Moyes: Stick or Sack?

Moyes: Stick or Sack?

  • Stick

    Votes: 251 73.6%

  • Sack

    Votes: 90 26.4%
  • Total voters
    341
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Its modern football.



Its not people being narrow minded United fans or a "top red". Its stats.
Simply put, if Ferguson had these results this season, I guarantee that every sports news source and pundit would be debating if its time he should retire. I think its equally moronic to say that any fan can't dislike or criticise his manager. If every fan was asked to blindly fall in line and cheer a man who is not doing his job to the required standard then things would be very boring.



Everyone is in-titled to his or her opinion, Thats what makes football. Moyes didn't sign these players, but these are the same players that won the league last season. Any major league club has the right to have expectations. and when these expectations are not matched questions should be asked.
If questions are not asked then their fans are mindless. I respect and actually like Moyes btw
 
Varun_Utd said:
Nobody's bashing him for not running away with the league again this year. However much you think the players decline in a few months, we should still be comfortably in the top 4 not where we are atm.
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Probably the last time it's worth repeating, but I'm not denying that Moyes isn't doing well enough. We should be in the top 4. But we're not, IMO, doing badly enough to be talking about firing the manager.

Sadly some people are being a bit incosistent - admitting that it's unlikely any replacement for SAF would ahve us above 3rd or 4th, but also dismissing Moyes by comparing his performance against Fergie's / last season, against which it is indeed absoultely abysmal. We can't judge him on that, we should judge against expectations, which he is failing to meet, but not by the catastrophic degree people are making out.

Here's a way to look at it: On new year's eve, how many people on here were seriously talking about sacking Moyes? A few, admittedly, but they were a very small minority who werre mocked by the majority. We all knew the team wasn't gelling, had serious deficiencies and needed to improve, but we were happy to let Moyes go ahead and try and sort that.
And yet 7 days later, after 3 more matches about as shit as those preceding them in terms of the football we produced, all of which were very tight but went against us 2-1, everything is now unacceptable?

We all knew there would be ups and downs. Anybody who thought we'd just start the season shit and then improve all the way through without any backwards steps is deluded. Even in a good season we have blips where we lose a match or two.

I hate to use the word, but the current frenzy on here is essentially knee-jerk. And the minority who have always wanted to get Moyes out as soon as possible are just seizing the chance to get a load of other people who are understanably pissed off with where we are on their side.
 
I don't agree with the slack that Moyes is given simply because these aren't his players. If he was coming from another league then yes maybe that would apply but he is all too familiar with these players having gone against them for 10+ years. I believe a coach in his position (familiarity with the league and opposition) should be doing a far better job against teams outside of the top 5.

I'm not in favor of sacking him simply because we don't have a viable replacement. However he should be receiving his fair share of blame for these results. His best answer is to ship out players this month and bring in what he needs to succeed no matter the cost. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
 
.Rossi said:
Any major league club has the right to have expectations. and when these expectations are not matched questions should be asked.
If questions are not asked then their fans are mindless. I respect and actually like Moyes btw
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I agree with this 100%. If I didn't think questions should be asked I wouldn't be on here trying to give my opinion on them. I'd hate to thin that the club or the fans weren't at all time making sure they had a firm idea of what the best way forward is, and I can understand why opinioni is more split than at any point int he last 20 years. But my view is 100% that we stick with plan A and at least give it time to find out if it works.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I'm not denying that Moyes isn't doing well enough. We should be in the top 4. But we're not, IMO, doing badly enough to be talking about firing the manager.
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What's bad enough for you then if you think we should be in the top 4?
 
Sir A1ex said:
Probably the last time it's worth repeating, but I'm not denying that Moyes isn't doing well enough. We should be in the top 4. But we're not, IMO, doing badly enough to be talking about firing the manager.

Sadly some people are being a bit incosistent - admitting that it's unlikely any replacement for SAF would ahve us above 3rd or 4th, but also dismissing Moyes by comparing his performance against Fergie's / last season, against which it is indeed absoultely abysmal. We can't judge him on that, we should judge against expectations, which he is failing to meet, but not by the catastrophic degree people are making out.

