And if Moyes was at OT for a season and won the League do you not think he would then have a profile of his own? He will already have much more of a profile internationally than you give him credit for as Everton are one of the best known clubs from England outside of the obvious ones. All the top players in the world can't play for Mourinho and Guardiola, surely there will be a few left over for us too?
Moyes To Succeed Ferguson Anyone?
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And if Moyes was at OT for a season and won the League do you not think he would then have a profile of his own? He will already have much more of a profile internationally than you give him credit for as Everton are one of the best known clubs from England outside of the obvious ones. All the top players in the world can't play for Mourinho and Guardiola, surely there will be a few left over for us too?
Left over players the top clubs don't want for a left over manager the top clubs don't want. I can't begin to imagine why you see this future as desirable.
what if he also won the quadruple? that's a ridiculous argument. Moyes is a second tier manager, there's nowt wrong with that and in a different time I reckon he would do a decent job for us, but in this day and age of win at all costs football i just don't see us going for a second tier manager.
Salary. Prospect of winning things. I think those two factors are higher for most players than specifics about the manager. Based on not much.
Do we want players who only come to the club to play under Mourinho? It'd be okay short term, but such an attitude in the players would only create issues three seasons later when Mourinho quits the job to go manage Dortmund or Munich. Clubs struggle when Mourinho abandons them; mercenaries have a tendency towards underachieving when their prophet fecks off to pastures new. As has been mentioned before, Jose can certainly build a decent team, but he never sticks around long enough to rebuild when necessary; he's the master of the short term project; is that what we want our club to become?
Barcelona was Guardiola's first job in management, pretty huge considering who he is and what he represents to the club. The guy is a visonary and he did amazing things there. He is 40 years old and at the beginning of his managerial career. You say walking out is a black mark but he was on a one-year rolling contract throughout his tenure, so it was hardly unexpected.
The job was all-consuming for him, you only need to look at the deteriation in his physical appearance to see the effects that type of pressure had on him. Didn't do badly though did he?...13 trophies in 4 seasons and some of the finest football ever witnessed in Europe. If his health was suffering then he is right to take a break, I don't think it shows a lack of fight....just a realistic sense of perspective. In my view people should be looking at his undoubted achievements rather than the fact he left, the reasons for which are probably numerous and understandable.
With all due respect to Moyes, he is under nothing like that pressure at Everton. Until he is placed in a similar environment you cannot truly compare the two.
aye, to a point, but wouldn't having the holy trinity of Salary, prospect of winning things and playing under a world class manager be a much more attractive proposition?
So, bar the manager it's different from now how? How many of the worlds top players have chosen to come to us in the past few years? Every single time we're rumoured to be in for a top top player we miss out to one of the other clubs who are willing to pay more money. Not because of who is managing them. Do you think Hazard went to Chelsea because of DiMatteo? Did Mourinho have any great influence on Ronaldo's childhood dream to play for Madrid? Where are these top top players that we are signing??
Now look at it rationally the only really top cream of the crop players we have signed in recent years are RVP, Rio and Rooney. All three of them have been signed from within the Prem and all three would still have come if someone like Moyes was in-charge as they would know and respect him, they were coming for a lot more money and the draw of United.
Having a Mourinho or a Guadiola won't turn North England into Sunny Spain and it won't turn 150k a week into 300k a week either. Money talks and Bullshit walks. You sir are bullshitting.
How is it a ridiculous argument? I'm hypothesising on the theory that a very capable manager could come into a ready made championship team build by the greatest manager of all time and win a League. TBF it's a very likely scenario that whom ever comes in will be given some resources to add to what SAF has built so it's likely that they will win at least a title.
I don't see him as a second tier manager. I see him as a top manager that's not had a chance at a top club, but I see loads in how he handles affairs at Everton to indicate that he's got enough about him to be an adequate successor to Fergie.
Not really. It's the one big question mark over him. If you were to give me a straight choice between him and Moyes though I definitely would 't be going for the latter. His former clubs struggles after be left can be attributed to the terrible managers those clubs chose to replace him with. The baulk of Mourinho's Chelsea squad went on to further success when they got a halfway competent manager.
just out of interest, lets look at evertons last five premiership final standings.
