Moyes: Stick or Sack?

Moyes: Stick or Sack?

  • Stick

    Votes: 251 73.6%

  • Sack

    Votes: 90 26.4%
  • Total voters
    341
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Man Utd Mrs said:
That's quite true.
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Sacking mancini, mourinho pt1, di matteo, ranieri, grant, avb are hasty and classless, they werent doing so bad, heck rdm won them their cl

But 1st to 7th and getting sacked is not classless, it's a well deserved sacking all excuses aside.

Besides, like it or not, if chelsea didnt sack ranieri, they probably wont win the 2 league title


If we persevere with atkinson, we will never have fergie.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Manager wise, sacking the manager who won them their first league title in half a century because he came 2nd the next season comes across as pretty pathetic. Mayb there's more to it, as you say, but even then the situation is pretty farcical when the manager goes because of players. Should always be the other way round.

Really? Did I dream Adam Johnson, Carlos Tevez, Craig Bellamy, Emmanuel Adebayor, Gareth Barry, Jerome Boateng, Jo, Joleon Lescott, Kolo Toure, Maicon, Mario Balotelli, Nigel De Jong, Owen Hargreaves, Patrick Viera, Robinho, Roque Santa Cruz, Scott Sinclair, Shaun Wright Phillips, Shay Given, Sylvinho, Tal Ben-Haim and Wayne Bridge?

Sorry, but that's 22 players that cost them over £280m, all bought and then binned again within the 5 years they've been here. Are you seriously asking why people lump them in with Chelsea?
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On face value, you're right about Mancini, but there were rumblings all season about his attitude amongst the players and if there was a problem then he had to go. Player power is massive these days. You're either Ferguson or you're fecked like everybody else. I don't think he was sacked for coming second. Like I said, City's owners have been a little more fair than that in recent times.

And as for their players, I've never felt the way about City's extreme signings in the way I did with Chelsea and Abramovich. It felt like Chelsea were making random signings every day. City have binned quite a few players, but even of those you mention, Kolo, Lescott, Barry, Tevez, Bellamy, Given and arguably De Jong were all sensible signings that had run their course for various reasons. I do think City have had some kind of plan and reasonably fair attitude to things from the beginning, unlike Abramovich who has just been outrageously ruthless from the beginning. I'm glad United don't conduct themselves in such a way, but I don't think it gives us reason to act holier than thou about the sacking a manager discussion. The whole 'we couldn't sack somebody after a year cause we'll be like City' lingo doesn't wash with me. I'm not talking about you in particular, by the way.
 
Kag said:
The whole 'we couldn't sack somebody after a year cause we'll be like City' lingo doesn't wash with me. I'm not talking about you in particular, by the way.
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Fair enough, but I would stress this isn't a "houlier than thou" thing (or not entirely anyway:smirk:). I just honestly don't think regularly changing manager is constructive - I've spent years watching other teams trying to achieve success like ours by doing the exact opposite of what we were doing. While two teams that constantly over-perfotmed for their financial situations over the period have been Arsenal and Everton.

Now, I know we were lucky to have the greatest manager of all time, making the decision to keep him easy, but that is partly with hindsight. He could easily have gone at several points, even as late as 2005 if our owners had been as trigger happy as some.
 
Sir A1ex said:
1. We've not had anything like enough time to judge him yet. He's only brought in one player, who played 6 or 8 matches then got injured - we're nowhere near seeing what a DM United side looks like.

2. Because there's nothing to suggest anybody else would do any better. You can speculate all you want, but there's every chance that a new manager would just leave us back where we are now in 6 months and...

3. Going on from the above, once we've set that mold, then the obvious course of action is then to fire the next manager, and soon we are on a conveyor belt of failure which is...

4. The experience of most teams who chop and change all the time is that it doesn't help. Chelsea would almost certainly have done better if they hadn't got through so many managers in the last decade. Or, at a lower level more consistent with where we find ourselves right now, Spurs will never become a top 4 time while they insist on firing the manager every time things go badly for a few months.

