Cheers for expressing my thoughts better than I ever could. Agree with every word. (And yes, shoulders and balls!
)Moyes To Succeed Ferguson Anyone?
- Thread starter BeardedGenius
- Start date
- Status
)Yes, they were bought for the future. We could get 8 years out of Jones and he'll be 27 with huge resale value. As an asset his worth is only going one way, in general Mourinho's go the other.
Mikel at Chelsea, probably a couple others too.
His Porto spell gets ignored a lot too. There's a reason why the likes of Carvalho, Ferreira, Maniche and Deco have all gone on to have successful careers on top of winning Champions League with them.
Still, if we signed Ozil and Sahin for something like 18m pounds we could also be looking at both quality and long term resale value.
I'm not arguing that Mourinho cares much about bringing up youngsters. I'm saying that it's a less important concept nowadays and most fans will trade that for the immediate success that buying established players with huge potential from smaller clubs brings. In fact, not only will they trade it, they will demand it.
Honestly, which manager are you expecting to come to United and bring up Wellbeck-like players when they will have the chance to buy players like Van Persie.
Even Sir Alex Ferguson seems to be in a clearly downward trend in terms of investing in youngsters let alone whoever follows him, regardless of if it's Mourinho or other one.
For the record, at Porto he did make use of a few youngsters, notably Postiga who played at such a great level under him that made some actually think he was a football player, including Tottenham. Elsewhere, he didn't have the need for it, it wasn't expected of him, and no one else would do it in his position.
If he goes to United, Evans, Wellbeck and Cleverley will continue to be choices, I'm sure, as they are all useful players. They won't turn into world beaters, but then again I don't think they will under SAF or Moyes either way.
Sahin is a good example, signed as the reigning Bundesliga Player of the Year and barely got a look in. Hardly textbook development.
I think he was injured most of the time, to be fair.
If you are going to include Mikel then I'll include Anderson and Nani at United, same level of signing.
Nah not that I remember, he was injured at the beginning but not for long just a few months.
Hardly. Both were regulars in Portuguese league for top sides, Mikel played for Lyn. He isn't even in the same bracket as Jones apart from the fee.
He cost £16million and went into the first team.
Santon made 28 appearances and balotelli 48 under mourinho. Coutinho is only just starting to establish himself for inter. Its easy to say that mourinho doesnt give youth a chance but what have those clubs done after him? Have chelsea introduced a single player since he left from their academy? Dont know about inter but real never had a good record of youth players so you cant blame him for not bringing through youngsters
And the season after mourinho left, santon was sent out to loan. Compared that to SAF, every player that we had got first team experience elsewhere before he was introduced to the first team. Mourinho could just as easily do the same as its a risk-free method of bringing through youngsters.
Edit-and you cant accuse him of not making signings to build towards the future as only now chelsea are getting rid of the side that he built for them way back then.
And the season after mourinho left, santon was sent out to loan. Compared that to SAF, every player that we had got first team experience elsewhere before he was introduced to the first team. Mourinho could just as easily do the same as its a risk-free method of bringing through youngsters.
Edit-and you cant accuse him of not making signings to build towards the future as only now chelsea are getting rid of the side that he built for them way back then.
I'm on my phone on the train so I'll respond to the Chelsea comment when I get back, it's ridiculous though.
You are wrong about Madrid, he has been heavily criticised by sections of the press and fans for not utilising the Cantera, especially compared to Barcelona.
By the way did you watch Levante? With Higuain, Benzema and Ronaldo out he had no option but to use a youth product... Can you guess what happened?
You are wrong about Madrid, he has been heavily criticised by sections of the press and fans for not utilising the Cantera, especially compared to Barcelona.
By the way did you watch Levante? With Higuain, Benzema and Ronaldo out he had no option but to use a youth product... Can you guess what happened?
How am I wrong? yes, he has been heavily criticized but their last youth product who was part of the first team was casillas. So how can you say that the problem started with him coming to real when they have no tradition of playing youngsters.
By the way did you watch united-aston villa match a few seasons back? What happened to that youth product now? Its idiotic to use one-off matches as a basis of whether a player has enough talent to make it or not.
Pretty sure Santon was doing quite well and Mourinho praised him a lot and then he got a bad injury on two separate occasions on his knee whilst Mourinho was there.
In any case, Inter is hardly known for their youth products. Real have plenty of youth products, I think most in professional football in Spain, but they are usually not good enough for Real. An issue that's been mentioned by the press and Mourinho himself lately.