Here's a way to look at it: On new year's eve, how many people on here were seriously talking about sacking Moyes? A few, admittedly, but they were a very small minority who werre mocked by the majority. We all knew the team wasn't gelling, had serious deficiencies and needed to improve, but we were happy to let Moyes go ahead and try and sort that.
And yet 7 days later, after 3 more matches about as shit as those preceding them in terms of the football we produced, all of which were very tight but went against us 2-1, everything is now unacceptable?

We all knew there would be ups and downs. Anybody who thought we'd just start the season shit and then improve all the way through without any backwards steps is deluded. Even in a good season we have blips where we lose a match or two.

I hate to use the word, but the current frenzy on here is essentially knee-jerk. And the minority who have always wanted to get Moyes out as soon as possible are just seizing the chance to get a load of other people who are understanably pissed off with where we are on their side.
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I do think we're doing terribly but yeah, firing Moyes now is out of the question.

Wait till end of season and then take a call is how I'd go about it.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I agree with this 100%. If I didn't think questions should be asked I wouldn't be on here trying to give my opinion on them. I'd hate to thin that the club or the fans weren't at all time making sure they had a firm idea of what the best way forward is, and I can understand why opinioni is more split than at any point int he last 20 years. But my view is 100% that we stick with plan A and at least give it time to find out if it works.
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I agree with this post.. I don't think we should sack him now, because we don't have a good plan B right now..
 
I want Moyes gone for one reason, the football we play is fecking diabolical at the moment, I could take finishing outside the cl places if we were playing entertaining attacking football but we're not.

While I am young enough that I've never known anything other than SAF, I know that attacking football is one of the biggest parts of our clubs DNA.

The excuse that anyone who wants Moyes out isn't a proper fan, or is spoilt or a glory hunter is a pathetic excuse to try and diminish the opinion of someone who disagrees with the keep Moyes narrative.
 
Varun_Utd said:
I do think we're doing terribly but yeah, firing Moyes now is out of the question.

Wait till end of season and then take a call is how I'd go about it.
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It raises an interesting question, tbf. If - and I don't believe this will happen - we wavered on him being the right man before the end of the season he'd surely have to go pretty much immediately after the season finishes if not before, given how important player recruitment is and how we seem to have suffered for not having people in place earlier in the summer to do deals. If we started looking for a manager over the summer it's pot luck as to whether you end up with the players you want.

That said, I suspect if Moyes was to go that we'd end up with a director of football, or something similar, and the recruitment might be taken away from the manager anyway.
 
Brophs said:
It raises an interesting question, tbf. If - and I don't believe this will happen - we wavered on him being the right man before the end of the season he'd surely have to go pretty much immediately after the season finishes if not before, given how important player recruitment is and how we seem to have suffered for not having people in place earlier in the summer to do deals. If we started looking for a manager over the summer it's pot luck as to whether you end up with the players you want.

That said, I suspect if Moyes was to go that we'd end up with a director of football, or something similar, and the recruitment might be taken away from the manager anyway.
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Absolutely, we cant have Moyes picking players to buy and then idiotically sacking him and getting a newer manager in later. That said, with the WC this year, deals will happen late regardless which is bad for us.

And i hope we never go with the DoF model. I hate it.
 
Danny1982 said:
What's bad enough for you then if you think we should be in the top 4?
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To be talking about firing the manager at this point? Would have to be unbelievably dire - ie getting outplayed (rather than just failing to outplay the opposition) in a lot of matches, and dropping towards the bottom half.

Maybe it's just my perception, but I'm not actually as shocked as most by our level of play - I don't think we've played great football for a long time, we've just got a bit less inspired than ever this season. Not what I'd hope for obviously, but not the unbelievable decline some seem to see.
And I don't think our position in the table is quite reflective of how we've played - I'd say scrapping it out for 4th (ie within a point or two) would be about fair. And most seasons, that's exactly where we'd be with our current tally.
 
Cal? said:
Anyway, will Sir Alex have let Arsenal sign Ozil? Highly unlikely...
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That's pure speculation, and if anything the evidence points to it being wrong.

Fergie specifically chose not to go for Ozil in the past, which isn't a good start, and whats more he's spent summer after summer failing to sign a midfielder, while we all pull our hair out. What makes you think he'd suddenly have changed?

