By 'overlooked', do you mean 'mentioned numerous times since the thread has been bumped'?
Moyes To Succeed Ferguson Anyone?
- Thread starter BeardedGenius
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He can get that with experience and its hardly like the club is devoid of people who won't be able to advise him.
European football is not some big old mystery that can only be unlocked by a chosen few. We have a squad experienced enough in European football.
European experience is something which can be gained imo, something which a good manager should have no issues contending with, at least to the extent that it can be gained (which I don't believe is all that much). Everton's forays into UEFA Cup football shouldn't be held as the benchmark to Moyes' tactical awareness really, since the competition, to English clubs at least, is often viewed with about as much prestige as the League Cup, thus priorities invariably lie elsewhere.
Furthermore, I don't think there's any golden rule a manager can learn which makes him consistently successful in Europe, SAF himself has made countless mistakes there over the years; it is a cup competition afterall, one that by its very nature is unpredictable, varied and rapidly and constantly changing. Great managers repeatedly fail in European football whilst lesser managers oft succeed.
Previous European success need not imo be a prerequisite.
Furthermore, I don't think there's any golden rule a manager can learn which makes him consistently successful in Europe, SAF himself has made countless mistakes there over the years; it is a cup competition afterall, one that by its very nature is unpredictable, varied and rapidly and constantly changing. Great managers repeatedly fail in European football whilst lesser managers oft succeed.
Previous European success need not imo be a prerequisite.
My first choice would be Ole with Cantona,Giggs and Scholes involved in some ways. Second is Pep and since I don´t really care for Mourinho my third choice would be Joachim Loew.
I disagree. In an age where is it pretty much guaranteed that it isn't sustainable to want a long-term manager in place, we should try and make it sustainable. It will only benefit us in the long-term. And where you get clubs such as our domestic and European rivals changing managers every couple of years, you get inconsistency and doubt. We don't need that when Fergie retires.
Its a trend that is intensifying over time. Managers don't seem to stay with their clubs and because ownership and management structures are turning over more frequently. Whether we like it or not, the length of what constituties longevity of tenure is getting shorter and shorter. I would be happy with a manager who can stay on the job for 5-10 years with an excellent record of success. True, Moyes has had a few good years with Everton, but he's also finished 15th, 17th, and 11th, which often gets overlooked by those who are obsessed with his supposed immaculate credentials.
Yes, I agree. Where I don't agree is in what constitutes longevity in today's age of rapid turnover. Anyone who thinks our next manager will be around for a quarter century is being unrealistic. Five to ten years and we will be very lucky. That would put any number of managers in contention, and we should be selecting the best.
I think it looks like short-termism is in because of clubs like Chelsea and because of a move towards the manager as coach with a supporting infrastructure/DoF to handle transfers and other traditional aspects of the supremo-manager's job. Teams Liverpool and Spurs are looking, with the appointment of young managers, to build longevity, stability and continuity - I'd expect Man Utd and Arsenal to follow them over the next few years.
Who's obsessed with any supposed immaculate credentials? You seem to be arguing against an imaginary point of view to be honest.
In regard to the length of tenure of a manager, I don't see anybody suggesting that the prevalence of short term managerial 'projects' isn't on the increase, but nevertheless I'm yet to hear any football man assert that this trend works to the benefit of a football club, quite the opposite in fact. I'm baffled as to why you seem to think that United should follow this trend; you've given no explanation other than stating that it is a trend and waffling inexplicably about Mexican fans or something. Surely you don't think that just because a trend has developed then the best course of action regardless of circumstance would be to follow said trend? You're aware that trends can develop towards negative aspects as well as positive, right?
I dread us being dragged into this game once SAF is gone, as I have little doubt we will.
I doubt many teams / chairmen actually want to change their manager every five minutes (Abramovich excepted, I actually think he might quite enjoy changing things, like moving the furniture around in your living room or buying yourself a new coat). I expect most would agree with a lot of what you have said, in terms of stability bringing its rewards, the advantage of building the club up and continuity etc. I just reckon it takes a lot of balls to stick with something that appears, on the face of it, to be failing.
And do you have any doubt that we (fans) will be unbelievably impatient with any new manager who comes in, starts changing things and loses a load of games? We can all sit here and say we want a manager who will stick around for 10+ years, but when we are in that situation we will be thinking, yes, we want continuity, but we want good continuity. We dont want to lose contnually for the next 10 years.... so maybe we should sack him, get someone else, and HE will be the right man for the job, HE will be the one who sticks around long term. The pressure to sack SAF's replacement will come first and foremost from the stands, as well as from the press and Gill / the Glazer sons or whoever.
