Moyes: Stick or Sack?

Moyes: Stick or Sack?

  • Stick

    Votes: 251 73.6%

  • Sack

    Votes: 90 26.4%
  • Total voters
    341
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Adebesi said:
Yes. And also I wouldnt call it two transfer windows, though of course you are technically right. I could call the Jan transfer window more of a porthole than a window, and the transfer window he got last summer was painted shut. It sounds like I am making excuses but I have been saying this from the beginning, he needed a full year and then a transfer window after that before I would even start the counter in terms of judging him. I am probably being too kind, I wouldnt make a good businessman - I am not brutal enough. But I definitely agree about the squad, that is one thing people are making excuses for him about that I dont agree with. The squad needs a few additions but not the kind of wholesale invasive surgery some people are making out. Its a good squad, and one that will improve over time. People say it is aging, but I see a lot of youth in it that will improve in the coming seasons.
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I just can't see it like that. The first year can't simply be a freebie for me. A manage can't completely wreck the team, the football it plays, the confidence of the players, buy badly and it just not matter. I'm judging Moyes every match and that's how it should be IMO. If you hire a CEO of a company, whether he's replacing some no mark or steve jobs, how can you justify saying "it doesn't matter what he does in year 1". Life changes very quickly. You can go from the top to mediocrity very quickly in any field and the struggle to get back to where you were can take very long.

And it's not like I'm saying "champions or sack" or "top two or sack" either. The expectations I've said he should fulfill are 4th place or slightly lower + quality football. It's the bare minimum really. The way I see it, if he can't even do that, then there's no visible potential on the basis of which to allow him a lot of funds next summer and another possible year outside the top 4 and financial loss. Patience is good. But even patience has to be earned in "some" way. It can't be completely blind IMO. Even whilst I think everyone can hold their own opinion, there gave to be some grounds on which a second year is given. It can't be because he's David Moyes and he signed a 6 year deal so let's just give him a third of that even though he's showing feck all.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I just can't see it like that. The first year can't simply be a freebie for me. A manage can't completely wreck the team, the football it plays, the confidence of the players, buy badly and it just not matter. I'm judging Moyes every match and that's how it should be IMO. If you hire a CEO of a company, whether he's replacing some no mark or steve jobs, how can you justify saying "it doesn't matter what he does in year 1". Life changes very quickly. You can go from the top to mediocrity very quickly in any field and the struggle to get back to where you were can take very long.

And it's not like I'm saying "champions or sack" or "top two or sack" either. The expectations I've said he should fulfill are 4th place or slightly lower + quality football. It's the bare minimum really. The way I see it, if he can't even do that, then there's no visible potential on the basis of which to allow him a lot of funds next summer and another possible year outside the top 4 and financial loss. Patience is good. But even patience has to be earned in "some" way. It can't be completely blind IMO. Even whilst I think everyone can hold their own opinion, there gave to be some grounds on which a second year is given. It can't be because he's David Moyes and he signed a 6 year deal so let's just give him a third of that even though he's showing feck all.
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I think your position is very reasonable. For the reasons I disagree I have nothing more to add to what I have said before so Ill leave it at that. Hopefully it will all prove academic and Moyes will go on a barnstorming run for the rest of the season that will leave both of us - and everyone else here - satisfied and swing everyone behind him. Im not holding my breath, so itll be interesting, come summer, if things continue like this, when these divisions that are starting to appear really get opened up. Itll be like a civil war, played out on the internet. At least itll be more interesting than debating whether Kagawa can play on the left or who the best midfield partner for Carrick is.
 
Kag said:
Stick until the end of the season. If we're out the top four then he can do one. There isn't a single argument to the contrary. Wankers can rewrite the realities and pretend that "the squad isn't good enough" but it is without any shadow of doubt good enough to make top four. It should be in the mix of a strong title challenge. We have some cracking players, most of which are decimated by an old-fashioned, gutless system and coaching that has seen our football more like Stoke than Spain.

