Moyes: Stick or Sack?

Moyes: Stick or Sack?

  • Stick

    Votes: 251 73.6%

  • Sack

    Votes: 90 26.4%
  • Total voters
    341
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Sir A1ex said:
Not at the beginning we weren't.

And actually, the first couple of times we dipped off we were far from "safe in the knowledge that he'd absolutely bring us back"... don't forget that there were a fair number of fans questioniong whether he should stay, and a whole lot of opposition fans celebrating his demise, 10 years ago. Even those who backed him knew it was an act of faith and hope, more than a dead cert.

It's only really been since 2007 that pretty much everybody in football accepted that he would always be able to get us back to the top, no matter what.
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There's a huge difference. First off SAF inherited a team that hasn't won the league in a while. He also inherited a good team, but not a team that was pushing for the title year after year.
Fergie as well broke the domestic domination of Celtic and Rangers with Aberdeen, he enjoyed European success as well.

Moyes inherited a champions team. A team that has won the league multiple times and was amidst the best in Europe not so long ago. He inherited the staff which worked with one of the best players around for a long period(the majority of which he sacked).

Moyes on the other hand didn't win anything with a side, better than Wigan, Portsmouth, Middlesbrough, Birmingham, Swansea - all of which won the FA Cup or League cup during those years.

If Fergie didn't win anything early in his tenure he at least had the background to be given chance after chance. Moyes on the other hand has the background of only being Scottish.
 
The 24% seem to make an awful lot of noise don't they.
 
mickeza said:
Benitez did it with Inter, he took over an ageing treble winning side who had given everything for their previous manager and massively overachieved. Contrary to what people think on here, Rafael Benitez is a very good manager and they plummeted. Now Mourinho was only there for there years, Ferguson was here for twenty seven.
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I'm not sure I understand which side you're arguing for here. Yes, Rafael Benitez did not get the same out of Inter as Mourinho. He was then sacked in December, and the new manager managed to finish second in the league, with six points less than they managed the previous season.

If you're using Benitez as an argument, surely the conclusion is that we should sack Moyes?
 
One of the main problems as I see it is that if we don't get top 4 this season I think it's going to be so difficult to challenge for the league next season as we'll have to play in the Europa which, as history tells us, absolutely kills teams. I saw it mentioned in some article yesterday that Moyes is considering whether to reduce the size of the squad for next season for more players get more games. But if you're in the Europa you have to have a bloated squad otherwise you'll end up riven with injuries.

The whole competition has the potential to be a massive pain in the arse for us.
 
Enigma_87 said:
There's a huge difference. First off SAF inherited a team that hasn't won the league in a while. He also inherited a good team, but not a team that was pushing for the title year after year.
Fergie as well broke the domestic domination of Celtic and Rangers with Aberdeen, he enjoyed European success as well.

Moyes inherited a champions team. A team that has won the league multiple times and was amidst the best in Europe not so long ago. He inherited the staff which worked with one of the best players around for a long period(the majority of which he sacked).
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Look, we all know about how Moyes hasn't won anything preivously. Let's stick to what he will or won't win with United.

As far as the teams they inherited go, you could look at this totally the other way round...

Regarding the current squad, it's pretty accepted that teams have cycles, and need massively refreshing every few years, and it's hard to argue against teh point that the current team started gettign good around 2006, peaked around 2009, and haas been looking distinclty tired since abour 2012. I'm not at all sure that's an ideal squad to inherit, and more to the point, when Fergie has found himself in this situation before, it has led to a season or two without a trophy while he rebuilds.

Looking back at 1986, you can make a very strong case that a team with the likes of Robson, Whiteside, McGrath and Strachan in it was massively under-performing, and a decent manager should have been able to get them winning stuff very quickly. I'd say that would be a very harsh judgment, as a manager needs time to get his own team in place. But it's something that the people arguing that Moyes has inherited a great team could easily argue by the same logic, shoudl they so chose.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I'll agree with that, but possibly not in the way you meant it.:rolleyes:



No, it isn't at all. It's obvious that the change of manager has not yielded a good outcome in terms of how we've played in the first 5 months. BUt there are two things we don't know:

a) Whether anybody else would have done better - It's been said a million times that it was only SAF's influence that won us the title, and the players aren't as good as the top three's. So what makes everybody convinced that a different manager would have just dropped in and got us playing well within 5 months? The obvious point is that we should have bought in the summer, but it's not like we didn't try - our failure seems as much down to Woodward and the money-men as the manager, who did his part in identifying targets.

b) How things will go in the longer term. 5 months just isn't long enough to know what a Moyes United team looks like. Fergie's early yers are well documented, and somebody mentioned that Wenger lost 7 matches by xmas in his first season. Making a judgment on this short a period is just massively flawed. You can say that you can judged by the style of football we are playing, but clearly Moyes isn't sending them out with instructions to play shit, boring, incompetent football - for one reason or another, his plans just aren't being executed at the moment.

