Anyone hired after Fergie is going to be a risk in whatever form; not going to stay for long, what's he going to do with the youth setup, will he play the United way?, how will handle to big games? Etc. my point is why should one risk be greater than another when we're basically approaching the unknown anyway? I wasn't comparing their management records. I know Moyes is more experienced in league management. The question is longevity and my point was if people are looking at Moyes then we should at least look at Ole as well, at least he knows the club and its principles.
Moyes To Succeed Ferguson Anyone?
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Anyone hired after Fergie is going to be a risk in whatever form; not going to stay for long, what's he going to do with the youth setup, will he play the United way?, how will handle to big games? Etc. my point is why should one risk be greater than another when we're basically approaching the unknown anyway? I wasn't comparing their management records. I know Moyes is more experienced in league management. The question is longevity and my point was if people are looking at Moyes then we should at least look at Ole as well, at least he knows the club and its principles.
Managerial continuity isn't the only way to win at football. Chelsea-style isn't the only other way to go. Porto has constantly maintained a policy of renovation amidst his managers whilst almost always maintaining the level. We have a solid winning structure at every level, and the coach is just another piece that slots in. Regardless of his own qualities, he is often more likely to succeed here than elsewhere.
You can't expect the next manager to replicate what Sir Alex Ferguson has done so well, particularly in terms of long term planning, and a very broad level of control in most decisions at the club. In almost every other place, the manager has a much narrow role, with long term policy decisions being made by the higher echelons of the club. This is not necessary when you have someone has competent as Sir Alex Ferguson driving the club, but to give that kind of power to a new manager, when the former took a long time to conquer it, would be a bit risky in my opinion.
I think you need to lower your expectations from whoever is coming next. Not in terms of titles, as I think United has all the resources and strength necessary to keep on winning a big number of trophies, but in terms of his ability to ultimately be responsible for almost every important aspect on the running of the club.
But, if you want to maintain that continuity...
By choosing Moyes over Mourinho, you're kind of choosing the former (very debatable) bigger likelihood of committing to a long term project and emulating SAF capability to run the club in a broader perspective, over the later efficiency at gathering trophies and getting the best out of his (top) teams. The thing is, SAF has both these qualities. If you could only keep one of them which would you chose? And, on top of that, is it less speculative to think that Moyes can become a regular trophy-winning manger at one of the biggest club in the world than it is to suggest that Mourinho might actually be interested in developing a long-term project for the first time in his career, on the country he has undoubtedly mostly enjoyed working, on the most reputable club of that country (something very important for him, without a doubt), and trying to emulate one of the managers he most respects and admires?
Both are bold assumptions, but I don't think the second one is any more speculative than the first.
You can't expect the next manager to replicate what Sir Alex Ferguson has done so well, particularly in terms of long term planning, and a very broad level of control in most decisions at the club. In almost every other place, the manager has a much narrow role, with long term policy decisions being made by the higher echelons of the club. This is not necessary when you have someone has competent as Sir Alex Ferguson driving the club, but to give that kind of power to a new manager, when the former took a long time to conquer it, would be a bit risky in my opinion.
I think you need to lower your expectations from whoever is coming next. Not in terms of titles, as I think United has all the resources and strength necessary to keep on winning a big number of trophies, but in terms of his ability to ultimately be responsible for almost every important aspect on the running of the club.
But, if you want to maintain that continuity...
By choosing Moyes over Mourinho, you're kind of choosing the former (very debatable) bigger likelihood of committing to a long term project and emulating SAF capability to run the club in a broader perspective, over the later efficiency at gathering trophies and getting the best out of his (top) teams. The thing is, SAF has both these qualities. If you could only keep one of them which would you chose? And, on top of that, is it less speculative to think that Moyes can become a regular trophy-winning manger at one of the biggest club in the world than it is to suggest that Mourinho might actually be interested in developing a long-term project for the first time in his career, on the country he has undoubtedly mostly enjoyed working, on the most reputable club of that country (something very important for him, without a doubt), and trying to emulate one of the managers he most respects and admires?
Both are bold assumptions, but I don't think the second one is any more speculative than the first.
Another great post. You're on a roll here.
That bit in bold will be a big change and I think the next manager will have much less control in the same way SAF did.