2012 -7th
2011 -7th
2010 -8th
2009 -5th
2008 -5th
i'm just not seeing how moyes can be considered a top manager, if anything he's gotten slightly worse over the last five years.
2012 -7th
2011 -7th
2010 -8th
2009 -5th
2008 -5th
i'm just not seeing how moyes can be considered a top manager, if anything he's gotten slightly worse over the last five years.
It's quite simple really why I want Moyes. I see him as someone who can come in and create a new legacy at United building on and having respect for the wonderful things that Fergie has has done before him. I see him as a very capable manager with a great eye for a signing, keeps a tight rein on the club, and controls every aspect of the club from top to bottom. He's shown he's there for the long haul and I think his premiership experience is much more important than European pedigree.
Mourinho comes to a club, wins titles and leaves again, often leaving te club in a worse state and with a worse reputation than when he got these albeit with more silverware. That's him MO and I don't see it changing.
Guardiola took over at his beloved Barcalona and did great things (although I've never been a fan of that style of football) he pretty much perfected it, but he had a big helping hand along the way from one of the most talented bunch of players assembled and quite possibly the greatest player of all time on the books. Still he deserves huge credit for the Barcalona project over the past few years. All that said, he still quit after a few seasons and while he was there made some stinkers in the transfer market.
I don't want a manager to come in and stay for only 3-4 years. I want another Ferguson. I know that's unrealistic, but I don't see why we should bring in someone that we know won't create a legacy over someone who might. Honestly, it may not be Moyes, but I don't want either Mourinho or Guardiola.
Mourinho comes to a club, wins titles and leaves again, often leaving te club in a worse state and with a worse reputation than when he got these albeit with more silverware. That's him MO and I don't see it changing.
Guardiola took over at his beloved Barcalona and did great things (although I've never been a fan of that style of football) he pretty much perfected it, but he had a big helping hand along the way from one of the most talented bunch of players assembled and quite possibly the greatest player of all time on the books. Still he deserves huge credit for the Barcalona project over the past few years. All that said, he still quit after a few seasons and while he was there made some stinkers in the transfer market.
I don't want a manager to come in and stay for only 3-4 years. I want another Ferguson. I know that's unrealistic, but I don't see why we should bring in someone that we know won't create a legacy over someone who might. Honestly, it may not be Moyes, but I don't want either Mourinho or Guardiola.
Or the competition has gotten better and the playing field isn't level. I couldn't be arsed going through the tables, but the money spent by clubs around Everton has gone up hugely while they have remained stagnant.
agreed, but i dont think any of us want that, this thing with mourinho not staying, yes he has a history of moving on but so did cantona before he came to us, who's to say what the future holds for anyone, yes, moyes may come in and win things, but he could just as easily be out of a job in six months, but on the other hand someone like mourinho might come in and win things and also stay for ten years, we just dont know.
Doesn't put things into context though, you now have City and chelsea with major investment, and Spurs, as well as United and Arsenal and then Liverpool who despite their low positions at times have still invested heavily. Everton can't really compete with that, even teams such as Newcastle and Fulham probably have more to spend. He's pretty much doing as well as he realistically could with Everton.
fair enough, but for me, if Moyes is such a top manager why have none of the top clubs come in for him over the last few years.
don't get me wrong, I'd have no problem with Moyes taking over and I understand the desire to try and have a Ferguson clone (as many seem to be infering about Moyes) but how many on here remember the amount of managers we had who had to live in the shadow of Busby and crumbled under that pressure, maybe Moyes is tough enough to do it his own way but one thing you can say about Mourinho is that he always does it his way.
Well how many of the top clubs have had job available? Chelsea is a circus and purely on abromovics liking, city went for Mancini, wenger is probably doing exactly what the board want at arsenal, moyes could never go to Liverpool so there's not much else. There were rumours he was in for the Spurs job, we really can't say if he has or hasn't been approached by the likes if spurs before. But either way he's shown qualities to suggest that with the right resources there's no reason he couldn't succeed.
Like I've said before I'm not saying moyes should be first choice, if mourinho wanted the job then he'd have to be the front runner but moyes for me is the stand out candidate from Britain, has done very well with his Everton side and there's nothing to suggest he couldn't keep us challenging in the league nor would be a disaster in Europe and imo should and I expect will be in contention for the job.