Add in the fact that there's a question mark over whether we are prepared to pay £42m for anybody, and I'm not at all sure we'd have signed him

Or did you mean Fergie would somehow just veto the transfer to Arsenal?
 
Sir A1ex said:
To be talking about firing the manager at this point? Would have to be unbelievably dire - ie getting outplayed (rather than just failing to outplay the opposition) in a lot of matches, and dropping towards the bottom half.

Maybe it's just my perception, but I'm not actually as shocked as most by our level of play - I don't think we've played great football for a long time, we've just got a bit less inspired than ever this season. Not what I'd hope for obviously, but not the unbelievable decline some seem to see.
And I don't think our position in the table is quite reflective of how we've played - I'd say scrapping it out for 4th (ie within a point or two) would be about fair. And most seasons, that's exactly where we'd be with our current tally.
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I understand that and that we haven't played good football for a while now. But can you explain to me why Everton have miraculously became entertaining to watch in 6months?

I agree we could easily be fourth right now.. Not because we deserve too but because as much as people like to think the league has improved this season reality is we have just made the top more open. The 3 clubs above us as still suspect to dropping easy points.
 
acnumber9 said:
Without mentioning the Utd way of sticking by managers can anybody provide any evidence for why Moyes should stay in the job?
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Sacking managers mid season is never a good idea. I reckon that if we do end up sacking Moyes, the replacement has to be top drawer. You wont get that in Jan.
 
Mainoldo said:
I understand that and that we haven't played good football for a while now. But can you explain to me why Everton have miraculously became entertaining to watch in 6months?
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Not really, I don't watch them enough. No question Martinez is doing very well at the moment, and fair play to them, but they're not the first team to play some good football for a period - let's see how it pans out long term. It'll take a lot longer to persuade me that he's a better manager than Moyes. He may end up doing just that, in which case fair enough, they picked well - but I didn't hear many people on here clamouring for us to get him in last May.
 
IrishLegend said:
I want Moyes gone for one reason, the football we play is fecking diabolical at the moment, I could take finishing outside the cl places if we were playing entertaining attacking football but we're not.

While I am young enough that I've never known anything other than SAF, I know that attacking football is one of the biggest parts of our clubs DNA.

The excuse that anyone who wants Moyes out isn't a proper fan, or is spoilt or a glory hunter is a pathetic excuse to try and diminish the opinion of someone who disagrees with the keep Moyes narrative.
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That's part of the reason I'd prefer him to go. Even if he does turn it around, the prospect of the 'Moyes Way' for the next ten years is unattractive. I believe the club's tradition of open attacking football is likely to fall by the wayside under DM. The last few years have been hard to stomach - the football has been functional and frequently tumescent. More of the same for the next decade is too much.
 
acnumber9 said:
Without mentioning the Utd way of sticking by managers can anybody provide any evidence for why Moyes should stay in the job?
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1. We've not had anything like enough time to judge him yet. He's only brought in one player, who played 6 or 8 matches then got injured - we're nowhere near seeing what a DM United side looks like.

2. Because there's nothing to suggest anybody else would do any better. You can speculate all you want, but there's every chance that a new manager would just leave us back where we are now in 6 months and...

3. Going on from the above, once we've set that mold, then the obvious course of action is then to fire the next manager, and soon we are on a conveyor belt of failure which is...

4. The experience of most teams who chop and change all the time is that it doesn't help. Chelsea would almost certainly have done better if they hadn't got through so many managers in the last decade. Or, at a lower level more consistent with where we find ourselves right now, Spurs will never become a top 4 time while they insist on firing the manager every time things go badly for a few months.

5. The United Way. Seriously, in much the same way as I find it laughable the way City and Chelsea buy four new mega-bucks stars every summer and boot out the last lot, who were there supposed heros 12 months earlier, I find it pathetic the way they churn through managers. Think of the relationship we as fans had with Fergie, and how we pitied other clubs with their latest hired gun.
I value that. Not above everything - if I thought that the club's long term future was better served by rotating managers, then maybe I'd accept it as gone, but points 1 to 4 explain why I don't think that. So I'll stick with the existing plan / ethos, thanks.
 
In my opinion Moyes will still be our manager for at least three full seasons CL or not.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Absolutely, we cant have Moyes picking players to buy and then idiotically sacking him and getting a newer manager in later. That said, with the WC this year, deals will happen late regardless which is bad for us.

