 

[Spoony]

Town is just about hanging on to any character it has whatsoever. Old Trafford cricket ground is a shambles!

We just disagree on the ground, give it a fecking lick of paint and tell Coe and co to feck off. They're only in it for a backhander.

The Town I grew up in was a post war mess. It lost a lot during the war. I like the juxtaposition of Victorian and contemporary. It's fantastic. But yeah the cricket ground lost all its character. The pavilion is a joke now.

 

[Castia]

Yeah a huge stand with a massive corporate hospitality section in the middle the Spurs fans hate. At £75 a ticket for non hospitality. Woo hoo!

Higher Prices and hospitality seats are happening in every stadium regardless of the stand design

/shrug

 

[stevoc]

Changing the stadium doesn't mean all the memories suddenly disappear. If it's no longer practical to keep the old stadium, it makes sense to change to a new stadium which is more financially viable. We were dangerously close to violating PSR this season, so the extra revenue could be very useful moving forward. Ultimately anything that brings us closer to being title contenders again should be a priority. INEOS is a very successful business. They're not going to build a new stadium if there isn't significant benefit involved.

Yes but the club will have to pay billions for all this. That will be putting financial restrictions on the clubs spending for a decent amount of time.

 

[stevoc]

Yeah god forbid we ever make Old Trafford into a soulless bowl...

Huh?

OT was already close to a century old at this stage, had been the site of a mountain of history and had great atmosphere.

It might have been bowl shaped but it was anything but soulless.

Is that what that term means to you?

 

[Utd heap]

Higher Prices and hospitality seats are happening in every stadium regardless of the stand design

/shrug

Luckily we don't all have that attitude.

 

[Jed I. Knight]

It looks horrid

As they say, there’s no accounting for taste.

 

[Devil_forever]

Design wise, I hope it's more like a throwback but I fear it's going to be like a fancier and larger Wembley/Emirates. Here is the new(ish) Colts NFL stadium that has a throwback feel:
https://stadiumdb.com/pictures/stadiums/usa/lucas_oil_stadium/lucas_oil_stadium23.jpg

Inside: https://stadiumdb.com/pictures/stadiums/usa/lucas_oil_stadium/lucas_oil_stadium18.jpg

That looks disgusting.

 

[Judas]

I love the Colts stadium, get why some people might not, but it's as far away as you can get from the forbidden soulless bowl.

 

[Utd heap]

I love the Colts stadium, get why some people might not, but it's as far away as you can get from the forbidden soulless bowl.

I like the idea of a US sports stadium not being a soulless bowl.

 

[Judas]

I like the idea of a US sports stadium not being a soulless bowl.

Oh plenty of them are. The use of soulless bowl on here has lost all meaning anyway, practically every modern ground people don't like gets called one now.

No new stadium will have soul anyway. You can't manufacture it.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Yeah god forbid we ever make Old Trafford into a soulless bowl...

I loved OT when it looked like that. Now it just looks like a mess.

 

[Castia]

Luckily we don't all have that attitude.

No we just have the club reselling returned tickets for 4+ the original price and hospitality tickets at 250 quid a pop.

 

[Tibs]

Whatever happens, it'll be 18 months over schedule, and cost 25% more than what was planned for.

 

[Judas]

Whatever happens, it'll be 18 months over schedule, and cost 25% more than what was planned for.

That's the spirit.

 

[subotai]

What is it? A a stadium for ants?

It would need to be at least 3 times bigger than this.

Think the roof beams would look nice if they were made of blue steel.

 

[Salford_Red83]

Town is just about hanging on to any character it has whatsoever. Old Trafford cricket ground is a shambles!

We just disagree on the ground, give it a fecking lick of paint and tell Coe and co to feck off. They're only in it for a backhander.

Glazers gave it a lick of paint a few years ago.

Didn't stop the roof from leaking, the sewage pipes overflowing, the South Stand looking like it could fall down at any moment, concrete literally crumbling off the walls, it didn't suddenly mean my knees were no longer in the back of the person sitting in front of me.

Old Trafford is no longer a world class stadium and is more a symbol of our decline as a club.

 

[matherto]

Huh?

OT was already close to a century old at this stage, had been the site of a mountain of history and had great atmosphere.

It might have been bowl shaped but it was anything but soulless.

Is that what that term means to you?

So you're talking about a century worth of memories giving it a soul yes? Not the design?

Because give it 20-30 years of memories in the new ground and it won't be soulless.

I used it as an example because design wise in 1993/4 Old Trafford was exactly what you describe, a soulless bowl. It was the prototype for all of the subsequent one-tiered, bowl shaped stadiums around the country that were decried as being 'soulless bowls' when they replaced archaic old grounds - think Middlesbrough, Derby, Sunderland, Southampton, Leicester, etc. The additions that give it a bit of 'character' are built on that one tiered bowl and are a mess, aesthetically speaking. Old Trafford is a magical place but architecturally it's awful. We just love it because we're United fans.

The team, the players, the days and nights of great matches, the atmosphere, etc, that's what gives a stadium it's soul. That's what you're talking about when you mention the soul. It's not the building, it's the things that happen in it.