5. The United Way. Seriously, in much the same way as I find it laughable the way City and Chelsea buy four new mega-bucks stars every summer and boot out the last lot, who were there supposed heros 12 months earlier, I find it pathetic the way they churn through managers. Think of the relationship we as fans had with Fergie, and how we pitied other clubs with their latest hired gun.
I value that. Not above everything - if I thought that the club's long term future was better served by rotating managers, then maybe I'd accept it as gone, but points 1 to 4 explain why I don't think that. So I'll stick with the existing plan / ethos, thanks.
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All well and good but you can't just give a manager time because it's the done thing. If it's not the right man you end up setting the club back years. Did Liverpool do the right thing getting rid of Dalglish to bring in Rodgers? If we give Moyes three years and his idea of football and targets continue as is then what position will we be in? A lot of the scenarios you paint above are exactly why we shouldn't have been taking a gamble on a man who has never proven he can win things or compete consistently at the highest level. Were his achievements at Everton any better than fat Sam's at Bolton? Sometimes you have to stop the rot before it sets in.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Sacking managers mid season is never a good idea. I reckon that if we do end up sacking Moyes, the replacement has to be top drawer. You wont get that in Jan.
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Maybe not but then I'm not saying he has to go right now though in all honesty if he was to be sacked then a caretaker until the end of the season wouldn't make much difference. If we continue as we are we aren't going to finish top 4 anyway. The scariest thing is the idea of backing him big in the transfer market.
 
Zen86 said:
Chelsea have a stronger team than us, for starters.
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They're as far ahead of us in midfield as we're ahead of them in attack.

Our current 4th choice striker would be their first choice.
 
I'm concerned, but I still think we should give him a season or 2 before passing final judgement.
 
Cal? said:
They're as far ahead of us in midfield as we're ahead of them in attack.

Our current 4th choice striker would be their first choice.
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It's great having such a wonderful attack when there's no midfield to give them the ball, you can really build some solid foundations as a new manager with that, especially when your a manager with such renown for carefree attacking football like Mourinho :rolleyes:. Yeah, we'd definitely be top of the league.
 
It's a shame things have panned out the way they have thus far, I desperate want Moyes to succeed as he seems a really likeable guy. However, I definitely feel that there needs to be at least the green shoots of genuine improvement showing by the end of the season, rather than the stop-start form we've shown thus far. In any case, given that with over 5 years left on his contract that termination would set the club back about £30m, you have to wonder what would improve our fortunes more; quality player(s) totaling that sum (yeah yeah Fellaini joke), or the same squad under new management from the available pool. I'd certainly lean towards the former at the moment.
 
Zen86 said:
It's great having such a wonderful attack when there's no midfield to give them the ball, you can really build some solid foundations as a new manager with that, especially when your a manager with such renown for carefree attacking football like Mourinho :rolleyes:. Yeah, we'd definitely be top of the league.
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It certainly worked okay with Sir Alex last season. :rolleyes:

Anyway, we're going around in circles, let's just disagree.
 
The worrying thing is, if this is all down to the players not believing in the manager, feeling they are more successful than him, know the club better than him, and basically not having sufficient respect to give their all for him - as I'm increasingly convinced it is - it's hard to see what is going to change. The margins are so fine at the top in football, the difference between winning and losing might be an almost imperceptible fraction of extra effort. SAF was a master of getting the maximum out of his players, it seems like a lot of players are not giving their all, even if it is just a little less it is making a difference. As the saying goes, there are no easy games in the PL.

It's a vicious cycle because the longer this bullshit continues, the more clueless Moyes looks and the more entrenched that attitude is likely to get among the players. Any belief they had will ebb away. That's the challenge Moyes has ahead of him. SAF must have known this was going to be an issue, he must have felt Moyes was up to it. So we'll see if he was right.
 
for those who are saying the squad has been neglected in recent years, we spent more since summer 2011 than we have done in any other 2 year period in our history - we spent £146 million.

the problem is alot of the players signed were average squad players but we over paid for them. you cannot blame investment, £146million is a crazy amount of money.
 