And i hope we never go with the DoF model. I hate it.
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the DoF model isn't a bad go if a club has stability, continuity, and consistency of philosophy within the club. If there's no harmony between DoF and coach then the wheels start to fall off
 
Sir A1ex said:
1. We've not had anything like enough time to judge him yet. He's only brought in one player, who played 6 or 8 matches then got injured - we're nowhere near seeing what a DM United side looks like.

2. Because there's nothing to suggest anybody else would do any better. You can speculate all you want, but there's every chance that a new manager would just leave us back where we are now in 6 months and...

3. Going on from the above, once we've set that mold, then the obvious course of action is then to fire the next manager, and soon we are on a conveyor belt of failure which is...

4. The experience of most teams who chop and change all the time is that it doesn't help. Chelsea would almost certainly have done better if they hadn't got through so many managers in the last decade. Or, at a lower level more consistent with where we find ourselves right now, Spurs will never become a top 4 time while they insist on firing the manager every time things go badly for a few months.

5. The United Way. Seriously, in much the same way as I find it laughable the way City and Chelsea buy four new mega-bucks stars every summer and boot out the last lot, who were there supposed heros 12 months earlier, I find it pathetic the way they churn through managers. Think of the relationship we as fans had with Fergie, and how we pitied other clubs with their latest hired gun.
I value that. Not above everything - if I thought that the club's long term future was better served by rotating managers, then maybe I'd accept it as gone, but points 1 to 4 explain why I don't think that. So I'll stick with the existing plan / ethos, thanks.
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To add to that, he's shown in his time at Everton that he's a talented manager. He might not have won anything but he did a good job under what were difficult financial conditions at times. Until we see him put his stamp on the side then we'll never know if that talent will be enough. Of course there's a chance it'll blow up in our faces, but that's the leap of faith we took and we don't know enough either way at the moment to make a definitive judgement as to whether he'll be a failure or a success.
 
Gladiator said:
the DoF model isn't a bad go if a club has stability, continuity, and consistency of philosophy within the club. If there's no harmony between DoF and coach then the wheels start to fall off
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I just dont like the idea of the manager deciding how he wants his team to play while someone else buys the players that will fit into that system. The manager should have 100% control.
 
Varun_Utd said:
No chance.
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I think there is every chance. The club have preached and preached for years about the importance of stability and continuity and used SAF as the perfect example of that. They would look pretty stupid if they hit the panic button and got rid of him after handing him a 6 year contract.

Im not saying I agree with it. Im just saying that’s how I think it will pan out.

Edit: Plus he needs a decent throw of the dice in the transfer market - last summers shambles aside.
 
Gladiator said:
the DoF model isn't a bad go if a club has stability, continuity, and consistency of philosophy within the club. If there's no harmony between DoF and coach then the wheels start to fall off
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In the UK the DoF model seems to be in place mainly at clubs who expect managerial upheaval and who want to separate the buying of players from the coaching of the side. Abroad there seems to be slightly more organic, collaborative side to it. Hopefully we're just catching up and we'll adapt to it, as it doesn't look to be going anywhere.
 
The reason we all harped about when he was appointed :

1. Youth : He's not proven it to be fair, Barkley hardly ever play under him. Januzaj was a given, it's not like he founded him or make him the player he is at the moment, he was ready and firing when Moyes come, and considering the lack of competition in wings, it's not a genious / breakthrough that Januzaj plays, and he has been playing marvelously since day 1, its not like MOyes persist with him because of his better judgement

2. Longevity, Loyalty, Contiunity : Let's face it, he won't leave unless we sack him. So we're pretty much have him in our club for as long as he got a contract extension, does he merits one or not is another matter

3. Scots : I give you that

4. Style of play : we are playing 6 months of dour football, I don't see style or any indication that things will get better

5. Class : Just because he doesn't talk much ala Mourinho, I don't think that constitutes class, he simply avoid the unnecessary limelight, and now that he can't run away from the attention, I don't think he's all that. His press conference weren't actually classy
 
Mainoldo said:
No chance would Arsenal be above us and we would not have signed Fellaini. So i don't agree please explain!
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Arsenal, Man City and Chelsea have significantly better squads than United do. No, he wouldn't have signed Fellaini, he'd just have signed Anderson. Or Cleverley. Or Young. Or Smalling. Or Zaha. Or, well, you get the point... Even if he'd signed quality there's no guarantee he'd have utilised them properly (see Kagawa).