Like I've said before I'm not saying moyes should be first choice, if mourinho wanted the job then he'd have to be the front runner but moyes for me is the stand out candidate from Britain, has done very well with his Everton side and there's nothing to suggest he couldn't keep us challenging in the league nor would be a disaster in Europe and imo should and I expect will be in contention for the job.
my third and final problem with Moyes is the unknown factor, he has never been in contention to win anything bar the odd cup, could he inspire a team over the final hurdle of the last few months of a season?
are there just too many unknowns with him? I don't know.
are there just too many unknowns with him? I don't know.
I don't think the situation is the same really. Busby left the place with a squad in disarray and if what we're told is true undermined the new managers regularly.
Wilf McGuiness should never have been given the job and was completely under experienced. He had no first team managerial experience as opposed to Moyes who has 13/14 odd years.
Frank O'farrell got the job on the back of some lower league experience and an FA cup final defeat and promotion to division 1 with Leicester, hardly the best credentials.
Docherty came in with a similar amount of experience as what Moyes has albeit with a load of different clubs and was actually doing well untill his Mickey got hi in strife.
Sexton had similar experience to Docherty, but was less succesful. This would be the closest thing to a Moyes type manager who was a failure, but this was well after the Boss was gone from the scene so it's not that comparable really.
Excellent post Ash.
but this is kind of my point, we should have gone for the best, we didn't, we went for second tier managers, yes, we were a club in a temporary decline but even so there were better managers out there. (please don't ask me to name them
)but this is kind of my point, we should have gone for the best, we didn't, we went for second tier managers, yes, we were a club in a temporary decline but even so there were better managers out there. (please don't ask me to name them
Wilf and Frank were miles off the calibre of manager that Moyes is now when they got the job. Of course there's a major difference now in that a foreign manager would be considered so the market is much wider, but as Ash says, in terms of British domestically based managers Moyes is the No.1 candidate and IMO the only candidate.*
*In Britain at the moment.
Players who sign for us do it because they're confident they'll be able to win things with us, due largely to Ferguson's reputation of winning a lot of trophies. If Moyes is in charge, a man with no record of winning anything, they won't have as much confidence they'll win things, and I'd be surprised if we could convince another Berbatov or van Persie to turn down Manchester City offering larger wages to sign for us. With Mourinho, there are no doubts, he has been even more successful than Ferguson over the period of his career.
I see no reason to assume those players would respect Moyes. Indeed Rooney and Moyes had a long feud (now resolved) over how much Rooney criticised Moyes, with Moyes winning money for damages to his "professional and personal reputation". Climate and money are a factor, but so is the manager you'll be working under - if you don't believe that I think you have a screw loose.
The Chelsea job has been available loads of times, the City job has been available and City rightly chose Mancini, the Liverpool job has been available twice and there's no reason he couldn't take that, the Spurs job has been available several times, the Milan job has been available several times, Real Madrid constantly change their manager, Inter have changed manager at 5 times since 2008, Juventus have changed manager a lot, Bayern Munich have changed manager 5 times since 2008, there has been no lack of top positions available, at home or abroad, he's either not interested in applying for them or they're not interested in having him.
Of course we can't really compare that situation with the present but as I stated above, for me there are just too many unknowns with moyes and I'm not sure he would be the clubs first choice (that's not to say he won't be chosen though)
They are largely confident that we win things. We will continue to win things regardless of who is manager, just with different frequency. I feel that RvP would stiil have come to United as would Rio. All major signings from other countries have snubbed us even with the great SAF at the helm and we do OK so I wouldn't concern myself too much. Rooney's issues with Moyes were are a result of Rooney being a dick in a book and writing needlessly inflammatory comments. The two now have a good relationship. The money issue that you state as almost an insult he donated to the Everton ex players fund. This leads me to believe he was iin the right and honestly if it was reversed and it was Fergie would he sit back and let a player write shit about him?
Also, your analysis of the types of jobs available to Moyes just shows how outrageous you are prepared to go with your points and really you should re read them and have a wee look at yourself.