I'm 100% sure in 1910, when Old Trafford was built, and was a bowl shaped shiny new thing, as below, those early United fans also called it a soulless bowl replacing Bank Street.

There's zero reason a new ground can't have 'soul', it just takes time to build. We can have a world class venue that suits everybody and provides an amazing space for the players to do what they do best. We're supposed to be the biggest club in the world, we need the best stadium around.

 

[matherto]

It’s also not soulless. Even in these photos pre enlargement there are decades of history and the architecture suits the area. It is still instantly recognisable.

Compare that stadium in 1994 and the below

If you put all four in black and white, removed any hint of branding or seat pattern and told a non-football fan to tell you which one was Old Trafford they wouldn't have a fecking clue.

All of them are one tier bowls with a flat roof with very little difference.

We only see it as 'instantly recognisable' because it's our stadium and we love it and we love the club.

I get sentimentality, I get that it will never feel quite the same, I get it because I've had some of the best moments of my life in the theatre of dreams. All you're gonna do with that attitude it hold the club back from being all it can be. We need to compete with Real, Barca, Bayern, etc. We can't do that with a relic of the past. That ground in 1994 bore very little resemblance to the ground the Busby Babes played in because all four stands had been rebuilt (well, the first 15 or so rows was still the same). Did fans back then decry what OT had become versus the 80's one? They probably did. Do you think they care now?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Whatever happens, it'll be 18 months over schedule, and cost 25% more than what was planned for.

I’d like to think Ratcliffe knows about fixed price contracts and time penalties. It might cost a lot but I doubt it’ll be late/jump up in price…. and it’ll make a ton of money in time.

 

[dubplate warrior]

This is true, but the problem is that a lot of the more modern stadiums generate a poor atmosphere compared to older stadiums and the seats tend to be further away from the pitch.

Have you been to the Emirates or the new Wembley for example? They’re shite compared to Highbury and the old Wembley for the atatmosphere.

The atmosphere at OT isn't great.

 

[Plant0x84]

We need to compete with Real, Barca, Bayern, etc. We can't do that with a relic of the past.

Two of those clubs are creating wonderful modern stadia and world class fan experiences whilst keeping the bare bones and location etc of their existing grounds. No reason we cannot do the same.

OT is every bit as iconic in World football as the Santiago Bernabeu and Camp Nou.

 

[Top_Bins]

Compare that stadium in 1994 and the below

If you put all four in black and white, removed any hint of branding or seat pattern and told a non-football fan to tell you which one was Old Trafford they wouldn't have a fecking clue.

All of them are one tier bowls with a flat roof with very little difference.

We only see it as 'instantly recognisable' because it's our stadium and we love it and we love the club.

I get sentimentality, I get that it will never feel quite the same, I get it because I've had some of the best moments of my life in the theatre of dreams. All you're gonna do with that attitude it hold the club back from being all it can be. We need to compete with Real, Barca, Bayern, etc. We can't do that with a relic of the past. That ground in 1994 bore very little resemblance to the ground the Busby Babes played in because all four stands had been rebuilt (well, the first 15 or so rows was still the same). Did fans back then decry what OT had become versus the 80's one? They probably did. Do you think they care now?

There are clear differences between them but I understand your meaning.
These days designs can wildly differ and there is room to do some unique things with stadium designs.
The seating and staircases will always be very similar as there's only so many ways you can get so many seats in.

Of all of the above, I think Saints has the best energy for a single tiered bowl. It has a well maintained, Wimbledon tennis-like quality to it.

 

[Plant0x84]

If you put all four in black and white, removed any hint of branding or seat pattern and told a non-football fan to tell you which one was Old Trafford they wouldn't have a fecking clue.

Don’t agree. They have similar layout yes, and design language but they are still distinctive. And OT is more distinct again. Nothing to do with sentimentality, it’s just an iconic stadium.

And I don’t think a non football fan would have a clue anyway, slightly odd to suggest otherwise.

 

[Plant0x84]

The surrounding area is being updated though, so not sure how the current aesthetic would fit in.

I don’t expect every building in the area to be clad with metallic panels or lit up like a Christmas tree with projections and leds though. The stadium needs to retain some heritage.

 

[Spoony]

I don’t expect every building in the area to be clad with metallic panels or lit up like a Christmas tree with projections and leds though. The stadium needs to retain some heritage.

No one's mentioned metallic panels and what not. But I doubt the new stadium will look like Victoria Warehouse. Suppose if we want a nod to the past then they could incorporate elements of OT that are iconic. That said it's changed so many times. A new version of the old Stretford End would be interesting but it'll probably look contrived. For me Old Trafford has always been a bowl( they messed that up didn't they....) the new place has to continue this but without looking generic.

 

[stevoc]

So you're talking about a century worth of memories giving it a soul yes? Not the design?

Because give it 20-30 years of memories in the new ground and it won't be soulless.

The Emirates is getting on 20 years old. And a lot of people even some Arsenal fans still think of the place as soulless. Same with Wembley, so perhaps just the passing of time doesn't imbibe a soul into a stadium.