No chance United would be where they are if Ferguson was in charge but I do believe that they'd probably be around 4th place. I mean absolutely no disrespect but this is the worst United squad I've seen.


QuackQuack said:
I completely disagree. Firstly Fergie himself was probably worth about 15 point, secondly Fergie would have made some improvement to the squad by adding a couple of players. He mentioned before he retired that we had been working on our transfer targets but I get the feeling Moyes wanted to add his own players.
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Like I've said to the other poster, it's okay SAF wanting to add a couple of players but there's no guarantee that they'd have been any good. Moyes maybe wanted Fellaini but didn't he also want Fabregas and Baines? Two world class players. If that's the kind of target's he's got in mind then what's the problem with that?
 
Varun_Utd said:
I just dont like the idea of the manager deciding how he wants his team to play while someone else buys the players that will fit into that system. The manager should have 100% control.
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That's why i made the point on harmony. The two need to be of the same accord. I think it would be weird if the manager and DOF had no discussion over targets
 
Sky1981 said:
The reason we all harped about when he was appointed :

1. Youth : He's not proven it to be fair, Barkley hardly ever play under him. Januzaj was a given, it's not like he founded him or make him the player he is at the moment, he was ready and firing when Moyes come, and considering the lack of competition in wings, it's not a genious / breakthrough that Januzaj plays, and he has been playing marvelously since day 1, its not like MOyes persist with him because of his better judgement

2. Longevity, Loyalty, Contiunity : Let's face it, he won't leave unless we sack him. So we're pretty much have him in our club for as long as he got a contract extension, does he merits one or not is another matter

3. Scots : I give you that

4. Style of play : we are playing 6 months of dour football, I don't see style or any indication that things will get better

5. Class : Just because he doesn't talk much ala Mourinho, I don't think that constitutes class, he simply avoid the unnecessary limelight, and now that he can't run away from the attention, I don't think he's all that. His press conference weren't actually classy
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1. Moyes loaned Barkley out for first team football in the Championship. You can't say that the experience he gained from that hasn't been vital in his development as a player.

4. You've been playing unimaginative/unattractive football for longer than 6 months.
 
Brophs said:
In the UK the DoF model seems to be in place mainly at clubs who expect managerial upheaval and who want to separate the buying of players from the coaching of the side. Abroad there seems to be slightly more organic, collaborative side to it. Hopefully we're just catching up and we'll adapt to it, as it doesn't look to be going anywhere.
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Yes I agree. Bayern is a good example. The DoF works well with the board and their expectations and imparts that to the manager. There is still room for error as egos can start to work against each other but I think it's certainly a model worth looking at. Just looking at examples that have failed isn't a good enough reason to say it won't work. It just highlights the flaws and drawbacks of using such a model. I think people should be wise to the fact that there's no real perfect model no matter how ideal. Each one has its pitfalls.
 
Rooney24 said:
I think there is every chance. The club have preached and preached for years about the importance of stability and continuity and used SAF as the perfect example of that. They would look pretty stupid if they hit the panic button and got rid of him after handing him a 6 year contract.

Im not saying I agree with it. Im just saying that’s how I think it will pan out.

Edit: Plus he needs a decent throw of the dice in the transfer market - last summers shambles aside.
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Preaching about it is all well and good when you have Sir Alex landing titles after titles with CL place not even a doubt. things will change if we dont get into the CL. And the Glazers are businessmen first and foremost, looking stupid would not be a major concern specially considering it'd be Sir Alex that the blame will go onto not them.
 
Pink Moon said:
1. Moyes loaned Barkley out for first team football in the Championship. You can't say that the experience he gained from that hasn't been vital in his development as a player.