Adebesi said:
The worrying thing is, if this is all down to the players not believing in the manager, feeling they are more successful than him, know the club better than him, and basically not having sufficient respect to give their all for him - as I'm increasingly convinced it is - it's hard to see what is going to change. The margins are so fine at the top in football, the difference between winning and losing might be an almost imperceptible fraction of extra effort. SAF was a master of getting the maximum out of his players, it seems like a lot of players are not giving their all, even if it is just a little less it is making a difference. As the saying goes, there are no easy games in the PL.

It's a vicious cycle because the longer this bullshit continues, the more clueless Moyes looks and the more entrenched that attitude is likely to get among the players. Any belief they had will ebb away. That's the challenge Moyes has ahead of him. SAF must have known this was going to be an issue, he must have felt Moyes was up to it. So we'll see if he was right.
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SAF and the board have to take a huge responsiblity for what's happening now too.
 
another reason Moyes wont be sacked is this mindless 6 year contract - would cost about £27million to pay him off, though i am not sure he would get full amount would he?

another insane decision, what was the point...i doubt the likes of real and Bayern would have been lining up to get him had his 4 year contract ran out would they?
 
To pick up from my post just above I wonder if Moyes doesn't need to identify who he thinks is culpable of lacking the same kind of commitment they showed SAF - if he believes that is what is going on - and make an example of them, feck them off brutally, sell them and make it clear in the dressing room anyone who isn't giving enough will follow them out the door. Put the fear of God into the dressing room, show them who's boss. I wonder if clearing a few people out this month might not be even more important than bringing a few people in.
 
smallred said:
£146million is a crazy amount of money.
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By any sane reckoning yes. But not compared to the £245m Chelsea have spent, or the £230m City have spent. Liverpool have spent £154m and Spurs £172m. Even tight-fisted Arsenal have spent £148m in the period. It's certainly not exceptional.
 
Zen86 said:
Chelsea have a stronger team than us, for starters.
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Bet you wouldn't have said that last season. There defence is soft there midfield is okay but they have had better and there strikers :wenger:.

Only thing they have going for them is there front three and back options for that position.
 
Pink Moon said:
No chance United would be where they are if Ferguson was in charge but I do believe that they'd probably be around 4th place. I mean absolutely no disrespect but this is the worst United squad I've seen.

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Clearly you've not been watching for long then.
 
roseguy64 said:
Clearly you've not been watching for long then.
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Correct. Check out this squad, against Norwich in the Premiership in the 04/05 season:

Howard; G. Neville, O'Shea, Keane, Silvestre; Miller, Djemba-Djemba, Scholes; Bellion, Giggs; Smith

Richardson among the substitutes as well (along with Phil Neville and Ronaldo).
 
Sauxees Moi Hui said:
Correct. Check out this squad, against Norwich in the Premiership in the 04/05 season:

Howard; G. Neville, O'Shea, Keane, Silvestre; Miller, Djemba-Djemba, Scholes; Bellion, Giggs; Smith

Richardson among the substitutes as well (along with Phil Neville and Ronaldo).
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Howard
Neville's
Heinze
Ferdinand
Brown
Ronaldo
Rooney
Saha
van Nistelrooy
Giggs
Scholes
Solskjaer
Forlan
O'Shea
Fletcher
Keane
Silvestre
Pique and Rossi (neither featured heavily but you'd take both now, wouldn't you?)

That isn't a worse squad than today's, imo. There's quite a few world class players in there. There's only two now.
 
Sky1981 said:
Sacking mancini, mourinho pt1, di matteo, ranieri, grant, avb are hasty and classless, they werent doing so bad, heck rdm won them their cl

But 1st to 7th and getting sacked is not classless, it's a well deserved sacking all excuses aside.

Besides, like it or not, if chelsea didnt sack ranieri, they probably wont win the 2 league title


If we persevere with atkinson, we will never have fergie.
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Let him do a season.
 
Pink Moon said:
No chance United would be where they are if Ferguson was in charge but I do believe that they'd probably be around 4th place. I mean absolutely no disrespect but this is the worst United squad I've seen.