Sir Alex has done the job usually delegated to 5 or 6 men for 20+ years. It's madness and I think the biggest push will be for the next manager to keep us at the top.
I'd rather put the Fergie statue in charge than David Moyes.
Managerial continuity is a positive quality, and it's entirely right to look for that in a new candidate - as long as you're not expecting 25+ years of continuity. It's not unreasonable to hope any United manager will be there 5-7 years at least.
Also, it's risky comparing different countries / cultures. In Portugal is it more usual to have a coach rather than a manager? Are 2-3 year appointments the norm? United just isn't a club for that sort of arrangement, and whether it's right or wrong it's embedded in the fabric of the club. The Glazers might have different ideas going forward of course....
Also, it's risky comparing different countries / cultures. In Portugal is it more usual to have a coach rather than a manager? Are 2-3 year appointments the norm? United just isn't a club for that sort of arrangement, and whether it's right or wrong it's embedded in the fabric of the club. The Glazers might have different ideas going forward of course....
Definitely, but then I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that Mourinho would stay 5-10 years at United, for many reasons already discussed in several threads.
In Portugal, particularly in Porto, we only have coaches, not managers. Obviously the coach makes suggestions (and in exceptional cases decisions) to the board on what he needs to improve the team, but ultimately it's the board that decides which signings are to be made, and which players are to be sold. It kind of comes hand-in-hand with the rotational nature of the role. It would be daft to leave someone who's probably going to stay here for two or three years making decisions that will impact the club for much longer than that, such as €10m+ signings and the like.
Obviously there are a lot of people that know a lot about football running the club. If it was just a bunch of financial brains it wouldn't work.
And thanks, Plato.
Agreed with the bit in bold, I wasn't trying to make any kind of point about Mourinho, more about the necessity of managerial continuity at United
Guardiola manager, Ole second. Enough said.
Is nobody bothered that Guardiala left Baca because of the pressure? We're talking about replacing Alex Ferguson here, whoever does it will be under the microscope like never before.
Def, I mentioned that in the Pep or Jose thread.
It's already been discussed before. Doing what he did at Barca was incredible and he did it while coming under enormous amount of pressure. This was especially the case after his initial triumphs. The pressures aren't necessarily the same either. Guardiola has no sentimental ties to Manchester. It's not the same as managing Barca after being part of a setup for some years.
Simply a different kettle of fish. There's pressure in any managerial situation and what Pep underwent was a lot. Tabloids here can be pretty bad at times but it's nothing like over there. You make it sound as if Pep will jump at the first sign of trouble just because of the pressure. The man got burnt out. The change in his facial features and hair is an indication of that.
I would rather hear from a Barca fan to capture the story better than I can. If we're going to talk about Pep's stint at Barca, let's be complete about it. I'm fairly sure he didn't leave solely because of the pressure.
You can see why it's a concern tho. Succeeding SAF will be a massive challenge. Big pressure.
I'm just a bit surprised we're talking about it as if it's solely because of pressure. There was an article talking about Pep hinting at not staying partially because he felt what more was there to accomplish. If people are concerned about Pep in that aspect, I would understand it. We should question his longevity.
Sounds like you're looking for excuses for Pep to me. I'm almost certain that was the reason he left, he may have even said it himself.
Wasn't he 'burnt out' and in need of recharging his batteries despite having the best team in the world to manage? 'Four years is an eternity as coach of Barca. Time wears everything down, I feel drained and I need to replenish'.
Fair point. He definitely talked about the pressure but there could be other factors. As you said, whatever it was he still walked out on Barca. So it'd always be on the back of your mind he would do the same to us.
The bottom line is there's a high chance whoever it is will only last a few seasons. There's nothing that can be done about that really, I don't think there's any candidate we can be sure will be long term. Just a question of whether it will be because they're pushed by poor results, or jump because they want a new challenge.
These conversations always lead back to Mourinho for me. I think I've said before, it's not that I want him, I have reservations I won't go into again. But he does seem to tick the most boxes. By miles.
No you're just being bullish. If you're so certain, then I'm sure you can find more than one article which indicates it was ONLY because of pressure.