4. You've been playing unimaginative/unattractive football for longer than 6 months.
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It works though

But this season it doesn't work. Players and injuries aside, he didn't do anything to rectify the situation, at least temporarilly while carrick, rvp are injured. If he did something, anything that resembles some tactical nous and still losing, at least he's trying

At this point he just look clueless and keep on praying that somehow Valencia's crosses can find its target, while our strikers are shit in the air. Clearly not playing to our strenght, we're not Barcelona, but surely we can play a pass or two from the middle with the likes of Kagawa

2 man midfield, never once he tries to bolster it up 3 man, it's clear as broad daylight we don't have the personel to go 2 man midfield

All I'm saying is, he doesn't strike me as he can change it anytime soon bar RvP playing a bllinder every game, there's simply no workable plan A at the moment.
 
The DoF system is a shambles,
Varun_Utd said:
I just dont like the idea of the manager deciding how he wants his team to play while someone else buys the players that will fit into that system. The manager should have 100% control.
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Spot on.

Problem is Moyes isn't a man I'd trust with 100% control if early indications are anything to go by.
 
Why do people always lump in City with Chelsea when talking about the way they act? It's weird. They're owners have called everything spot on. Hughes was a moron and they replaced him with a much better, more proven, trophy-winning manager in Mancini who was a success. Mancini himself was only dismissed after he fell out with half the squad. By all accounts, his position was untenable. They've removed idiots like Garry Cook from the set up and employed proven men from Barcelona to oversee transfer activity. Their is little to no Tan-like shenanigans from the owners themselves. The squad itself, contrary to some bullshit above, has largely remained quite similar, with players like Barry, Milner and Lescott proving to be well valued during their good spells. Come on, I hate it when opposition fans come out with bollocks about our players and set up so let's not stoop to their level. Ultimately, the crux of my point is actually, there is nothing embarrassing about sacking the wrong manager. Keeping him on for the sake of saving said embarrassment is just downright ridiculous. Mock City all you like, but at least their board isn't caught up in some warped "the City way" arrogance.
 
I was thinking about this this morning and I would not be surprised if, in the summer, Gollum was moved on and you went after Martinez. His brand of football is more suited to what you expect as fans. It would certainly be an arse about face way of getting to the right appointment though.
 
Reasons for keeping him: Rooney has improved.
??????


Reasons for getting rid: too many to mention.


You could also argue that Rooney has upped his game in the hope of attracting interest. If Moyes had shown me something, anything, to take on board as a positive, I'd be in favour of sticking. Sadly, he hasn't.

No doubt he'll now go on to win the fecking Champion's League so feel free to bump this at the end of the season. :lol:
 
Kag said:
Mancini himself was only dismissed after he fell out with half the squad.
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Manager wise, sacking the manager who won them their first league title in half a century because he came 2nd the next season comes across as pretty pathetic. Mayb there's more to it, as you say, but even then the situation is pretty farcical when the manager goes because of players. Should always be the other way round.

Kag said:
The squad itself, contrary to some bullshit above, has largely remained quite similar.
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Really?

Did I dream Adam Johnson, Carlos Tevez, Craig Bellamy, Emmanuel Adebayor, Gareth Barry, Jerome Boateng, Jo, Joleon Lescott, Kolo Toure, Maicon, Mario Balotelli, Nigel De Jong, Owen Hargreaves, Patrick Viera, Robinho, Roque Santa Cruz, Scott Sinclair, Shaun Wright Phillips, Shay Given, Sylvinho, Tal Ben-Haim and Wayne Bridge?

Sorry, but that's 22 players that cost them over £280m, all bought and then binned again within the 5 years they've been here. Are you seriously asking why people lump them in with Chelsea?
 
Sir A1ex said:
Manager wise, sacking the manager who won them their first league title in half a century because he came 2nd the next season comes across as pretty pathetic. Mayb there's more to it, as you say, but even then the situation is pretty farcical when the manager goes because of players. Should always be the other way round.



Really?

Did I dream Adam Johnson, Carlos Tevez, Craig Bellamy, Emmanuel Adebayor, Gareth Barry, Jerome Boateng, Jo, Joleon Lescott, Kolo Toure, Maicon, Mario Balotelli, Nigel De Jong, Owen Hargreaves, Patrick Viera, Robinho, Roque Santa Cruz, Scott Sinclair, Shaun Wright Phillips, Shay Given, Sylvinho, Tal Ben-Haim and Wayne Bridge?

Sorry, but that's 22 players that cost them over £280m, all bought and then binned again within the 5 years they've been here. Are you seriously asking why people lump them in with Chelsea?
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That's quite true.
 
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