I wouldn't be surprised of Dembele could play defensive midfielder either, although that's not proven.
Moussa Dembele
- Thread starter The Neviller
- Start date
I've been creaming over Dembele for a very long time. I'm glad others are starting to appreciate him as a player now.
I notice some believe the praise may be a bit over the top. It might be. But it is slightly worrying how we were torn apart at times at Everton by Fellaini, and even further by Dembele. The question needs to be asked - what's going to happen when we face Yaya Toure again? We'll be destroyed if all stays the same. I understand it sounds pessimistic and shows no faith in the team - but I think I'm speaking realistically here. We haven't changed much at all in the midfield since last season, and we were atrocious in the middle in the two PL games. We made Yaya look like an immortal juggernaut.
Will Dembele stop him? Who knows. Yaya is most certainly the better player - but Dembele could very well develop into a Yaya-type of player himself. If there's a player in the PL that could lock horns with Yaya in terms of strength and the ability to glide past players from the midfield, then it's Dembele.
Fergie is wise. No doubt he was impressed by Dembele yesterday, but if he doesn't believe his performance yesterday was enough for him to open up the chequebook one last time, then he's stubborn. Stubborness isn't always a negative - but in this case, it is. Dembele played well the previous week, to which Fergie was also present. Dembele, as mentioned, made our midfield look oblivious/invisible at times.
The Belgian is the player our midfield has been craving for - for a very long time. We have the creativity; we have the speed; we have the composure. But we do not have the grit in the midfield that can compete with other midfielders at times.
Will we sign him this Summer? I doubt it. I adore Fergie, and I admire him oh so much - but his stubborness will most definetly mean he'll refuse to be tempted. Will it come to bite us in the ass? To answer that, we'll have to wait until we face City. If we lose AND our midfield were to blame for not being able to handle theirs, then it will come to bite us in the ass.
I just assumed Fergie would have learnt his lesson from last season and realised that our midfield, however talented it is, struggles to compete at times against the top sides.
I notice some believe the praise may be a bit over the top. It might be. But it is slightly worrying how we were torn apart at times at Everton by Fellaini, and even further by Dembele. The question needs to be asked - what's going to happen when we face Yaya Toure again? We'll be destroyed if all stays the same. I understand it sounds pessimistic and shows no faith in the team - but I think I'm speaking realistically here. We haven't changed much at all in the midfield since last season, and we were atrocious in the middle in the two PL games. We made Yaya look like an immortal juggernaut.
Will Dembele stop him? Who knows. Yaya is most certainly the better player - but Dembele could very well develop into a Yaya-type of player himself. If there's a player in the PL that could lock horns with Yaya in terms of strength and the ability to glide past players from the midfield, then it's Dembele.
Fergie is wise. No doubt he was impressed by Dembele yesterday, but if he doesn't believe his performance yesterday was enough for him to open up the chequebook one last time, then he's stubborn. Stubborness isn't always a negative - but in this case, it is. Dembele played well the previous week, to which Fergie was also present. Dembele, as mentioned, made our midfield look oblivious/invisible at times.
The Belgian is the player our midfield has been craving for - for a very long time. We have the creativity; we have the speed; we have the composure. But we do not have the grit in the midfield that can compete with other midfielders at times.
Will we sign him this Summer? I doubt it. I adore Fergie, and I admire him oh so much - but his stubborness will most definetly mean he'll refuse to be tempted. Will it come to bite us in the ass? To answer that, we'll have to wait until we face City. If we lose AND our midfield were to blame for not being able to handle theirs, then it will come to bite us in the ass.
I just assumed Fergie would have learnt his lesson from last season and realised that our midfield, however talented it is, struggles to compete at times against the top sides.
Thats the comparison I keep making HBFA, Yaya and Dembele. It might just be their builds and complexion that sell it, but they both have that ability to transcend positions. Toure is an attacking midfielder -come- defensive midfielder. A tank of a man who can destroy midfields and scatter defences. Dembele is a striker -come- midfielder who can run at defences whilst simultaneously picking a pass.
The question for me is could Dembele play deeper and be as good? If so not signing him whatever the price is a mistake.
The question for me is could Dembele play deeper and be as good? If so not signing him whatever the price is a mistake.