Mhm. Fair points as well. Again, I do think it is important to mark the distinction between the pressure Fergie has faced while at United versus what Pep underwent at Barca. There are definitely similarities but I do think the differences are just as relevant. For instance, Barca is one of the few clubs with fan ownership. There are more politics over there which can affect how a manager goes about his job as we've seen with relationships between club presidents and managers. I can't capture the Catalan story as well as a Barca fan could but I think it's another factor which led to him being so drained.
I think whichever club he goes, he won't necessarily face similar pressures as he did at Barca. The main question asked of him is if he can handle this new challenge and more specifically taking over from SAF. Much of that has to do with maintaining our club status which goes along with challenging for honors and winning a few trophies along the way. If we're talking about Pep bowing out due to pressure, what kind of pressure are we talking about? Pressure from the media? Pressure from within? Pressure from Rosell? Pressure of the job itself? Pressure of maintaining Barca's status? This is what I've been trying to understand. I don't quite see how it boils down to one factor, but if I'm missing something, please point it out.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't raise questions regarding Pep but more so questions which are more relevant to our situation.
Guardiola left because he wanted a year off, nothing wrong with that. He's safe financially for the rest of his life and he was understandably tired after 4 years of non stop football. He was obsessed with his job apparently, spending hours upon hours in his office or at the training ground, kind of a workaholic for that period of 4 years. He burnt out, it's entirely plausible. He might never be a good long term manager but if he manages to bring what he brought to Barcelona in terms of style somewhere else, he'd be an amazing acquisiton for anyone. The effect of his work will last way past his tenure at Barcelona and you can already see that, the philosophy will be there on top of two European Cups and virtually establishing them as world's best side.
Wasn't a big issue for Pep based off transfer control and the Presidency system?
Great post Arruda, the next manager needs to be appointed on their resume' IMO as once in the chair we don't know for sure how things will go, how they'll acclimate to the club and structure and how invested emotionally they will become, so just hire the best manager we can and proceed from there.
Great post Arruda, the next manager needs to be appointed on their resume' IMO as once in the chair we don't know for sure how things will go, how they'll acclimate to the club and structure and how invested emotionally they will become, so just hire the best manager we can and proceed from there.
The feck are you on about? I’ve no doubt I know far more about it that you.
Why are you just naming games that Macheda has played in, is that supposed to be a good point? Because it is completely retarded. Seriously, what is the relevance? You seem to be suggesting that Mourinho is right to neglect youth players because Macheda never built upon his goal against Villa.
If you had any sort of perspective about United you would know our youth policy has reaped outstanding benefits, either from players brought through the under 18’s or from purchased youngsters that are developed and introduced to the first team. But you are ignoring that because Macheda had a bad loan spell in Sampdoria? Makes sense...
My point has been that Mourinho is awful at bringing through young players, it’s not remotely complicated. Rather than act the retard with your little post sucking off MJJ because he says something you agree with, why don’t you actually say something of merit the way Amir, Sarni, Comsmit etc did. You seem like a really pointless poster.
Anyway, I’ve quoted you in this so you can reply. You obviously know a lot about it so it should be a good response.
He has been criticised because the press and fans expect more results from the Cantera. I never said that the problem started with him but unlike most coaches he has been in the job for a significant period of time, so is in a position to utilise youth products and look to development. If you have followed Madrid then will be aware that isn’t the same for previous managers.
The 9 managers prior to Mourinho averaged less than 40 games, whereas he has already been in the job for over triple that amount. Yet you are comparing his failure to coaches who were never realistically in a position to look to the youth team. Hence the criticism aimed at him is higher than Pelligrini who was there for one season.
This is also a period when Barcelona are reaping the rewards from La Masia with the core of their first 11 coming from that source, so the scrutiny on Mourinho to do the same with the Castilla has never been higher. Especially when it has produced great players that have left the club in a way that doesn’t happen at Barcelona, Juan Mata, Soldado, Negredo for example, or Garcia who has now been capped by Spain. Unless something changes then the same thing will happen with the current youth players. Sergio Canales has left, would Pep have done that at Barcelona?
How about Carvajal the Castilla captain, he never got any sign of first team football so has just left to Leverkusen. Or Joselu the Castilla Leading Goalscorer for the past two seasons, he has just left to Hoffenheim. You don’t see the issue?