I hope we bring someone in who we trust, who has proven himself, and then we do show patience. Even if they have a nightmare first season, even if things dont look like they are improving, past the time people think a reasonable amount of time has elapsed for them to get it right. But it is easy to say that from where we are now. Whether we will be able to hold our nerve when the time comes - whether you or I will still advocate this course in that situation - is, I think, considerably more doubtful.
If Moyes took over next season, we finished his first season at the club in 7th, and then started the next season badly, playing woefully, getting spanked left right and centre, making acquisitions some of us thought were the wrong ones, playing in a formation others of us dont like... I suspect most of us will be calling for blood. That is why more teams dont follow Arsenal's and our example.
Didnt Liverpool used to pride themselves on the continuity in their management arrangements, in having patience and building for the long term? It is a very hard thing to do when you are losing.
I'm commenting on a reality of what is happening in today's game and that it is unrealistic to presume a manager will be here as long as the likes of Fergie and Wenger, which undermines the Moyes longevity angle. For all we know Mourinho could be at the club for ten years that are distinctly more successful than anyone else.
It is indeed. The next manager is going to be under tremendous pressure to keep winning from the start.
I think this is key, because such systems haven't worked out well in English football and, more than any other club, Manchester United is not set up for such a diluted managerial role. To take the control away from the manager would uproot everything Fergie has built and change the dynamics of the entire club at the most fundamental level. David Moyes' role at Everton is very similar in stature to SAF's role at United, he's the gaffer in every sense, and that's what we'll need to fill the void left by Sir Alex, we'll need somebody who has experience taking the reins, not just in regards to the selection of the first team on match day but the grassroots level all the way up.
Things are completely different from the time Fergie first took over to what they are now. Of course the new manager won't be allowed the luxury of being in-charge without winning anything for 5 years. When Fergie came along the club hadn't won the domestic championship for 20 years and patience was needed while he rebuilds the team and make them championship worthy. The challenge is different now, the continuity is in regards to extending his good work over the past 25 years. To follow in the clubs tradition while keeping it at the top of English and world football.
I think in the same way Fergie got Queiroz as a number 2 so that he could understand more modern European tactics better....I think if Moyes got a really innovative number 2 coach trained well in the arts of Modern attacking European tactics such as a successful coach from the Barca youth academy or a number 2 coach from Dortmund or Juventus or something then I think Moyes could succeed here as his motivational skills and hunger to win are as high as any coachs out there. Maybe Mike Phelan has enough know how to continue the number 2 role for whoever comes in but what you absolutely want to see is Utd playing the 451 or 433 or 4231 or whatever modern tactics that have been working so well with coaches like Mourinho and Pep whose tactics tend to murder teams that still play something resembling 442! Moyes 442 would not bring us any new ideas in Europe....Even Steve Clarke would probably offer us a lot more than Moyes in Europe with his whole philosophy coming fromhis time wwith Mourinho.
In saying that would be nice to have a coach that could lure the best of German or French youth talent maybe in the same way Wenger is able to do often getting top young French players for next to nothing into the Arsenal youth acedemy. France after England of course is probably the best source of young talent that English clubs can attract.
Klopp at Dortmund has to be up there as one of the front runners for the job and surely we could offer him a package that could tempt him from Dortmund. Blanc might be a dark horse to get it! I dont think we will go the Mourinho or Pep route to be hoenst as I think they will already be snapped up by the time we go to look for a new manager.
Klopp as our new manager with Keano or Ole as his number 2 would be mouthwatering.
In saying that would be nice to have a coach that could lure the best of German or French youth talent maybe in the same way Wenger is able to do often getting top young French players for next to nothing into the Arsenal youth acedemy. France after England of course is probably the best source of young talent that English clubs can attract.
Klopp at Dortmund has to be up there as one of the front runners for the job and surely we could offer him a package that could tempt him from Dortmund. Blanc might be a dark horse to get it! I dont think we will go the Mourinho or Pep route to be hoenst as I think they will already be snapped up by the time we go to look for a new manager.
Klopp as our new manager with Keano or Ole as his number 2 would be mouthwatering.
Rafa?
I expect he'll be available by the time SAF goes.
I expect he'll be available by the time SAF goes.
RAWK would explode.I agree with all of this, and it all points towards David Moyes being a good appointment for me.
Despite managing Everton who have at times struggled for form and financing, he's kept his job and persevered, he's not panicked under pressure, he's held support of the fan base and the board and he's built a strong Everton team through all the adversity whilst along the way he's developed a thorough understanding of how to take control of every level of an English football club.
That's what United will need when SAF leaves, that strength of leadership and character on every level, because that's exactly what we'll be losing when our manager retires. Very few modern managers other than David Moyes can boast such credentials.
