Forget about the title walk last season, how about the fact we haven't finished outside the top 3 over 2 decades? Is that irrelevant too?
Moyes: Stick or Sack?
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Forget about the title walk last season, how about the fact we haven't finished outside the top 3 over 2 decades? Is that irrelevant too?
Why is it irrelevant exactly? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. How does taking over from Fergie automatically make the title win and our performances from last season irrelevant?
Ah, stating facts is "bollocks" and "irrelevant" but cooking up wonderfully convenient excuses for David Moyes is okay.
No, because where are they now? Long term it hasn't worked out has it? And we don't know if they would have improved under Benitez, from my recollection the results were beginning to get better under him, it just took a while for the club to shake off Mourinho and Benitez fell out with the owner because he wanted money to overhaul the squad.
Let's forget everything that shows Moyes in a bad light. It's only fair.
You'd have been finishing outside the top 3 this season even if Ferguson was still in charge imo.
I wonder how Moyes 5 years will turn out....
No, I don't claim to know whether Moyes can turn it round or not. But you claim to know that a new manager would turn it round, which I find odd.
My view is just that both options are massive unknowns, so we should stick with the original plan, rather than panicking and changing our minds at the first sign of trouble.
We're not then. We're underperforming, but massively and in the extreme? No. This is a team very much at the end of a cycle of success, who showed obvious signs of it last season, and were only ever going to show it a lot mroe this season. Plus everybody else has got better - we'd be top 4 easily in any of the last 10 seasons.
Yes, we should have strengthened in the summer, but we have no way of knowing what combination of Moye's judgment, Woodward's negotiating skills, the owners' funds and sheer bad luck / timing led to our failures. Anybody who claims to know what went on in each case is deluded.
Not notorious, but only because some are so ridiculous. They're on their 5th "permanent" manager since 2007 - they don't last much over a year on average! I'd certainly argue that both Ramos and Villas Boas should have been given longer.
We had the same manager for over 2 decades as well, so I don't see how that should matter now. It was never going to carry on being business as usual whoever we got.
No chance would Arsenal be above us and we would not have signed Fellaini. So i don't agree please explain!
No, it shows that Moyes isn't doing as well as Fergie, oddly enough.
But it's a totally different point to the "inherited a title winning squad"... unless you think that he has Cantona, Keane, Stam, Ronaldo etc at his disposal. What we did 10 years ago can't help Moyes today, I'm afraid.
We'd be top then? Cool!
If Sir Alex had stayed, I'd argue we'd almost certainly be top right now.
Why not? Maybe we shouldn't have been expecting to walk the league, or even win it, but why should we suddenly turn into a mid table club? Have we got mid table players? A few, yes, but by and large not. Have we got mid table money? No, not judging by us spending near £30 million on Fellaini. Have we got mid table staff? Maybe, but if we do it's only because Moyes made the incredible decision of sacking most of what connected - or would have connected - Fergie's United with Moyes' United.
Expecting a relatively comfortable top 4 finish should have been the least of our expectations. Other clubs manage to keep succeeding despite changing managers. Moyes had been a lot of years at Everton, and they are doing at least as well as they were under him. It remains to be seen if that will last, but what is certainly true is that we're doing far worse than did before Moyes.
I'm just not comfortable with the expectation that we're going to do far worse simply because we don't have Fergie anymore. I do think Fergie is the greatest manager in the history of football, but there are comparable managers out there. You can't hire someone like Moyes and then go "look, we said Fergie was irreplacable". We should have been able to get someone who could, if not exactly keep up the same trophy run, at least keep us competitive. I am becoming more and more doubtful whether that someone is or can ever be Moyes.
OK, not irrelevant, but massively over-stated. No more relevant than the fact that Fergie took on a side with Robson et al in it. Ie, it's something that helps, but shouldn't be taken to mean that with the players we have we should be winning the league, as is implied.
I honestly don't thnk Fergie would have this lot above 3rd or 4th this season, and we all know Moyes isn't Fergie.
I completely disagree. Firstly Fergie himself was probably worth about 15 point, secondly Fergie would have made some improvement to the squad by adding a couple of players. He mentioned before he retired that we had been working on our transfer targets but I get the feeling Moyes wanted to add his own players.
This is the worst point ever.
It was, in fact, a "title winning squad" (google it if you're confused). I'm not sure what those 4 players have to do with that either. Seems completely random.
I disazgree, new standing notwithstanding (whihc is a seperate argument).
And more to the point, Liverpool and Arsenal have improved so much that even being a couple of points worse off than last season suddenly puts us outside the top 4 (and Spurs and Everton improved enough that a couple more points puts us 7th).
Even with our current results, we'd be 4th or 5th most season.
There is no point in sacking Moyes right now.
If you think about it, historically he had made his teams play better in the second half than in first half of the season. So sacking him now will mean we put up with the worst of him to not even see the best of him.
I am pretty sure that team and the manager are capable of lot more than they are currently showing right now so I'd give it till summer for him to turn it around or at least make some improvements to how we approach and play the game.
If you think about it, historically he had made his teams play better in the second half than in first half of the season. So sacking him now will mean we put up with the worst of him to not even see the best of him.