I am not seeing the relevance to Morata scoring the winner and Macheda. Like Godfather you seem to be dismissing the benefits of giving youth a chance because Macheda probably wont make it. It’s a really shit opinion. Should managers not give young players a chance on the basis that they might not turn out good enough? Seriously, thank feck Ferguson doesn’t think like you. For a United supporter it’s embarassing to think that way.
No one knows if Morata will make it, he might end up not being good enough a la Macheda, or he might be the next Raul for Madrid. When Ferguson gives youngsters such as Welbeck, Cleverley, Smalling, Jones and Rafael a shot he doesn’t know that they will make it, but he takes the chance because it’s necessary to build a sustainable football club.
My point about Morata wasn’t that he is guaranteed to be a future star, just simply that he was given a chance with Higuain, Benzema and Ronaldo missing and he won Madrid the game. As Fergie said, ‘Young people can surprise you when given the opportunity.’
The pressure won't just be about getting results, it will come from bring compared to Sir Alex with every move. Substitutions, transfers, media approach and tactics will all be looked at by fans in comparison with Sir Alex. I'm sure even the players will be the same, some have worked solely with Sir Alex at club level for so long that a change in style could be immensely off-putting.
Trouble is, at Madrid they expect results immediately and Mourinho won't be there for long. Realistically in these past few seasons they have only produced players who have gone on to play for the likes of Espanyol, Getafe or Valencia but were never going to be good enough to meet the expectations of Madrid crowd.
It's a very difficult job in terms of building a side for the future because they always want you to set your mind short-term and deliver success rather than build a solid foundation for future. At Inter he was also expected to deliver the same way Mancini did, but the pressure wasn't as high so he took his chance with the likes of Santon and Balotelli. At Chelsea he needed instant success as well but he also managed to build a decent spine of that team that outlasted him, had be been given more time he might have started building a long term project.
What gets ignored is that he might not necessarily be reluctant to the idea of giving youngsters time. He might have simply had no choice.
It's a very difficult job in terms of building a side for the future because they always want you to set your mind short-term and deliver success rather than build a solid foundation for future. At Inter he was also expected to deliver the same way Mancini did, but the pressure wasn't as high so he took his chance with the likes of Santon and Balotelli. At Chelsea he needed instant success as well but he also managed to build a decent spine of that team that outlasted him, had be been given more time he might have started building a long term project.
What gets ignored is that he might not necessarily be reluctant to the idea of giving youngsters time. He might have simply had no choice.
two would be nice.
I accept Barca might have more pressure than United in itself. But following SAF is a different pressure again. Following a legend. People after Busby struggled too.
That's a good point. Mind you, we need instant gratification with success too. Fans are hardly going to react well to failure, a couple of seasons without a title and the daggers will be out. With us you hope the foundations are pretty solid anyway, but it all depends if he wants to continue what SAF was doing or change direction a bit.
I find it astonishing the way people use Guardiola's year off as some kind of criticism of him, as if he's shown some kind of unforgivable weakness, cracked under the pressure. If anything, he's shown just how sensible and long-sighted he is. He's very wealthy, with an untarnished managerial reputation, and has won everything with the same team for a few years. So he decided to take a year off to spend time with his family and friends, enjoy the life which he's earned the money to pay for, and generally keep himself both healthy and hungry. Now every big club in the world is just salivating over the chance to sign him up. Seems like it was a great decision to me.
And it wasn't some reaction to being outstripped by Real either, or sudden breakdown due to the pressure - he'd been planning it for almost a year, and has said that he'd always expected he'd take a break after a number of years. It was a calculated decision, and a good one. And he hardly left Barca high and dry did he? Yes, they lost to Madrid that season, but now they're back on top, still favourites for the CL, still playing some of the best football in Europe.
And it wasn't some reaction to being outstripped by Real either, or sudden breakdown due to the pressure - he'd been planning it for almost a year, and has said that he'd always expected he'd take a break after a number of years. It was a calculated decision, and a good one. And he hardly left Barca high and dry did he? Yes, they lost to Madrid that season, but now they're back on top, still favourites for the CL, still playing some of the best football in Europe.
However justifiable that option seems from a personal point of view, it's always worthy of reflection from a prospective club, particularly if that club is looking for a long-term manager, which is what most United fans seem to want. If rather than an insatiable lust for winning he's going to come up with an healthy desire to take a break every 3 or 4 years, then some people might not be interested.