I think Moyes is a popular choice because a lot of fans are football romantics, and they want to see a success story, where an underdog makes it.
Moyes is a hard-nosed and grey, grey, grey man for a grey, grey day. Only romantic if your idea of romance is eating gravel in a ditch.
I can not imagine anything less inspiring than appointing Moyes. It's like falling on the sword. Only not that dramatic and romantic, just a long drawn out whimper of death. In a ditch. With cold water seeping through your clothes.
I was going to say he's a bit of a plodder but I can't compete with that (surely too flowery for Moyes tho').Moyes is in Molde tonight. Presumably to persuade Solskjær not to take the United gig, so he can get it instead.
I was thinking in a sense that it gives a feel of "doing it the right way". Similar to getting a potentially good player who'll develop in the club, as oppose to buying an established star (Mourinho, Guardiola).Jose has a point about Castilla though, he argues that the coaches play differing systems to the first team and it makes integration more difficult. Barca have that continuity all the way through the system thanks largely to Pep Guardiola. Jose is actually keen for the players to develop correctly so they integrate quicker, he has already stated he would prefer them to concentrate on this integration rather than solely winning games.
He has played plenty of prospects from Castilla in the past two seasons....Alex Fernandez, Morata, Pablo Sarabia just to name a few. I feel he knows how important local players are to a side, look at the Portuguese contingent at Porto, the English base at Chelsea, or Santon, Balotelli et al at Inter. I think perhaps his patience in young players is maybe a touch off beat but he makes a reasonable point that if someone is not at the correct level when 23-24, they are not going to be at 27-28.
And against Levante he bought Morata on, so kudos to him no? It wasn't the first time this season he has come off the bench. Also Ronaldo wasn't out he was injured during the game but carried on to score the first goal?
Ronaldo was off when Morata was brought on, that was my point. He didn't recover from the cut so got took off at half time.
Benzema and Higuain were already out so Ronaldo was playing as a striker, when he was off Morata was the only option.
And Pablo Sarabia.... Come on.
Moyes is a great manager, but I personally think he's too big a risk to be trusted to replace one of the greatest managers of all time. The problem is, we will be competing for the foreseeable future with 2 sides who have resources we can never match (Don't be naive to think FFP will stop them) and right now it is difficult to overtake them as it is with Sir Alex, imagine how much worse it could be without Sir Alex or the few managers that are on his level.
Not to mention, as Mancini proved, you can have a world class squad, but if you're an idiot and don't know what you're doing in Europe, you'll be beaten. Moyes has no top level European experience and I don't think people will be patient and allow him a learning curve. If he gets Everton into the Champions League and does well or goes somewhere else and does well, I'd feel more comfortable.
From Moyes' perspective I don't know if I'd even want the job. The thing is, he's not the popular choice and any slip up people will be calling for his head because he doesn't have a track record of winning trophies like a Mourinho or Guardiola. If Moyes were to finish 3rd with us, we'd want him sacked. If Mourinho or Guardiola finish 3rd with us, we'd support them, blame the Glazers for lack of funds and go into next season with Scouser-like optimism.
Not to mention, as Mancini proved, you can have a world class squad, but if you're an idiot and don't know what you're doing in Europe, you'll be beaten. Moyes has no top level European experience and I don't think people will be patient and allow him a learning curve. If he gets Everton into the Champions League and does well or goes somewhere else and does well, I'd feel more comfortable.
From Moyes' perspective I don't know if I'd even want the job. The thing is, he's not the popular choice and any slip up people will be calling for his head because he doesn't have a track record of winning trophies like a Mourinho or Guardiola. If Moyes were to finish 3rd with us, we'd want him sacked. If Mourinho or Guardiola finish 3rd with us, we'd support them, blame the Glazers for lack of funds and go into next season with Scouser-like optimism.
Ever have that terrifying moment where you're reading the first thread of a page without realising it's from 2005? Just had it big time.
Capello being offered as a serious contender.
Capello being offered as a serious contender.
So basically what you're saying is that he's the personification of Christian Grey?
Okay, understood.
What often gets overlooked with Moyes is exactly how long he's held the manager's job at Everton. He's been at the club for a decade now, and thus has acquired an attribute of experience that few other modern managers possess; the experience of long-term development of a single club over many years, experience which we'll be losing when SAF retires.