I am pretty sure that team and the manager are capable of lot more than they are currently showing right now so I'd give it till summer for him to turn it around or at least make some improvements to how we approach and play the game.
Huh? 10pts worse than last season still puts us TOP.
Anyway, will Sir Alex have let Arsenal sign Ozil? Highly unlikely...
Without mentioning the Utd way of sticking by managers can anybody provide any evidence for why Moyes should stay in the job?
I'm sorry. Maybe I missed something. Where was it suggested that with the players we have we should be winning the league. And what does this point about Fergie not taking us above 3rd or 4th have to do with the 1986 bit we were discussing earlier?
I'm just trying to understand your point better here mate.
I think we'd be second or third presuming we didn't strengthen, but I was convinced before I knew Fergie left that the squad was going to get a big makeover, so we may have won the league had that happened. If Mourinho can do what he's doing with a fairly average Chelsea squad then there's no doubt Sir Alex could have at least come close to matching that with this one.
I apologise for your inability to comprehend / follow a few posts, I'll take it slower.
The only thing the fact that Fergie had us in the top 3 every season for 20 years and Moyes doesn't tells us is that Fergie was better than Moyes on current evidence (and most likely on any evidence we'll ever see). It has no bearing on how well Moyes should be doing with the current squad.
The argument people are making about how the current squad won the title last season does have a bearing on how well Moyes should be doing with the current squad. However, I would point out that it's a bit of a disengenuous argument, as the team was already in decline. You may or may not agree with this.
It's simple when you take the time to read and think, eh?
Is the season over? Yeah didnt think so.
With the players we have we shouldn't be losing to the dross we have this season. To lose games against the major teams in the league is a given but to be losing fixtures like we have and with the level of football we have played is awful.
It may well have been in decline but nowhere near the extent of what we are seeing on the pitch.I apologise for your inability to comprehend / follow a few posts, I'll take it slower.
The only thing the fact that Fergie had us in the top 3 every season for 20 years and Moyes doesn't tells us is that Fergie was better than Moyes on current evidence (and most likely on any evidence we'll ever see). It has no bearing on how well Moyes should be doing with the current squad.
The argument people are making about how the current squad won the title last season does have a bearing on how well Moyes should be doing with the current squad. However, I would point out that it's a bit of a disengenuous argument, as the team was already in decline. You may or may not agree with this.
It's simple when you take the time to read and think, eh?
It's been repeatedly stated throughout this thread that the fact we won the league is evidence of how badly we are underperforming. I'm just saying that it's not that simple, and it's easy to overstate the underperformance of the current players using this line. The squad needed refreshing, and more-over, RVP, who was probably the biggest factor last season, has been missing for much of the season.
Anyway, I'm off to play squash now.
Ahh thank you. I can see what you're saying now.
I think in some ways it is but you make some valid points too regarding the need to refresh the squad. RvP was a big factor but Rooney showed up when the Dutchman had a goal drought. Also the likes of Carrick and de Gea had big seasons too and played their parts so it wasn't just RvP. de Gea's saves kept us in games as well.
Anywho enjoy the squash!
http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/man-utd/news/in-numbers-records-broken-under-moyes_129028.html
How is this for the wrong records!!
How is this for the wrong records!!
Probably not, but this is clearly not the same team as last season - who were pretty rubbish anyway, despite winning the league.
Probably?! His average Chelsea team are doing okay I'm sure out better looking United team would have been top under Mourinho.
The fact we've lost 3 in a row doesn't scream 'better in second half' to me.
It's simple when you stop calling facts irrelevant and rubbish, when they're they're far more relevant than anything included in your posts.I apologise for your inability to comprehend / follow a few posts, I'll take it slower.
The only thing the fact that Fergie had us in the top 3 every season for 20 years and Moyes doesn't tells us is that Fergie was better than Moyes on current evidence (and most likely on any evidence we'll ever see). It has no bearing on how well Moyes should be doing with the current squad.
The argument people are making about how the current squad won the title last season does have a bearing on how well Moyes should be doing with the current squad. However, I would point out that it's a bit of a disengenuous argument, as the team was already in decline. You may or may not agree with this.
It's simple when you take the time to read and think, eh?
The quality of the squad and it's past success is absolutely relevant to how the squad should be doing now. Past performance is the one and only relevant indicator to one's quality, whether that's football or any other aspect of life. How well Apple or Google should be doing in the coming year is completely connected with their performances in recent years. That's how forecasts and estimates are made and that's how expectations are set pretty much everyone in the world.
http://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news/article/eikrem-signs-1282175.aspx
Something United took all summer to do, Solskjaer does in a couple of days. Signs a midfielder and the club didn't particular want to sell either.
Something United took all summer to do, Solskjaer does in a couple of days. Signs a midfielder and the club didn't particular want to sell either.
Nobody's bashing him for not running away with the league again this year. However much you think the players decline in a few months, we should still be comfortably in the top 4 not where we are atm.
Thats because they have a man that should be managing us. His reserves team record was great. I hope they his victory over us in the league finally gives Moyes the sack!
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