This isn't to say that things are guaranteed to turn round... we may find that in another year they still aren't executing his plans, or they are but his plans aren't yielding results. And at some point there does come the time to decide it's not working. But it isn't after 5 months, with only one new player, as a reaction to three matches when our two best strikers are injured.
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A) I'm guessing a different man wouldve gone into the transfer market and done some good work instead of only signing Fellaini. Perhaps a different manager would've tried to move our football forward instead of continuing with this recent style of play. I'm just saying its difficult for me to believe that another manager would've gotten so many things wrong in the first 5 months. I dread what he could do In a few years.
B) Sir Alex and Wenger took over clubs in vastly different circumstances. Neither took on defending champions who according to reports have money to burn in the market. None took over a club with an academy that was producing the quality of players we have been in recent years. They both had to make big changes to be successful and to show how good a situation moyes has taken over he didn't feel we needed such big changes.

5 months is a short time, with that I agree, but we've seen a 5 months of pure failure. Disappointment after disappointment. There's no silver lining in the job he's done so far, why let this carry on? What about the consequences of this if it really goes pear shaped. What happens if we fail to reach the top 4 and rooney/van persie bolt, with the old guard who are quite clearly past it not renewing then we're gonna need to rebuild the side again, do we trust the man that has led us to that predicament?

I'd like to know what the cut off is in the minds of those that believe we should give a much long time than this. Do we give him the full 6 to stamp his authority onto the team regardless of results? If not, when do we call it a day because judging by our policy of not changing managers we're gonna foolishly keep him for quite some time before pulling the trigger.
 
The picture on BBC Sport's front page is so heartbreaking that I'm now desperate for Moyes to succeed. He looks utterly broken, and sacking him now would be akin to kicking a puppy with a broken leg.
 
Mourinho is exactly SAF 27 years ago

Cocky, Confident, Succesful, they're both enigma at their age (SAF with Aberdeen, and Mourinho with Porto)

SAF shoulda choose him if he's looking for someone in his mould

The only mould he has in common with Moyes is the color their passport
 
Brophs said:
One of the main problems as I see it is that if we don't get top 4 this season I think it's going to be so difficult to challenge for the league next season as we'll have to play in the Europa.
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You're assuming we'll finish high enough to get into the Europa League...
 
Amir said:
You're assuming we'll finish high enough to get into the Europa League...
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I didn't think anyone would bother with that joke but since I think we're going to get to the league cup final and since City are going to qualify for the CL I'd say it's pretty unlikely that we won't.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Look, we all know about how Moyes hasn't won anything preivously. Let's stick to what he will or won't win with United.
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It doesn't work like that. If you have a big and successful resume it's much more likely to be given more time on the job. What is the chance that Moyes will never ever win a cup or the title, no matter how much money he has at his disposal? It's not like a lot of managers with bigger and better resume failed to do so at Chelsea and City.

If his was the case then we could've easily appointed Pardew after his one good season. What credentials has Moyes for the job apart from solid 7th place finish with Everton side?

Sir A1ex said:
As far as the teams they inherited go, you could look at this totally the other way round...

Regarding the current squad, it's pretty accepted that teams have cycles, and need massively refreshing every few years, and it's hard to argue against teh point that the current team started gettign good around 2006, peaked around 2009, and haas been looking distinclty tired since abour 2012. I'm not at all sure that's an ideal squad to inherit, and more to the point, when Fergie has found himself in this situation before, it has led to a season or two without a trophy while he rebuilds.

Looking back at 1986, you can make a very strong case that a team with the likes of Robson, Whiteside, McGrath and Strachan in it was massively under-performing, and a decent manager should have been able to get them winning stuff very quickly. I'd say that would be a very harsh judgment, as a manager needs time to get his own team in place. But it's something that the people arguing that Moyes has inherited a great team could easily argue by the same logic, shoudl they so chose.
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Do you honestly believe that our current squad has the quality to be 7th in the table right now, behind his very own Everton, Tottenham and Liverpool? Is our squad worse than Swansea to lose a FA cup tie at home? Or is it worse than S'land side to lose the League cup tie?

Fergie when taking over in his second season United finished 2nd. In his first he finished higher than when he took over.