Like I've said to the other poster, it's okay SAF wanting to add a couple of players but there's no guarantee that they'd have been any good. Moyes maybe wanted Fellaini but didn't he also want Fabregas and Baines? Two world class players. If that's the kind of target's he's got in mind then what's the problem with that?
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Not been a fan that long then ?
 
Pink Moon said:
Howard
Neville's
Heinze
Ferdinand
Brown
Ronaldo
Rooney
Saha
van Nistelrooy
Giggs
Scholes
Solskjaer
Forlan
O'Shea
Fletcher
Keane
Silvestre
Pique and Rossi (neither featured heavily but you'd take both now, wouldn't you?)

That isn't a worse squad than today's, imo. There's quite a few world class players in there. There's only two now.
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That's 17 players, plus Pique and Rossi whom we really shouldn't count. Plus, Forlan was not exactly an amazing player for us, and Fletcher at that time was even more maligned than Cleverley is now, I think. So--lots of world-class players, yes. But very little cover available for those players, really. The first team was clearly better, but the quality of the squad, IMO, was much poorer.
 
Sir A1ex said:
By any sane reckoning yes. But not compared to the £245m Chelsea have spent, or the £230m City have spent. Liverpool have spent £154m and Spurs £172m. Even tight-fisted Arsenal have spent £148m in the period. It's certainly not exceptional.
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For the record - the net spend of the top clubs in the last two years (in millions of pounds):

Chelsea - 140
Arsenal - (14)
City - 72
Liverpool - 88
Manchester United - 89

Arsenal's figure in brackets represents a negative - they made a profit in the market. As they have done over the last 6 years.

The figures are not really representative of net spending in the longer term. City's net spend in the last 6 years totals £470m.
 
Will Absolute said:
Arsenal's figure in brackets represents a negative - they made a profit in the market. As they have done over the last 6 years.
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Doesn't look right, transfer League says:

13/14: £32.5m loss
12/13: £8.6m loss
11/12: £17.475 profit

Also, City did £90m net this summer alone... and another £64m net in the preivous two years.

Your figures are whack.
 
I just wonder how long we'll let this go on and what it'd take for him to go. We simply can't fall out of the champions league places in the name of giving an unproven manger time. Fergie was the club and hence fans had equal loyalty to him and the club. Moyes is not, the club comes before the manager for me.
 
Phil said:
I just wonder how long we'll let this go on and what it'd take for him to go. We simply can't fall out of the champions league places in the name of giving an unproven manger time. Fergie was the club and hence fans had equal loyalty to him and the club. Moyes is not, the club comes before the manager for me.
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Too late. I've accepted he is here for the season. Realistically he should have been sacked after Newcastle and Ole brought in. We would have been closer to fourth if he was. But now there is no point. The new manager will miss out of signings in January if it is true every new manager needs 2 and a half months to access players for there new club. Then your looking at once again a whole new entire back room as Moyes pose surely what leave him to be unemployed by himself.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Fair enough, but I would stress this isn't a "houlier than thou" thing (or not entirely anyway:smirk:). I just honestly don't think regularly changing manager is constructive - I've spent years watching other teams trying to achieve success like ours by doing the exact opposite of what we were doing. While two teams that constantly over-perfotmed for their financial situations over the period have been Arsenal and Everton.

Now, I know we were lucky to have the greatest manager of all time, making the decision to keep him easy, but that is partly with hindsight. He could easily have gone at several points, even as late as 2005 if our owners had been as trigger happy as some.
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:wenger: :lol:
 
smallred said:
i heard this earlier today and it makes perfect sense. players look like they dont want to play for him.

http://www.theguardian.com/football...ager-david-moyes-credentials-champions-league

one thing that is really worrying, is how there seems to be a huge amount of fans building a siege mentality in support of Moyes based off loyalty to fergie and are actually turning against the team now.
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I guess I would fall into that category. Though Im still trying not to think of it as turning against anyone, Im thinking of it as a painful adjustment and working out what needs to be done to bring it to the speediest resolution possible.


But dont you think the manager has to be the most important person at the club? More important than the players? If the players are questioning the manager, they dont want to play for him, you think that makes the manager the problem? As opposed to the attitude of the players?