Is Mourinho capable of taking over such a project with the expectation of continuation and longevity as the United managerial role? He may have bags of experience winning trophies with infinite cash at his disposal, but his experience at being dedicated towards a long term project is nil. Mourinho receives fair criticism for his lack of youth development, something which will always be the case as he has no experience whatsoever in working on a club from the ground up; he's a first XI man without any proficiency in managing other areas of a club, areas which Sir Alex has steadily built Manchester United around from the very beginning, to the extent that such long-term planning and grass-roots development represents the very essence of what is Manchester United.
What Moyes would bring with him is exactly that experience of long-term building of a club at every level, he's the same style of manager as Ferguson, and for me that's perhaps the single most desirable trait to look for in SAF's replacement; somebody who'll have the experience and ability to continue and expand on SAF's masterpiece, somebody who'll bring new ideas but nevertheless respect the ethos and philosophy in place already at the club, rather that than somebody who'll lay waste to the good work, ignore it completely in favour of a few magabucks signings before moving onto the next short-term project in four seasons' time.
Experience in the Champions League and the collection of silverware can be acquired, but the correct attitude in regards to long-term development of a club at every level is something which few modern managers will ever possess. Moyes has that.
Is Mourinho capable of taking over such a project with the expectation of continuation and longevity as the United managerial role? He may have bags of experience winning trophies with infinite cash at his disposal, but his experience at being dedicated towards a long term project is nil. Mourinho receives fair criticism for his lack of youth development, something which will always be the case as he has no experience whatsoever in working on a club from the ground up; he's a first XI man without any proficiency in managing other areas of a club, areas which Sir Alex has steadily built Manchester United around from the very beginning, to the extent that such long-term planning and grass-roots development represents the very essence of what is Manchester United.
What Moyes would bring with him is exactly that experience of long-term building of a club at every level, he's the same style of manager as Ferguson, and for me that's perhaps the single most desirable trait to look for in SAF's replacement; somebody who'll have the experience and ability to continue and expand on SAF's masterpiece, somebody who'll bring new ideas but nevertheless respect the ethos and philosophy in place already at the club, rather that than somebody who'll lay waste to the good work, ignore it completely in favour of a few magabucks signings before moving onto the next short-term project in four seasons' time.
Experience in the Champions League and the collection of silverware can be acquired, but the correct attitude in regards to long-term development of a club at every level is something which few modern managers will ever possess. Moyes has that.
I cant believe that there are people comparing Moyes with Mourinho. What's next? Whose the best manager between SAF and Rodgers?
It's not a matter of who's the best manager, rather, it's who's the best manager for United. In SAF's own words:
'You take myself and Arsene Wenger and the length of time we have been at our clubs, but we have had success to help us on our way. David has had to contend with not having a strong financial structure. He has to get the best out of the players he has had available and has done an amazing job. He has a grittiness and determination that has allowed him to be in there all the time. No matter how many players he has had injured he produces a team that has represented the club very well. He is a first-class manager.'
Excellent post Buddy.
On a forum where most want a shiny new manager, who is going to bring European success, it's nice to see someone with an understanding of the deeper complexities of the position and it's impact on long term future the club.
Except that the age of managers with long tenures is for the most part coming to an end. The likes of Fergie, Wenger, and to a lesser extent Moyes, are exceptions. I see the Moyes brigade as one of identity politics - the need to have a manager that is reassuringly Scottish in the SirMatt/Fergie mold, in an age where the global brand of the club appears to be rapidly spiraling into a distinctly heterogeneous fan base from places like Mexico, the Middle East, Malaysia, and North America. The reality is that our next manager is probably not be here for a long time and we should lose the fixation with trying to replicate the Fergie ethos in an age where its clearly not sustainable.
There's no need for this to be the case, there's no good reason for managers being disposable commodities in football, such is not the desirable setting, and this has absolutely nothing to do with Moyes being Scottish.
That's all very well, but long term management at a club like Everton involves getting the best price for players bigger clubs want and trying to replace them with cheaper signings to maintain a similar level (Europa qualification or thereabouts). Whilst good experience, there is not exactly directly replicable to what United need - the evolution of a team at out own terms and pace (Ronaldo notwithstanding), generally we very very rarely sell players we want to keep.
You could argue that Moyes could learn long term management at a top team, but that'll be a learning process all the same. Personally I'd fancy Mourinho, who's already well experienced managing top teams to learn LT planning than Moyes to suddenly develop the ability to manage a top team (never mind LT).
It is the case though, at least its more the extreme exception rather than the norm. How many long term managers (10 plus years) in Europe's top four leagues are there these days ? There are probably so few that any manager who remains at a club for 5-10 years could be viewed as a success in terms of longevity.