Surely Fergie saw what everyone else saw yesterday, he must be worth a put at 10 to 15 million?
If he could be as good in a deeper role, I'd suggest he's worth 30 million. If not then we have enough attacking players to not make it worth while, despite his ability.
So if Fergie doesn't go for him, I reckon he doesn't think he can play deeper.
"Fergie is wise, but if he doesn't sign Dembele then he isn't as wise as me"
Dembele is class in my opinion, but I do think Fergie might leave it one more season before finally signing another ready-made midfielder. Hope not as I think Fergie has demonstrated that he wants competition for every position this year and I feel Carrick/Anderson need more competition in midfield.. Dembele would certainly provide that. Fletcher for me is perhaps the reason why Fergie might be hesitant, as the Gaffer might feel that if Fletch is going to fully recover he could be a big player for us still and combine well with Cleverley et al.
Dembele-Cleverley
Kagawa
with competition from Fletcher, Carrick etc would be awesome.
Dembele-Cleverley
Kagawa
with competition from Fletcher, Carrick etc would be awesome.
I think it's as proven as any of our player's ability to do so, in Carrick's absence.
At least he has the physical presence to make an impact there. I dread to think what will happen to us this season should Carrick be out for any length of time.
It's hardly a new concern, concerns over Fletcher have been there for a long while, although in my view he isn't the best there either. But at least he is a far better option than TC, Ando or Scholes/Giggs.
The thought of playing any combination of those 4 for any sustained period should have anybody rational extremely worried imo. Anyone who thinks we will be alright with those midfield options for any length of time is wishful thinking.
That is by far not what I'm implying. It's just sometimes, Fergie can put his stubborn side ahead of anything else. You surely can't deny that he isn't stubborn?
There is clearly a lesson to be learnt from last season's failure in Europe and the horrible 6-1 to City. I'm sure the majority here would say that we still haven't solved that. Will Dembele solve it? Who knows. But I'd say he's the type of midfielder we've been craving for.
I'm a big fan of Dembelle but I'm not sure he would had the space to exploit if Carrick was playing CM. Also, I've heard a lot about the physical presence of Dembelle but it should be remembered that we couldnt call on Phil Jones who is a beast of an athlete and will become a helluva player. All that said if SAF sells Nani he will buy someone else and I'm inclined to think it will be in the CM area.
Do you not think the defensive injuries have been more key to our opening two games, rather than the midfield?
I thought he was fantastic yesterday. Wonderful drive and ability.
It contributed no doubt but the space Fellani was given to operate it and find players was due to the positioning of the midfielders and the amount of space dembele was given to run into was also due to the midfielders.
Are you for real
I think a lot of people have been going on about him for a while, do you believe it's just been yourself.no, because there you are working under the presumption that Carrick back in midfield would have been effective at stopping either Fellaini or Dembele.
While it is obvious we would have been stronger, we know that is not where Carrick's strength lie. He is not going to overpower physical beasts like toure, Dembele, or Fellaini. In my view we cannot count on Carrick being there every game. These games have given us an insight of what we lack in midfield when he isn't in it.
Surely Carrick in midfield and Wooton next to Vidic would at least have had the benefit of a full strength midfield to protect a weakened defence. But no, a small unimposing defensively weakened midfield in front of a weakened defence was his logic.
One serious injury to carrick,and we have seen how quickly it can happen, and we are going to be screwed imo. The midfield we have without him in it is simply not effective enough defensively. Furthermore the defence behind it is no longer good enough to cover for such a suspect midfield either.
I am worried by these 2 games much more than i was before the season started, because they have only highlighted how important Carrick will be, and despite his best, most injury free season for years, it still wasn't enough. Can we be that lucky again? We had better hope so.
Fergie ain't going to buy him folks...we just need to get use to that. He's put that cheque book away....or the Glazers have put it away, from the moment RVP signed...
Have we not signed him yet?
so if we go back 3 weeks, which would have enhanced us more RVP or Dembele?
Raees!
Welcome back mate, great poster!
he's ok......
No doubt about it Dembele. RVP is a luxury player, there is no getting away from that. There is of course an argument to be made for why he was signed and what he will add to the team, i have argued it myself!