I guess it depends on what the club wants. If the club is happy to accept that long-term managers era is gone and just wants the most effective coach possible than there's no reason to not consider him an option. But if you're looking for someone to stay 5+ years, no matter how many titles they win, it's perfectly reasonable to have doubts about him. It's not like what he's done is at all common in this sport, and all the reasons that prompted him to take that decision are likely to repeat themselves in the future.
I guess it depends on what the club wants. If the club is happy to accept that long-term managers era is gone and just wants the most effective coach possible than there's no reason to not consider him an option. But if you're looking for someone to stay 5+ years, no matter how many titles they win, it's perfectly reasonable to have doubts about him. It's not like what he's done is at all common in this sport, and all the reasons that prompted him to take that decision are likely to repeat themselves in the future.
That's also fair enough. But when I say he left Barca because of the pressure there is no judgement in that. It's just the implication that has for him, his priorities and his temperament, and what that might mean if he was our manager. I mean, fair play to him for doing it for the reasons you mentioned. But he has done it, he's more likely to do it again imo. And maybe that doesn't matter, as I said, I think it's quite possible the next manager will only be around for a few years whoever he is. If he can bring good football and success as he did, bring it on.
The other question mark is whether he could translate what he did at Barca to somewhere else. The jury is still out on that one though I suspect he'd be a great manager anywhere. Still, on that score Mourinho is a safer bet on paper I reckon.
The other question mark is whether he could translate what he did at Barca to somewhere else. The jury is still out on that one though I suspect he'd be a great manager anywhere. Still, on that score Mourinho is a safer bet on paper I reckon.
Yes, but the club are going to do a great deal of talking with any potential candidate before signing him up. If he plans to take a break after five years, and the club don't think that's something they can accept, then they won't sign him. But I don't think it's something fans should be worrying about when they're debating Guardiola vs. Mourinho.
As a contrasting example, Mourinho's tendency to fall out with his employers after a few years and leave the team to fall into an inevitable period of decline is something that the club can't be prepared for. It's a risk which comes with the manager, like it or not. He's hardly going to admit, at interview, that as soon as he doesn't have everything his way he's going to storm off.
EDIT: Responding to Arruda here.
As a contrasting example, Mourinho's tendency to fall out with his employers after a few years and leave the team to fall into an inevitable period of decline is something that the club can't be prepared for. It's a risk which comes with the manager, like it or not. He's hardly going to admit, at interview, that as soon as he doesn't have everything his way he's going to storm off.
EDIT: Responding to Arruda here.
We were making basically the same point anyway.
To be clear, if we appointed Pep I would dance a jig. I think he's my favourite option. I don't think the safest, but the most exciting. I'd love it.
I'm definitely curious as to what he'll do next. Quite a few question marks. He looked wonderful but Barcelona is a very specific environment. If he succeeds at another club (not asking for Barcelonesque football, just something pretty and effective) I'll be tremendously happy for him.
This, on the other hand, is a valid concern for the fans to have. I reckon it ultimately divides into two issues: 1) The footballing culture of Barca, and many of the key players, were already there when he got the job. 2) The manager job in most Spanish clubs is much more limited than in the PL, especially at United where Fergie has become increasingly the sole figure of authority. Mourinho, for example, has shown that he can handle that broader set of responsibilities, whereas Guardiola was always more of a first team coach, with Rosell etc to deal with transfers, money, and general management.
For me, neither would prove to be problems if we did get him. Regarding (1), I think we have actually quietly accrued a lot of players who would suit a more progressive, Guardiola-esque system, and that many of them are seriously underrated amongst both our own fans and others because they rarely get to play a style and system that genuinely suits them. Cleverley, in particular, would flourish under a manager like Guardiola. It's exactly what happened to Xavi, in a way: very tight, careful style in his younger years, but often accused of being unspectacular and not adventurous enough, especially during the national team's poor spell around the 2002 WC. But Pep's system brought the best out of him, and now he's one of the best players in the world. Rooney, Kagawa, Anderson, Nani, RVP: they'd all suit a short-passing, possession-dominating style of football. And our academy is booming at the moment, the number of real talents seeming to grow every year. The likes of Daehli and Pereira coming through under a manager like Guardiola would be :drool
As for (2), it depends on what you think Fergie is likely to do when he retires. If he steps away completely to let the new guy impose himself, that would clearly suit someone like Mourinho. Jose would never work with Fergie breathing down his neck all the time: like SAF himself, he needs complete autonomy. But if the club keeps Fergie around in an advisory role of some sort, it might well suit Pep. It would shield him from the shock of his introduction to English football, and allow the club to ease him into the greater responsibilities of an English manager, rather than expecting him to suddenly run everything Fergie runs at United... everything. Plus as a younger, less experienced manager, it would demonstrate to everyone - the players, the media, the fans - that he was completely mandated and supported, avoiding the inevitable 'Fergie would be doing it differently' brigade.