Chelsea and City are both on the 'foreign managers with fancy names' that have the European experience trip. Both clubs wouldn't dream of hiring a grumpy cantankerous scot as he's not 'sexy' enough for there fantasy football laying owners. Mancini you are making out to be a great manager or one who should be credited. IMO he's had a mare since coming to City with unlimited funds they only won the title on goal difference against a pretty poor United and have gone out of Europe twice before xmas. Now they are 6 points behind us already and its largely due to Mancini and his dumb decisions.
Really?? Cop on!Not much of a move up really, more a lateral change and would be as pointless as a move to Newcastle IMO who you didn't mention. What about Villa?
Why are you bringing the European clubs into this? Get real man, how many British Managers have ever gone to top European clubs? Name them for me? You use that as another thing to beat Moyes with, but its meaningless.
John Toshack, Bobby Robson, Terry Venables.
venables, robson...if moyes wanted to he could've put his name out there but he's too comfortable at everton.
barca was interested in fergie as well IIRC.
So we're going to have a worse manager (I assume you accept Moyes is worse than Ferguson) and potentially worse players. If we have a worse manager we are going to need to sign better players to offset that, I don't see any reason people would rather play for Moyes than Ferguson, in fact the opposite is likely true.
I don't mean the money issue as an insult, I don't know the details of what went on between them. I don't know why you think all Premier League players would automatically respect him.
Di Matteo had no European experience when he took the job, and if you really think a Russian with an American Chairman and a slew of "advisors" from across the continent selects managers on the grounds of how "fancy" their names sound to English people then it's you who needs to have a look at yourself. Mancini won the FA Cup and League title, he went out in the CL in extremely difficult groups, sure, but there's nothing whatsoever to suggest Moyes would have done better.
Your attachment of being "sexy" to particular managers is something I don't really understand. Could you tell me which managers you find "sexy" and which you don't, or how you attach this value to certain managers? As far as I can see it's just a weird excuse for certain managers never getting jobs, I've certainly never heard anyone refer to Avram Grant or Rafael Benitez as "sexy" but they've both been given the Chelsea job while Moyes hasn't.
Yes. That job was a big opportunity for an ambitious manager to take on, to build the club back up from a low ebb and he was nowhere to be seen.
Spurs have a lot more resources than Everton. If he is an overachiever worthy of Manchester United he could finally qualify for the Champions League for the first time in his career, like Redknapp did. And yeah, those other jobs have come up, again, he'd probably have a bit more money to play with there, but maybe his ambition to actually succeed as a manager doesn't compete with his bank manager's ambitions.
First of all why the hell shouldn't he go abroad? If the top English sides are overlooking him for some strange reason, why not go to a top foreign side? Maybe he will be "exotic" or "sexy" to them, certainly managers like Mourinho, Mancini, Capello, Hiddink et al had no problems leaving their home country to get bigger jobs elsewhere.
As for British managers who've gone to top European clubs, Roy Hodgson and John Toshack have had two spells as manager of Inter Milan and Real Madrid respectively, Terry Venables was in charge at Barcelona (hence his nickname of "El Tel"), as was Bobby Robson, who also managed Porto, Sporting CP and PSV Eindhoven. Steve McClaren lead FC Twente to a cup double in the Netherlands and managed Wolfsburg in the Bundesliga.
I think you're way off the mark with all of this.
+ are you from England? You are aware of the fierce city rivalry between Everton and Liverpool? Or are you just completely and utterly, well, stupid?
Moyes not extending could mean he's off to manage a bigger club like Chelsea or perhaps try his luck abroad. In either case, the likes of Mourinho, Guardiola, and the other legitimate contenders to manage United would probably break their respective contracts (assuming they're under one at the time) to manage United.
Of course I'm aware of the rivalry, but how many people put their careers on the line to make sure they don't hurt people's feelings?
How many managers leave a club they have managed for over a decade, who they have an incredible bond and sure legacy with to move across the road to a shit stained joke of a club in the same City surrounded by your old fans 24/7? Are you serious?
None spring to mind.
Why would he ruin everything he has done - which is an astronomical amount - at Everton to do that, not to mention being the City in question Liverpool, he'd probably end up face down in the Mersey.
Sorry but that's just plain resiculous.