I used it as an example because design wise in 1993/4 Old Trafford was exactly what you describe, a soulless bowl. It was the prototype for all of the subsequent one-tiered, bowl shaped stadiums around the country that were decried as being 'soulless bowls' when they replaced archaic old grounds - think Middlesbrough, Derby, Sunderland, Southampton, Leicester, etc. The additions that give it a bit of 'character' are built on that one tiered bowl and are a mess, aesthetically speaking. Old Trafford is a magical place but architecturally it's awful. We just love it because we're United fans.

The team, the players, the days and nights of great matches, the atmosphere, etc, that's what gives a stadium it's soul. That's what you're talking about when you mention the soul. It's not the building, it's the things that happen in it.

I'm 100% sure in 1910, when Old Trafford was built, and was a bowl shaped shiny new thing, as below, those early United fans also called it a soulless bowl replacing Bank Street.

There's zero reason a new ground can't have 'soul', it just takes time to build. We can have a world class venue that suits everybody and provides an amazing space for the players to do what they do best. We're supposed to be the biggest club in the world, we need the best stadium around.

Soulless to most people means a combination of any/or, no history, no atmosphere, sterile, etc everything that Old Trafford was not circa 1994. You can walk into OT even when it's empty and the place still has an aura and an atmosphere.

Yes OT is 'ugly' and that's part of the reason why it's so loved. It's iconic, one of the most instantly recognisable stadiums on the planet, it's grown with the club, over a century of blood sweat and tears built it into what it is today. Now there are good reasons to build a new stadium and good arguments to be made why demolishing OT might be beneficial to the club and personally I think it will be demolished.

But allow me 2 points.

1, Let's not kids ourselves that any new stadium will ever replicate what we currently have with Old Trafford in terms of history, aura and atmosphere. And once that's gone, it's gone. The stadium's probably one of the oldest still in use today and certainly one of the oldest in world football still on the same site.

2, You can describe Old Trafford as many, many things but soulless is not one of them mate. That's just wrong.

 

[Spoony]

The Emirates is getting on 20 years old. And a lot of people even some Arsenal fans still think of the place as soulless. Same with Wembley, so perhaps just the passing of time doesn't imbibe a soul into a stadium.



Soulless to most people means a combination of any/or, no history, no atmosphere, sterile, etc everything that Old Trafford was not circa 1994. You can walk into OT even when it's empty and the place still has an aura and an atmosphere.

Yes OT is 'ugly' and that's part of the reason why it's so loved. It's iconic, one of the most instantly recognisable stadiums on the planet, it's grown with the club, over a century of blood sweat and tears built it into what it is today. Now there are good reasons to build a new stadium and good arguments to be made why demolishing OT might be beneficial to the club and personally I think it will be demolished.

But allow me 2 points.

1, Let's not kids ourselves that any new stadium will ever replicate what we currently have with Old Trafford in terms of history, aura and atmosphere. The stadiums probably one of the oldest still in use today and certainly one of the oldest in world football still on the same site.

2, You can describe Old Trafford as many, many things but soulless is not one of them mate. That's just wrong.

I think @matherto means the shape, a few stadia copied OT circa 94 back in the 90s and they all looked generic. I suspect everyone's got a different interpretation of soulless. I don't like Wembley, Emirates...even Fosters Lusail stadium but I think Spurs's new gaff is great.

 

[matherto]

You can describe Old Trafford as many, many things but soulless is not one of them mate. That's just wrong.

It's really not. In 1994 it was four new stands built. They weren't the same stands from 1910, nor the rebuild after the war, nor when Busby managed and Babes played there, nor when the Trinity did. Ship of Theseus/Trigger's broom stuff, it's not the same ground, despite being on the same spot, that's just logic. Our sentiments make it different for us because we're diehard United fans. It's just emotion not grounded in fact.

It was a one tiered fully enclosed bowl, exactly the same as the other one tiered fully enclosed bowls that came after it. The building itself was soulless.

You're completely and utterly blinkered by your United fandom if you think otherwise. This soul is intagible and it means different things to different people but you have to admit it's about the memories, the matches, the moments, the players, the fans and the managers. It's not about the building in the slightest.

No non-United fan would describe that new bowl in 1994 as anything else.

You mention that Arsenal fans think the Emirates is soulless now. Give them a few titles and see how they feel. They've won the square root of feck all since they moved there, their trophy wins have been at Wembley, no wonder they think it's soulless because they've not done anything memorable in it. If we had done feck all in OT for 114 years we'd probably feel similar for a good chunk of that time, then it'd evolve because over time it grows.

And new Wembley has soul. There have been countless memorable moments since it opened, for United and otherwise. It doesn't have the same soul as old Wembley but that's purely down to time. Let it stand there as long as the old ground did and see if it has less soul.

Sentimentality has no place in the modern game. Arguably it's never had a place. We should never look back because otherwise we get left behind. Right now we're a giant living on past memories and it's damaged us for over a decade whilst football has become unrecognisable ever since. We need to move forward and that means a new stadium with hundreds of thousands of fans and players and managers and victories and losses and all the rest contributing to the 'soul'.

 

[Florida Man]

Dunkin Donuts Arena

The *Cheesecake Factory*