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That scenario sets alarm bells ringing. But I can see the appeal. It would be an intriguing situation.
I just looked in a crystal ball and this is what I saw
Pep to be City Boss next summer
Klopp to be next Chelsea Boss
Crystal ball got all cloudy then but I think I lastly saw Mourinho being unveiled by some club holding up a red shirt next summer......Not sure if it was a Stoke City or Utd shirt though
Pep to be City Boss next summer
Klopp to be next Chelsea Boss
Crystal ball got all cloudy then but I think I lastly saw Mourinho being unveiled by some club holding up a red shirt next summer......Not sure if it was a Stoke City or Utd shirt though
I think it's almost set in stone that Mourinho will be our next manager, it's pretty obvious it's the job in England that Jose want's and tbh I can't see how we can do better than him as replacement for Sir Alex, it helps his chances hugely as well that SAF is a fan of him too.
in the very unlikely event it's not Jose, then Moyes is still a long shot really, the board will want someone who has won things, Moyes has done a great job with Everton but they haven't really been anywhere close to United's level for decades now so it's not comparable and it would be a huge gamble for the club in that regard.
in the very unlikely event it's not Jose, then Moyes is still a long shot really, the board will want someone who has won things, Moyes has done a great job with Everton but they haven't really been anywhere close to United's level for decades now so it's not comparable and it would be a huge gamble for the club in that regard.
Mourinho could easily be tempted by the money and resources of City surely.
not really the same challenge for him though is it? replacing Sir Alex is a much bigger challenge football wise for him than just managing another team with shit tons of money (he did that with Chelski and to an extent with Madrid)
plus it's not like the money we could offer is that much less (despite what people will say, I think when it comes to the next manager we will offer what we have to), plus resources wise we arguably have more than City can dream of offering and it's all longer established here, in so many ways United is a much bigger job and a much bigger challenge for him, going to City for him is almost a step backwards, it's Chelski for him all over again, except this time without the same project he had at Chelski as City have already won things, there's nothing new or challenging for him there, replacing the greatest manager of all time at a club like United is a massive test for him and it's clear he is a huge admirer of Sir Alex, what better way to prove yourself against SAF than to replace him? it all points toward him wanting the United job imho, heck I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of unofficial deal has already been done for him to take it once SAF retires even.
I think we should go for Benitez. Give him a month then sack him. It would do so much for the web. If I was 12 years old.
I hold dear the Sexton era, the 77 cup final and I have happy memories of Atkinson in 83 and 85. Sounds shit doesn't it ?
I'm sure the new manager will divide us (the younger fans are spoiled and only know the Fergie good times) and they will be our problem.
Long term Manager continuity is something young United fans bang on about and take the piss out of other clubs having so many maagers in a short space of time but that's because they grew up lucky.
I'm sure half the young folk on here would have been calling for Fergies head 20 odd years ago.
Exciting times ahead but I feel the biggest issue will be with United fans that have never known the bad times.
I hold dear the Sexton era, the 77 cup final and I have happy memories of Atkinson in 83 and 85. Sounds shit doesn't it ?
I'm sure the new manager will divide us (the younger fans are spoiled and only know the Fergie good times) and they will be our problem.
Long term Manager continuity is something young United fans bang on about and take the piss out of other clubs having so many maagers in a short space of time but that's because they grew up lucky.
I'm sure half the young folk on here would have been calling for Fergies head 20 odd years ago.
Exciting times ahead but I feel the biggest issue will be with United fans that have never known the bad times.
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