He has 6 months. Sacking his inexperienced, unproven chums in favour of some modern, 'continental' coaches to help with the passing and moving in training would be his best bet to turn things around. This is what determines a team's success, not clichéd bullshit like 'attitude, effort and motivation'.
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Or you could just support your team and your manager through thick and thin. Or maybe you'd rather feck off and support Barcelona?
 
For me the difference between a manager like Moyes compared to the Guardiolas and Mourinhos is that a manager like Moyes needs about 4 seasons to get it right where as the others mentioned take 1 season to get it right as they are tactically superior and have a much bigger pulling power for top players.....a manager like Moyes would maybe depend on the individual brilliance of a couple of top players to win games as opposed to relying on tactical brilliance like some other managers to win games
 
Ringo 07 said:
For me the difference between a manager like Moyes compared to the Guardiolas and Mourinhos is that a manager like Moyes needs about 4 seasons to get it right where as the others mentioned take 1 season to get it right as they are tactically superior and have a much bigger pulling power for top players
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Then they piss off when things don't go their way or some fruity excuse like football is too much for them now, or some other bollocks.
 
The Don said:
Or you could just support your team and your manager through thick and thin. Or maybe you'd rather feck off and support Barcelona?
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A wanky post if ever there was one.

What do people mean when they say "support the manager?" As in, "don't come onto an anonymous Internet forum and say how you feel?" Infact, where in my post is there an example of me "not supporting the team or manager?" I'm quite sure in saying that I'm not giving the impression I want them to fail. The point of that would be what?

More fittingly, you don't like the fact that I think Moyes should be sacked if we finish 5th. Earth-shattering I know. I also don't think Steve Round and Phil Neville have it in them to get United playing the way I think the squad can. Again, earth-shattering.

I rate our players. I've made that clear. I'm not so sure on the manager and I don't think he should stay in the job if we fail to finish fourth. What's the problem?
 
I believe he should be backed both with time and resources, but I'm not so blind that I can't see the concerns that people have about him, particularly in terms of transfers. If we had a summer where he bought another couple of £28m players of the standard of Fellaini we'd be in real danger of going down the road of Liverpool 20 odd years ago. Spending lots of money is only the answer if you're bringing in top players. But I believe he will bring in the players he needs and that the side will be much improved by this time next year.
 
Kag said:
A wanky post if ever there was one.

What do people mean when they say "support the manager?" As in, "don't come onto an anonymous Internet forum and say how you feel?" Infact, where in my post is there an example of me "not supporting the team or manager?" I'm quite sure in saying that I'm not giving the impression I want them to fail. The point of that would be what?

More fittingly, you don't like the fact that I think Moyes should be sacked if we finish 5th. Earth-shattering I know. I also don't think Steve Round and Phil Neville have it in them to get United playing the way I think the squad can. Again, earth-shattering.

I rate our players. I've made that clear. I'm not so sure on the manager and I don't think he should stay in the job if we fail to finish fourth. What's the problem?
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That's the problem. I don't expect you to understand because you seem like the type of spoilt fan who is only concerned with success and status and want it instantly.
 
Skywarden said:
I'm far more interested in what he can do with proper, financial backing and time given to build his own squad. Does he want to build a tighter squad so that he has players he knows he trust and play frequently without rotating much, or, does he aim for a big squad with lots of rotation to cope with all the games in various competitions? This is so far still unclear.

I'm also interested in how he'll treat the academy. We have had a couple of hits and a couple of misses but overall our academy is strong and should be a vital asset to any manager managing this club, regardless of era and ambition.

With that said, I see no reason why we should lower our standards regarding where we aim to be as a top competitive football club. All of our financial projections points towards high ambitions on the field even though we had a nasty slip-up last transfer window, so I guess those are the guidelines for Moyes right now and it should be a part of any evaluation of his first season. Which it will be, no doubt.
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Im not sure. 10 years of managing everton and his shortlist consists of fabregas, baines, and recently rumored barkley.

I dont trust his squad will be much better, if any it'll consist of half everton playrr and half everton class player.