Im not having a go BTW that is a genuine question, because more and more I agree with what you are saying in terms of the root cause of the problem. The question is, if this is the problem how to fix it. Change managers till we get one the players approve of and can relate to? Or back the manager to do what it takes to win the dressing room? My instinct tells me the latter but as you say that is probably more down to my loyalty to SAF in some ways, or at least having spent so long immersed in his football philosophy that it has ingrained itself in my psyche. There can be little doubt what SAF would make of this, "the manager has to be the most important person at the club" was a mantra for him, it doesnt matter if he has been here 6 months or 6 years in that sense.

But if you take a step back from that it is all about what path we take to the ultimate goal, of course, which is fixing what is going wrong at the club. At the end of the day it matters a lot less to me how we get there than that we do get there. Id rather the players rose up in revolt, overthrew the manager and we got someone a bit more charismatic, with more gravitas who could command the dressing room, than we stuck with Moyes until he had driven us into the ground. I guess SAF's way isnt the only way.
 
Sauxees Moi Hui said:
That's 17 players, plus Pique and Rossi whom we really shouldn't count. Plus, Forlan was not exactly an amazing player for us, and Fletcher at that time was even more maligned than Cleverley is now, I think. So--lots of world-class players, yes. But very little cover available for those players, really. The first team was clearly better, but the quality of the squad, IMO, was much poorer.
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Maybe poorer in depth overall, not that sure. But if given the option I'd prefer a squad with with 3-4 world class players and 2 huge future players. And I think Fletcher back then was better than Cleverley now.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Doesn't look right, transfer League says:

13/14: £32.5m loss
12/13: £8.6m loss
11/12: £17.475 profit

Also, City did £90m net this summer alone... and another £64m net in the preivous two years.

Your figures are whack.
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My figures are from 11/12 and 12/13, the last complete years, which excludes this summer, in which Arsenal obviously bought Ozil, which accounts for the difference. This summer is part of 13/14 which isn't over yet. I think both our facts are correct, but you only mentioned gross spend, and net spend has to be considered also.
 
acnumber9 said:
Maybe not but then I'm not saying he has to go right now though in all honesty if he was to be sacked then a caretaker until the end of the season wouldn't make much difference. If we continue as we are we aren't going to finish top 4 anyway. The scariest thing is the idea of backing him big in the transfer market.
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No, I'd rather he continued than a caretaker appointed. But yeah, if we end up outside the CL places, an early managerial appointment with him being given the responsibility of getting the players in is a must.
 
I find it totally laughable how people on here can put a sum of money on how much it would cost to sack him (27m/30m etc). How the flying feck would you know? No one outside of the United board and Moyes himself with know this and I very much doubt a club, that is run on such a shoe string, would give a manager a contract that didn't have some clause where he will be paid of much less than the rest of his contract, if he fails to achieve a,b or c in his contract.
Let's remember that, whilst we went chasing Moyes to come to us, he was hardly being courted by other clubs, so there can't of being much hard negotiating to get him here to manage our great club, so I doubt his contract would be a lucrative on the paying off side as we may think.

Pointless discussion anyway as he ain't going anywhere, regardless of where we finish in the top half of the table this season.

COME ON MOYES!
 
acnumber9 said:
Maybe not but then I'm not saying he has to go right now though in all honesty if he was to be sacked then a caretaker until the end of the season wouldn't make much difference. If we continue as we are we aren't going to finish top 4 anyway. The scariest thing is the idea of backing him big in the transfer market.
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Not sure it's the scariest thing... but I am genuinely worried about what kind of team Moyes would build if given lots of money and a responsibility to overhaul the squad.
 
Sauxees Moi Hui said:
That's 17 players, plus Pique and Rossi whom we really shouldn't count. Plus, Forlan was not exactly an amazing player for us, and Fletcher at that time was even more maligned than Cleverley is now, I think. So--lots of world-class players, yes. But very little cover available for those players, really. The first team was clearly better, but the quality of the squad, IMO, was much poorer.
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Should also be remembered that this was the "yong n lernin" 2004 Ronaldo, not the post 2007 beast Ronaldo.
 
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