It suggests he has the credentials to be a good long term manager at a mid table side like Everton. Finishing an average of 8th over 11 seasons is quite good for them and certainly enough for the owner to keep him 11 seasons and beyond, but its quite a leap to propose that this is good enough to manage the biggest club in the world, especially in light of managers like Guardiola and Mourinho available as potential Fergie replacements.
One question that hasn't really been answered is that if Moyes's managerial methods are so revered, why hasn't he been picked up by a bigger club after qualifying Everton for the CL in 2004/05 ?
Managing Everton where your expectations don't go beyond finishing well clear of the bottom 5 is a completely different kettle than challening for top honours with United but then again someone like Klopp was struggling with Mainz yet Borussia could see the potential that was there and were spot on to employ him. You need to be aware of particular strengths of a manager and be able to determine whether they'd be enough to make a step up to the big job, looking s results alone might not necessarily be enough. Villas Boas record with Porto was excellent, the best in Europe, but he couldn't handle the Chelsea job and hasn't impressed all that much at Spurs up to this point.
A couple of days ago in this thread it was suggested maybe people have made inquiries about him but he wanted to stay put. Then you get into: why? Lack of ambition? Just never the right job? Or holding out for SAF's job?
I think it's clear that Moyes is cut out for the Manager job at United, and hearing his words I doubt that SAF would disagree. It's too big a job for Mourinho, he hasn't the experience necessary, plus he just walks out of clubs whenever the pressure becomes too much for him; United deserve better than that.
Liverpool wouldn't have come near him nor would he ever move there, so that leaves Spurs and Newcastle of all teams with more resources than Everton who might have enquired. I can see why he wouldn't be particularly fond of Newcastle, the way they haven't really had any stability in the past decads, and I'm not sure Spurs were keen on him at any given point. I'm also pretty sure he wouldn't get any lucrative offers from Italy, Germany or Spain.
He's been under constant pressure from Real Madrid and is still there. He was forced out of Chelsea by their owner and left Inter and Porto after he's achieved everything he could with them, leaving for much better jobs.
He's there still, but ever ready to walk out at a moment's notice.
Not one of the positions Mourinho has held has entailed anything like the scope of either the job SAF will leave behind or the one Moyes currently holds. Jose's a coach, that's all. United will need more than a coach to replace SAF when he leaves.
Mourinho leaving Chelsea, in retrospect seems to have been the sane thing to do given Roman's Caligula-like mentalism. He was right to leave Porto as he'd won the CL and UEFA Cup and was ready for the big time, and obviously winning the CL and treble with Inter was the pinnacle. He seems to handle pressure better than most managers, which is a an important quality we will need given the pressures Fergie's successor (if its not a well known manager with a record of success) wont be able to deal with the inevitable fan revolt after losing a few games early on.
Good point here but I have the feeling Jose would like to be more than a coach, albeit a pretty fecking good one. He left Chelsea because he didn't have the absolutism he desired, and at Real he demanded the removal of Valdano to increase his influence on the club. Since Porto he has not been at a club that harbours, or has the desire to harbour an almost autocratic system Ferguson has developed so well at United.
The truth is such a system is very hard to replicate on the continent, with perhaps the exception of Germany. I'm sure Mourinho would crave the control Ferguson or Moyes enjoy but he cannot hope to achieve that fully with the clubs he has coached, perhaps with the exception of Porto...I'm not sure. The best he can do is influence the stakeholders to trust him to deliver, hence what has occured at Real.
The truth is Moyes or anyone who comes in will not have to build a structure anyway, merely slot in seamlessly. This is perhaps why I understand your leaning towards Moyes but there is no suggestion Mourinho could not achieve this transition. It's maybe what he has been waiting for his whole managerial/coaching career.
I can see Pep, Mourinho, Klopp etc being given time to get things right. Moyes might end up being on thin ice with our support from day one.
If Moyes had, for example, got the Spurs job and further progressed them for a few years I might be more comfortable with the idea. As it is...no way.
There are much, much better options to be explored.
Isn't that a 2 edged sword Raoul? The pressure will be great on any manager coming in, i think we will all agree on that. However the pressure will be even greater on Mourinho, as it will be expected for him to succeed.
On top of that we have the fact that there will not be anywhere near the funds available here, that he has enjoyed at Chelsea, Madrid or Inter. He will also be expected to promote from within rather than spend astronomical amounts on new players.
For me, the infrastructure we have already in place, the emphasis placed upon youth coming through, the financial disadvantage compared to some other clubs, in terms of paying the highest wages and the 50% tax on their earnings. It just doesn't seem the type of circumstances that Mourinho would want to have under such huge weight of expectation to produce ongoing and immediate success.
No one has to get anything right with this club. We are already "right", need someone to continue it.