Sir A1ex said:
Looking back at 1986, you can make a very strong case that a team with the likes of Robson, Whiteside, McGrath and Strachan in it was massively under-performing, and a decent manager should have been able to get them winning stuff very quickly.
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Well this is what we have now, apart from decent manager.
 
RooneyLegend said:
I'd like to know what the cut off is in the minds of those that believe we should give a much long time than this. Do we give him the full 6 to stamp his authority onto the team regardless of results? If not, when do we call it a day because judging by our policy of not changing managers we're gonna foolishly keep him for quite some time before pulling the trigger.
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No, the full 6 would be hard to justify if things don't get better. It's hard to put a definitive cut-off on this, as it's relative to how badly we're doing.

At a push, I'd say that if we remain where we are in terms of performances and results, I'd give it until next xmas. By that point he'd have had a) A full summer to properly sort out transfers and b) plenty of time to get the squad playing how he wants. If we found oursleves in 7th, then getting somebody new in would at least give us the possibility of new-manager-bounce pushging us up into the top 4.

If we were playnig a bit better, and in the top 4, but not challenging for the title, I'd definitely give him the rest of next season, and then continue to reassess based on looking for signs of continued gradual improvement. Maybe if we were still not challengin by xmas the next season, it might be time to have a think - certainly if we got to the end of season three without being in the title reckoning I'd say his time may be up.

Other than that, as long as we are in the title fight, I'd be happy to keep him pretty indefinitely. Four or five years without a title isn't the end of the world that most people instinctively feel it is (though I'd hope to make ammends with a Cup or two), and if we are fully competing with the moneybags teams, it would be hard to argue that another manager could do better.
 
Brophs said:
I didn't think anyone would bother with that joke but since I think we're going to get to the league cup final and since City are going to qualify for the CL I'd say it's pretty unlikely that we won't.
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The runner up of Carling Cup doesn't go to Europa, regardless if the winner goes to UCL or not.
 
oleonenumber20 said:
stick with him and let him build his team. The other teams around us have improved their squads and we didn't in the summer. Perhaps Moyes should have identified the weaknesses in the squad sooner but he was probably thinking that a squad of players that won the league last season might be performing a bit better this season. We are going through bad form, but would Fergie really have done much better. Rooney would have been sold in the Summer and Chelsea would have had the league wrapped up by now if they had Rooney this season. Fergie would have also brought Fellaini, I still don't think it was a panic buy by Moyes I think it was a panic buy from the directors.

He has now identified his targets and they are good players but we may have to wait til the summer to buy them. I'm liking the passion I see from Moyes, yes I would like to see a better system in our play but I think that will come once he gets his players in. We played well last night apart from we are creating nothing in the final 3rd, but we pressed high and Sunderland got lucky. We need to sure up our defensive lines get tighter at the back before we can turn our from around.

It might be ugly for a while but it will come. But this is football this is why we love the game
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Considering he hasn't taken us outside the top 3 in over 20 years, I'd say it's pretty much guaranteed that he'd be doing much much better.

Sir Alex may have sold Rooney, and he's likely to have signed other players, so what if Chelsea have it all wrapped up by now, we won't be 7th!!!
 
Brophs said:
I didn't think anyone would bother with that joke but since I think we're going to get to the league cup final and since City are going to qualify for the CL I'd say it's pretty unlikely that we won't.
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You're assuming that we're going to get to the league cup final...
 
Brophs said:
I didn't think anyone would bother with that joke but since I think we're going to get to the league cup final and since City are going to qualify for the CL I'd say it's pretty unlikely that we won't.
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I don't think at this rate beating Sunderland is a given (although it looks likely we're still favorite and probably will nick a win at OT)
 
Enigma_87 said:
It doesn't work like that. If you have a big and successful resume it's much more likely to be given more time on the job. What is the chance that Moyes will never ever win a cup or the title, no matter how much money he has at his disposal? It's not like a lot of managers with bigger and better resume failed to do so at Chelsea and City.

If his was the case then we could've easily appointed Pardew after his one good season. What credentials has Moyes for the job apart from solid 7th place finish with Everton side?.
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As I say, you're just re-hashing the same pionts that were made when we appointed him. We know all this.

If you have a big and successful resume it's much more likely to be given more time on the job? Yes, but if you have a big and successful resume it's much more likely to be given the job in the first place and we did give it to him, so this point is irrelevant.

Enigma_87 said:
Do you honestly believe that our current squad has the quality to be 7th in the table right now, behind his very own Everton, Tottenham and Liverpool? Is our squad worse than Swansea to lose a FA cup tie at home? Or is it worse than S'land side to lose the League cup tie?
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No, I've already said it's not good enough. Why do people keep interpreting the idea that we should give Moyes time to sort this mess out as the belief that everything is fine?