On Moyes, i'll bet that more than a few of those who support him are mired a sort of quixotic delusion that the Sir Matt/Fergie ethos will continue through Moyes, as if someone who comes from the same place, speaks with the same accent, and get his club to punch above its weight surely must the next iteration of the illustrious past.
Exactly. Or more recently, galatasaray. He has no clue or point this theon lad.has he
It's only the case because modern managers have little experience in long term development; so when an opportunity arises to sign a manager who has demonstrated that he can take the helm long term and run a club from the bottom up then why should that be ignored? There's nothing gained by replacing a manager every couple of years, I can't think of any instance whereby such a policy has worked to the benefit of a club, and I know of no football man who has ever championed the phenomenon; the fact that such practices are commonplace doesn't validate the notion; it's basically a case of chairman being dicks, interfering in matters they're not really qualified to handle, Roman Abromivic being the epitome. Why should United follow suit? United in particular, to the club's eternal benefit, is from the ground up built around long term managerial vision and commitment, so why should we suddenly scrap all that and let it go to waste? If your justification goes no further than simply, 'It's what other clubs do!' then I'm afraid you're just talking rubbish.
Again, this has nothing to do with Moyes being Scottish, it's bizarre that you've twice brought that up now.
I don't see how that's an issue here at all. If the biggest problem a manager has in making a step up is having to contend with no longer losing his best players to bigger clubs then for me that puts him on easy street.
I'm not saying Moyes wouldn't find the United job a challenge, far from it, but what you've described here is not an area wherein the challenge would lie.
I'm surprised by the apprehension to moyes from the pl he's the stand out choice and I don't see what's wrong with a British manager. As others have said he's shown he's willing to committ long term to a project, has a good record of being able to spot opportunities on limited budgets and tries to play the game as best he can within the confines of what he has to work with and importantly has shown that he's very good at getting the best out of a bunch if players.
Mourinho likes to splash the cash and unless fergie has been hoarding its unlikely hes had masses of cash to work with, additionally mourinho has so far never committed to a project long term. Unless he's willing to stay longer than I don't see the point. Cause then whoever succeeds him is going to get judged by his likely short term success and then the long term success fergie has had. Surely we'd be better off identifying someone with the right qualities to take the job and is willing to commit to it long term. In the short run we might not have immediate success but in the long term as with fergie it might prove to be wise.
That said if mourinho is willing to settle down, which maybe possible given hes won the big three leagues now than he's has the edge but like I said before moyes has achieved great things at Everton, a job he's praised highly for by his peers, I reckon he'll be in the running for the job.
Mourinho likes to splash the cash and unless fergie has been hoarding its unlikely hes had masses of cash to work with, additionally mourinho has so far never committed to a project long term. Unless he's willing to stay longer than I don't see the point. Cause then whoever succeeds him is going to get judged by his likely short term success and then the long term success fergie has had. Surely we'd be better off identifying someone with the right qualities to take the job and is willing to commit to it long term. In the short run we might not have immediate success but in the long term as with fergie it might prove to be wise.
That said if mourinho is willing to settle down, which maybe possible given hes won the big three leagues now than he's has the edge but like I said before moyes has achieved great things at Everton, a job he's praised highly for by his peers, I reckon he'll be in the running for the job.
What makes you so confident that it is not sustainable? The most successful periods in every top clubs history have come under a spell of continuity. When did that change? Also, I am completely at a loss as to what a rapidly spiraling fan base has to do with the next manager? Expansion of football into different markets makes getting a Scottish manager less desirable? Or we should get some from outside Britain to make it more appealing in these expanding markets of Mexico, the Middle East, Malaysia and North America? The reality "might be" that the next manager won't last as long Fergie has but that should prevent me from hoping for one? Or do you simply think wanting Moyes is an idea completely borne out of romanticism and eludes rationality?
These are genuine questions, btw. I am a bit bewildered by your post; not sure that I totally understand it. It would be excellent if you could expand it for the comprehension of uninitiated folks, like myself.
Also, I am 100% Indian. Don't have any real love for Scotland.
What gets overlooked a lot is Moyes' complete lack of experience in Europe. The furthest he has got was the last 16 of UEFA Cup I think, when Everton got eliminated by Fiorentina. They were knocked out by Villarreal the only time they'd made it into CL qualifiers and I remember them being battered by Standard Liege in UEFA Cup a few years ago. All in all his European record is far from impressive and I'm not sure Glazers will want someone who may be a bit of hit or miss in European football.
- Status