Mourinho is probably everyones favourite considering Pep is going to have first pick of a job at City and Chelsea. Im guessing Pep will end up at City with Mourinho possibly heading to Chelsea for a second stint come the summer with Fergie probably staying one final year to try and balance the team a little more and maybe nurture one or two more younguns into the first team!
If somehow Mourinho was still available once Fergie retires and we got him then it really wouldnt be the end of the world if he just stayed for a few seasons if we put a good number 2 beside him like Keano or Ole who could take over once Mourinho has a freak out and quits a few years down the road.
Moyes is not a bad option at all as you would get a young manager with heaps of experience who would see the Utd job as his last job in football as he would have no higher goals than to be manager of Utd so.....we have him for a very long time......But it would be essential that Moyes had a number 2 by his side that had a lot of experience with continental tactics to help him get the hang out tactics that he has never been know to play with Everton before!!
If somehow Mourinho was still available once Fergie retires and we got him then it really wouldnt be the end of the world if he just stayed for a few seasons if we put a good number 2 beside him like Keano or Ole who could take over once Mourinho has a freak out and quits a few years down the road.
Moyes is not a bad option at all as you would get a young manager with heaps of experience who would see the Utd job as his last job in football as he would have no higher goals than to be manager of Utd so.....we have him for a very long time......But it would be essential that Moyes had a number 2 by his side that had a lot of experience with continental tactics to help him get the hang out tactics that he has never been know to play with Everton before!!
Maybe it is, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for it. At the end of the day we need the best manager suited to this role like you said, it not only encompasses the expectations of the fans and the club itself but our history, tradition and so on. Ideally we should be looking at someone who understands what it's like to represent Manchester United. While I'm not a big fan of Moyes at United (while I appreciate what he's done for Everton) I think somebody who embodies what he stands for is what we should be aiming for.
IMO if people are looking at Moyes, we should be looking at Ole just as closely. Yes, I get the ex-player, legend phobia but I don't think that would phase him at all. The Glazers seem to appreciate what longevity can do for us. So I would go for them appointing Ole, and telling him "Right, the club is yours. You have money if you need it. Goodbye". Simplistic I know but I bet it's not far from what they said to Fergie when they took over regardless of whether he'd already been there nigh on 20 years already.
In the end he probably would make a few mistakes but he would learn from them and he would embody what Fergie has instilled in the club; determination, willingness to win at whatever the cost and to play the United way. Also I think he's got a bit of nous to go with it.
That's my penny's worth.
Comparing a man with no management experience at this level in Ole with Moyes...who has had 8 years is it? Hmmm not sure I can agree with you there.
I think Ole is nailed on for this job someday...I certainly don't think it should be just yet though. IMO anyway. Huge risk...and one with the financial issues we have that we might no be able to afford to take.
The main gripe people seem to have with Moyes is that there's no way of knowing how he'll handle a big job like United.
While this is more or less the case for every candidate, I still feel we should pick an option with at least some experience of what it's like to manage a big club where expectations are always high, and you cannot afford many mistakes.
If I could pick any manager in the world I'd probably go with Guardiola, due to a combination of experience, knowing how to win, and I think he'd make us bloody good to watch + he knows how to bring youth through. I think he's the boss that best fall in line with our history and traditions while at the same time knowing to do what's needed to win.
While this is more or less the case for every candidate, I still feel we should pick an option with at least some experience of what it's like to manage a big club where expectations are always high, and you cannot afford many mistakes.
If I could pick any manager in the world I'd probably go with Guardiola, due to a combination of experience, knowing how to win, and I think he'd make us bloody good to watch + he knows how to bring youth through. I think he's the boss that best fall in line with our history and traditions while at the same time knowing to do what's needed to win.
Zero chance of that happening. But lovely idea.
All speculation of course, but I don't think the Glazers leaving SAF well alone will prove indicative of their MO once he is gone. SAF is a special case, established, loved, experienced... A safe pair of hands. I think they'll be more likely to get the jitters with a new manager if we hit a rough patch.
As will we all, I expect.
This is where I am at.
I honestly don't think anyone can replace SAF. Once he retires the club should he wound down.
He'll only leave if they sack him, I think.
You assume we'll only be willing to maintain the same model we've had in the past 25 years with Ferguson. This might not be the case, we might employ the same model nearly all top clubs in Europe have right now, i.e. changing managers every few years while trying to remain competitive. Do you think Moyes would be given another few seasons if he repeated Ferguson's results from his beginnings at United, in a current climate? I don't think he would.
Besides, Mourinho said in the past that he wanted to prove himself in all top leagues before settling down. He's also said his prefered destination was Premier League. I think that he'd stay at United for much longer, perhaps a decade or so. One thing I'm sure of - if we don't make a move for him he'll end up at one of our rivals and it might not be pretty.
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