But the claim that this is a title-winning array of players is obviously disengenuous.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Fair enough, I was really thinking about Barca form the last 10 years or so (during which they became regarded as the best club team ever seen:smirk:).
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If only that was true, if they stuck with Rijkaard after that season where they finished 3rd (not fecking 7th!!!) and they sold Xavi & some who fell out with him, we'd probably have beaten the Scousers' CL record by now. :(
 
Sky1981 said:
I don't think at this rate beating Sunderland is a given (although it looks likely we're still favorite and probably will nick a win at OT)
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I'm really not so sure. At some point we'll catch a break, and hopefully use that to start gaining some confidence and playing some football, but God knows whether that will be in time for the 2nd leg. At the moment we're just in a vicious cycle of under-performance, dodgy decisions and a lack of confidence.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I'm really not so sure. At some point we'll catch a break, and hopefully use that to start gaining some confidence and playing some football, but God knows whether that will be in time for the 2nd leg. At the moment we're just in a vicious cycle of under-performance, dodgy decisions and a lack of confidence.
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I honestly don't care about the league cup, 3pts against Swansea this weekend please.
 
jojojo said:
I know what you mean, but I can see him turning it round. He's done the baptism with fire bit now he's got to show what he's made of.

I think the squad is capable of better than this. I personally find it easier to believe that SAF has made one mistake in the handover, not 20 of them. It's up to Moyes to show he can rise to the challenge.

The team needs its passion and confidence back - Moyes has a responsibility there. If they aren't responding to his training methods, maybe he'd better look at his methods - pride comes before a fall. He needs to manage the return of players from injury. He needs to make sure the rotation is keeping his backups fresh, hard when results are going against you, but that's his job.

January recruitment? Would be nice, but he can't bank on it. A good addition would add to Moyes' hopeful signs list, but he's got to make this team work.

Personally, I think this next few month is the best test possible for him. Maybe he'll show that patience is all that's required. If he doesn't? As I've said before, if he can't handle this squad, I don't see how they can let him handle the budget.
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Even if he manages all of the above, which I highly doubt, there's still this issue: What's his plan?

The team doesn't know how it's supposed to play. We don't look like we've got any other plan than the Valencia panic-pass out right. Honestly, what is Moyes trying to do in terms of how we're playing football? As of now it basically seems like he's picking the team and that's it.

He himself bemoans lack of creativity. Perhaps we need to look at how to get our creative players to function in the team?

This, I very much doubt he's able to do. He's always played the same way at Everton, with minor alterations, getting the ball out wide and crossing it. Baines was his most important attacker last year FFS. I just don't think he knows how to get a team to play attacking football.
 
Cal? said:
I honestly don't care about the league cup, 3pts against Swansea this weekend please.
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I agree to an extent - ie I do care (after all, it worked wonders for us in 2006), but I'd rather take the 3 points.

But it does have a big impact with regards to a potential UEFA place, for better or for worse.
 
On the brighter note, since we don't have to worry about FA cups n league cups anymore, that would bring our focus back to the league games.
 
I'm disappointed with Moyes, I don't think he's being adventurous enough for a Manchester United manager, if we are going to lose, go down with 7 forwards on the pitch fighting for the goals, not the meek way we have been doing recently.

However, I'm probably more disappointed with the players. A squad that strolled the league last year is, even taking into account the improvement in other squads, far, far better than the results and individual performances they've given this season. Those players should be doing better than this with mickey fecking mouse in the dugout never mind Moyes.
 
The Don said:
Bollocks. He's the one saying we should be coached to play like a Spanish team. You wanna watch that tika taka bullshit? Go support a Spanish team. I'd rather lose than watch that shite every week.
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That's your opinion. Everyone doesn't think technical football is "shite". So it's strange to taunt someone asking them to support a Spanish club if they feel we should play in a different manner.

And your first line of the previous post made no sense. Supporting a club doesn't mean you can hold an opinion. I will always cheer united on no matter who is in charge but it doesn't mean I have to belief that Moyes is brilliant and good enough for united when it seems to not be the case at all.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
I'm disappointed with Moyes, I don't think he's being adventurous enough for a Manchester United manager, if we are going to lose, go down with 7 forwards on the pitch fighting for the goals, not the meek way we have been doing recently.

However, I'm probably more disappointed with the players. A squad that strolled the league last year is, even taking into account the improvement in other squads, far, far better than the results and individual performances they've given this season. Those players should be doing better than this with mickey fecking mouse in the dugout never mind Moyes.
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Didn't he do that when we lost the other day? It was comical, no shape whatsoever. That is not the answer if the entire team loses its shape.
 