If Moyes is such quality as some have suggested in this thread, why wasn't he picked up by a bigger club ? World class managers are highly sought after in football these days and there are a good number of clubs in the big four leagues who would have surely been breaking the door down to get to Moyes. The likes of Spurs, Bayern, Madrid, Inter, Juventus would have surely lured him away if his alleged quality was so overwhelmingly convincing. The fact that they didn't suggests there's a gap in the argument that Moyes is qualified to be United boss.
I don't think they would complain with a
1. historical EC cup win in an era where portugal teams are considered cannon fodder
2. Inter's first EC cup in so many years, and among the elites who has done the treble
3. Chelsea first actually winning the cup after Roman, instilling that they are top dogs, and laid a foundation of belief for years after. That 2 win is crucial, it shows that they can compete and up there mentally
4. Real Madrid - Double against the mighty barca?
Yup. Bad reputation
Of course none spring to mind, most managers don't stay at clubs for that long. There are managers who go to manage rival teams though, Harry Redknapp is one (he did it twice, survived), George Graham was in charge of Arsenal for 9 years then, after a brief interlude, went off to become the boss of Spurs.
I don't see why we should restrict it to managers either, players sometimes build up strong legacies at particular clubs and piss them away to go to rivals, Sol Campbell moved from Spurs to Arsenal, Barmby went from Everton to Liverpool, Tevez left us to join City, Michael Owen was one of Liverpool's greatest ever players and he moved to United, loyalty means nothing in football these days.
While we're on the subject of legacies, Moyes' legacy at Everton if he quit tomorrow would be feck all. this is a club that's been Champions of England 9 times and has won the FA Cup 5 times and has European silverware to its name, do you really think that in 20 years time they're going to remember the guy who stewarded them through a barren period in mid-table? The history books will judge him a lot more harshly than his most vocal critics on here do. Next to his honours list which reads
FA Cup Runner Up: 2010
it won't say "But he had really low net spend!"
which will be unfair, because he's a pretty good manager. Just not one who has the requisite quality to manage a big club, and he wouldn't be sacrificing much of a legacy if he left Everton to join Liverpool.
As I already pointed out no viable jobs in England have come up that he would have got a crack at, unless you agree with kie that he should have taken the Liverpool jobs.
Very few British managers have ever gone overseas to manage at top clubs. Maybe 5 or 6 in my mind. I don't know is that a cultural thing in that British managers are not held in very high regard in Europe or a language barrier or maybe British managers value being at home more. I wouldn't hold not going abroad against him.
Oh do read all of a post sky before you reply. I accept time and time again that he's a very successful manager and pretty much guarantees you silverware. I value my club more than a few pots to be honest, and certainly more than a few players who would come to United because of a manager rather than the institution itself.
As I already pointed out no viable jobs in England have come up that he would have got a crack at, unless you agree with kie that he should have taken the Liverpool jobs.
Very few British managers have ever gone overseas to manage at top clubs. Maybe 5 or 6 in my mind. I don't know is that a cultural thing in that British managers are not held in very high regard in Europe or a language barrier or maybe British managers value being at home more. I wouldn't hold not going abroad against him.
Could you explain again why you think managers like Avram Grant and Rafael Benitez are sexy but David Moyes is not?
As I already pointed out no viable jobs in England have come up that he would have got a crack at, unless you agree with kie that he should have taken the Liverpool jobs.
Very few British managers have ever gone overseas to manage at top clubs. Maybe 5 or 6 in my mind. I don't know is that a cultural thing in that British managers are not held in very high regard in Europe or a language barrier or maybe British managers value being at home more. I wouldn't hold not going abroad against him.
Even if one were to cast aside Liverpool; Spurs, Chelsea, City, and Newcastle have all had openings on multiple occasions over the past decade and would've been a step up from Everton. If Moyes was such quality, surely some of the owners, whether they were Sugardaddy owners or not, would have been aggressively pursuing him. Not a pin drop from anyone, and yet suddenly he's flamboyantly qualified to manage Manchester United. Its simply a weak argument.
He's a long term manager. Chelsea and City have just jumped all over Europe for the latest cup winner. That's the reason they haven't been in for Moyes, they want instant success with managers that have come off the back of romantic cup and league wins, Moyes dusnt have any silverware.
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