He doesnt even have a clue how to spend 30m on his first big signig, i wouldny trust him with 100m
 
Adebesi said:
I disagree with Kag on what you highlighted but I get the impression his is actually the majority view on here.
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That's what is so frustrating. Spolit rotten. The spiteful part of me hopes they get their wish and Moyes does get sacked, yet we still go on to win feck all for years on end because I think that is a real posibility of we don't have patience and give whatever manager we have time to build their own squad.
 
The Don said:
That's the problem. I don't expect you to understand because you seem like the type of spoilt fan who is only concerned with success and status and want it instantly.
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Get off your high horse. Taking the league champions into 5th place is worthy of the sack and I've got no shame in saying that's what I think should happen provided that situation arises. Many, many rational people will think that too. Getting all upset over it does your argument no favours. Nobody wants it to happen and nobody with any sense will be happy about it, but it's a distinct possibility and a perfectly acceptable discussion to start having.
 
The Don said:
That's what is so frustrating. Spolit rotten. The spiteful part of me hopes they get their wish and Moyes does get sacked, yet we still go on to win feck all for years on end because I think that is a real posibility of we don't have patience and give whatever manager we have time to build their own squad.
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I wouldnt want to be your nose if your face ever pisses you off.
 
Kag said:
Get off your high horse. Taking the league champions into 5th place is worthy of the sack and I've got no shame in saying that's what I think should happen provided that situation arises. Many, many rational people will think that too. Getting all upset over it does your argument no favours. Nobody wants it to happen and nobody with any sense will be happy about it, but it's a distinct possibility and a perfectly acceptable discussion to start having.
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I'm not on a high horse. I'm just saying you're acting like a spoilt child, which is true. You're talking about sacking a manager who's just taken on the hardest job in the world, after one season.
 
Sky1981 said:
Im not sure. 10 years of managing everton and his shortlist consists of fabregas, baines, and recently rumored barkley.

I dont trust his squad will be much better, if any it'll consist of half everton playrr and half everton class player.

He doesnt even have a clue how to spend 30m on his first big signig, i wouldny trust him with 100m
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That's fair enough mate and I don't blame you for thinking that. We can only hope he ends this "spend money on average players" now that he has a bit of fire burning under his arse and actually aims for quality.
 
The Don said:
I'm not on a high horse. I'm just saying you're acting like a spoilt child, which is true. You're talking about sacking a manager who's just taken on the hardest job in the world, after one season.
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Are we not a top club? Do you want us to keep our top players?

It's not being a spoilt child. Any top club would sack Moyes in our position. Nobody expected us to be 7th in January with 5 home defeats. This squad isn't the best, but it is not that bad.

If Moyes can't deliver champions league with this current squad then he must go.
 
I've opted to stick with him.

He wouldn't have been on my shortlist for manager, in fact he wouldn't even have been on my longlist, but those in power at United obviously thought he was the right man for the job so I'll trust their judgement for a while. Something's not right over there but I don't know what so I'm not going to sack anyone just yet. (Wouldn't mind Gill back though)
 
The Don said:
I'm not on a high horse. I'm just saying you're acting like a spoilt child, which is true. You're talking about sacking a manager who's just taken on the hardest job in the world, after one season.
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And if that manager isn't good enough to merit holding the hardest job in the world then he shouldn't hold it. Moyes is United manager because he was deemed the best man for the job. I'm not going to patronise him and act as if he doesn't have any expectations. He does, the exact same expectations I would have had of Guardiola or Mourinho had they got the job.
 
Bojan11 said:
Are we not a top club? Do you want us to keep our top players?

It's not being a spoilt child. Any top club would sack Moyes in our position. Nobody expected us to be 7th in January with 5 home defeats. This squad isn't the best, but it is not that bad.

If Moyes can't deliver champions league with this current squad then he must go.
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Yeah, that is a bullshit point and I'm not arguing it anymore. He should be doing better, granted but one season isn't a fair crack of the whip.
 
I bet you Guardiola or Mourinho would be getting more leeway right now. The assumption would be not that we were in freefall, ie out of control, but that we were being dismantled by a tactical wizard who was going to put us back together stronger than before.