Stookie said:
Got to stick. This is still Fergies team. I think United may continue to have the same difficulties until Moyes makes this team his own. Will he be given that amount of time though?
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What do you mean by his own team? He shouldn't have to change that much. Which manager goes to a successful new club and is given the money and licence to completely change it. The changes should IMO never be major when you've already got a successful team full of quality. A few players here and there is all that is needed, so it's never really going to be Moyes' team unless he's good enough to be here for 5 years.
 
It is increasingly looking like he has lost the dressing room. The issue now is whether we allow him to weed out the apparent adverse influence in the dressing room or get rid of the manager that's seemingly responsible for the state of affairs. Ultimately football will remain a results business and the current losing streak continues to the end of the month then we could be seeing managerial changes.
 
gooDevil said:
The 19% sure are loud.

We're a sticky group of fans, the goo of loyalty is upon us.
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No. It's Just that the 80% in favor of "stick" include a good majority who probably don't think he's good enough and should be sacked if he doesn't get 4th.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Look, we all know about how Moyes hasn't won anything preivously. Let's stick to what he will or won't win with United.

As far as the teams they inherited go, you could look at this totally the other way round...

Regarding the current squad, it's pretty accepted that teams have cycles, and need massively refreshing every few years, and it's hard to argue against teh point that the current team started gettign good around 2006, peaked around 2009, and haas been looking distinclty tired since abour 2012. I'm not at all sure that's an ideal squad to inherit, and more to the point, when Fergie has found himself in this situation before, it has led to a season or two without a trophy while he rebuilds.

Looking back at 1986, you can make a very strong case that a team with the likes of Robson, Whiteside, McGrath and Strachan in it was massively under-performing, and a decent manager should have been able to get them winning stuff very quickly. I'd say that would be a very harsh judgment, as a manager needs time to get his own team in place. But it's something that the people arguing that Moyes has inherited a great team could easily argue by the same logic, shoudl they so chose.
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But if you're going to look at 1986, you need to look beyond this context. Look at the league position when SAF took over versus Moyes. Look at the fact that we had a drinking culture with the playing staff that Sir Alex had to rid of.

Look at the fact that Sir Alex was tasked with rebuilding the club. The further you look at it, the more you realise the circumstances couldnt be more different. It's a question of relevance and I'm not sure how relevant 1986 is to what's happening now. We hadn won the title in years at that time. Now, we've won it quite a lot in recent history. The circumstances surrounding it couldn't be more stark if you ask me. If we're going to talk about these aforementioned players "massively under-performing, perhaps we should look at the deeper reasons why that could be. I dont think it's enough to say "a decent manager should have been able to get them winning stuff very quickly". Is that how football works all the time with such situations?
 
Sir A1ex said:
As I say, you're just re-hashing the same pionts that were made when we appointed him. We know all this.

If you have a big and successful resume it's much more likely to be given more time on the job? Yes, but if you have a big and successful resume it's much more likely to be given the job in the first place and we did give it to him, so this point is irrelevant.
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Point is relevant because a lot believe Moyes can turn it around just because he was given the job, and just because he was chosen by Fergie. But on what basis, aside of what the board and Fergie thinks, is the possibility of turning it around? Especially with his resume. Yes 5 months are not a lot, nor a whole season for that matter, but it can hardly be worse can it? As somebody else mentioned I can't see even one silver lining, it's just straight downhill. If it continues throughout the whole season it's a wise act to cut out the losses and look for a better solution immediately after the season ends.

Sir A1ex said:
No, I've already said it's not good enough. Why do people keep interpreting the idea that we should give Moyes time to sort this mess out as the belief that everything is fine?

But the claim that this is a title-winning array of players is obviously disengenuous.
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Obviously that array of players walked the title last year. Obviously he had the cash to strengthen the team in the Summer. If you don't believe that this side is massively, and by massively I mean in the extremes, underperforming then we are not on the same page.

AVB was already sacked for similar if not better results this year and Tottenham are not that notorious for changing managers here and there.
 
Gladiator said:
I dont think it's enough to say "a decent manager should have been able to get them winning stuff very quickly". Is that how football works all the time with such situations?
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Exactly, thank you.

Now can we all stop with this "Moyes inherited a title winning squad" bollocks. That's not how it works.

Moyes inherited what, years before it even became available, was already being called the hardest job in football. He's not making a great job of it so far, but the fact that we won the title last year is pretty much irrelevant.
 
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