I dont know, maybe I am wrong about that. I just think if we had a more glamorous foreign manager with a track record of success people would be a little more optimistic. Actually, when I read that last sentence it does justify that sentiment - a track record of success would be a nice security blanket right now.
 
I voted stick. I wanted Ancelotti, but whoever is manager gets my support until such time as the board decides to get rid. After all, turning on him is only going to make things worse.
 
Plus, it wouldn't half annoy all the Liverpool fans I know who are currently gloating if he became a success.
 
Can we have a poll about failure to qualify for CL & stick or sack?
 
I would stick with him until the end of season and if we aren't qualified to the CL then I would sack him, Everton with a new manager is playing better than when Moyes was there for so many years. Not going to the CL means some players will not want to join United so we have to buy old players or gambling with unknown players and if they really are going to give him 200 mil then that could be a disaster if he buys more Felaini's.
 
Ultimately, we're talking about whether he's up to the job. If we knew for sure the answer was yes, then it wouldn't matter if it took 6 months or 6 years for the goodies to appear in the trophy cabinet. I'd happily sit back and enjoy the ride. Watch the changes, enjoy the highs and lows. Take pleasure in the little triumphs. I've been there, seen it, done that - and for longer than 6 years.

However we don't know if he's up to the job. Any appointment is a gamble, some are bigger gambles than others. I think Moyes is a big gamble, but SAF and the board presumably thought the odds were good enough given the potential rewards. So what people are really looking at is how long they personally would give him before making a judgment.

Personally, I think there's a big difference between 6 months and 6 years. I doubt there are many people on here who would vote for either of those, though of course the Glazers might.

So Stick or Sack - right now, it's stick but if the poll had "1 season or less", "1 to 2 seasons" etc then it's a harder call. The evidence will build. So far most of the evidence is negative, but that doesn't mean it will be in May. If things are improving, then a lot of clocks will get reset.
 
jojojo said:
Ultimately, we're talking about whether he's up to the job. If we knew for sure the answer was yes, then it wouldn't matter if it took 6 months or 6 years for the goodies to appear in the trophy cabinet. I'd happily sit back and enjoy the ride. Watch the changes, enjoy the highs and lows. Take pleasure in the little triumphs. I've been there, seen it, done that - and for longer than 6 years.

However we don't know if he's up to the job. Any appointment is a gamble, some are bigger gambles than others. I think Moyes is a big gamble, but SAF and the board presumably thought the odds were good enough given the potential rewards. So what people are really looking at is how long they personally would give him before making a judgment.

Personally, I think there's a big difference between 6 months and 6 years. I doubt there are many people on here who would vote for either of those, though of course the Glazers might.

So Stick or Sack - right now, it's stick but if the poll had "1 season or less", "1 to 2 seasons" etc then it's a harder call. The evidence will build. So far most of the evidence is negative, but that doesn't mean it will be in May. If things are improving, then a lot of clocks will get reset.
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True, even as one of the most vocal against Moyes here, I'm not adverse to giving him till the end of the season and CL qualification or out.

Hence, I think a poll of No CL, another year or sack will give a much clearer picture than this one.
 
Got to stick. This is still Fergies team. I think United may continue to have the same difficulties until Moyes makes this team his own. Will he be given that amount of time though?
 
He urgently needs to go. Something is seriously wrong and sticking by him just because we hope things will change is dangerous. The way things are going, 4th place looks unlikely...missing out on the CL will be a disaster.
 
I wouldn't be greatly surprised if he's sacked over the next couple of days. It's what most clubs would do after a new appointment had gone so disastrously wrong. Is Bobby Charlton still on the board? His body language didn't look too sympathetic after the full time whistle.
 
@Hectic can you reset the poll? Is that possible? It'd be interesting to see if opinions have changed.
 
Count Orduck said:
@Hectic can you reset the poll? Is that possible? It'd be interesting to see if opinions have changed.
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Given it was made yesterday, I don't see the point. People should have been able to vote without changing their mind just one day/defeat later.
 
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