But the most glaring weakness in our team is midfield. We were weak there last year, and many are simply presuming that having TC and Ando back from injury make us much better. I don't think that is true, i think they make us better and give us more energy, but none of them are particlualry good defensively, nor are they physically imposing players.
So in effect we have 4 options for one half of our midfield pairing, and still only one option for Carrick's position. If he is not in our midfield, we have seen the result of that in the last 2 games. 30 shots from our opponents, and 20 of them have been on target. Only Carrick was in defence who otherwise would not have been, and as much as i love Carrick, his presence in midfield would not have been decisive in stopping either Fellaini or Dembele.
Hey we've signed van Persie,
And this is crazy,
But open that chequebook,
We want Dembele
And this is crazy,
But open that chequebook,
We want Dembele
He wants it. He wants the transfer. Gambit get this thread into muppet mode will ya?
Welcome back mate, great poster!
Nice to be back, thanks
... hi Gambit, hope you're well xNo doubt about it Dembele. RVP is a luxury player, there is no getting away from that. There is of course an argument to be made for why he was signed and what he will add to the team, i have argued it myself!
But the most glaring weakness in our team is midfield. We were weak there last year, and many are simply presuming that having TC and Ando back from injury make us much better. I don't think that is true, i think they make us better and give us more energy, but none of them are particlualry good defensively, nor are they physically imposing players.
So in effect we have 4 options for one half of our midfield pairing, and still only one option for Carrick's position. If he is not in our midfield, we have seen the result of that in the last 2 games. 30 shots from our opponents, and 20 of them have been on target. Only Carrick was in defence who otherwise would not have been, and as much as i love Carrick, his presence in midfield would not have been decisive in stopping either Fellaini or Dembele.
Did you see the Liverpool game today? They nullified Yaya Toure by making sure they kept things tight, taking up good positions etc. That's how you stop players like him, don't get them the space to build up momentum. Once they're running at you it's so much harder to stop them. Clev and Ando were always chasing after Dembele because they both got so involved in the attack.
Carrick would take up better positions to stop him or the likes of Dembele. He can't do it on his own, clev/ando and kagawa have to do their bit, but having someone in there who knows what he's doing and can organize the others is a big help.
I really was impressed my Dembele don't get me wrong, and honestly if they offered to swap Ando for him I'd probably take it, but like I said I don't think he's a replacement/alternative to Carrick just cause he's strong. To succeed at the top level, which we'd need him to do, you need a tactical knowledge of that area that he unlikely would have and judging by his game I don't think he'd want to be the more defensive partner. Toure at City isn't the more defensive player, he's the one with the license to get forward, he makes sure he gets back to help too. That's how Dembele played too and really I can't see why he'd want to play as the more reserved player next to a cleverley.
We signed alexander…
no i didn't see it Ash, but i'll bet they didn't do it by playing a 2 man midfield!
Ash you are generally missing my point on this. I am not saying sign Dembele because he is an alternative to Carrick. The point is if anything happens to Carrick we have no alternative anyway. So we would end up playing TC or Ando. Which is not a defensively effective pairing anyway.
So i am suggesting we buy Dembele as imo he would be a better option to partner Carrick than either of those we have. But more importantly imo if Carrick is out, we still have to play 2 players. I would prefer Dembele and one of TC/Ando, than Tc and Ando on their own, which at present is our only viable alternative if Carrick is unavailable.
So he doesn't have to be an alternative to Carrick, he can be viewed more as a far better alternative in a midfield pairing, than any of our current midfielders, when we are without Carrick.
Are you for real
I've only recently moved up to the mains here - but in the newbies, there weren't many around there at the time that wanted him. I'd say only 25-30% there wanted him, while the rest didn't believe he has it in him.
My comment was solely based on my time at the newbs.
Just having a laugh Hernandez but in honesty he's been rated by a few in here for a while now.
Well considering where Kagawa was playing it wasn't really a 2 man midfield for us. It was a pretty similar line up to Livepools either way in the middle, suppose you could argue that shelvey and Gerrard were generally deeper than say Kagawa but that was more because off City forcing them back. Either way they stopped Toure without man marking him or anything or brute force, but by smart positioning and hard work.
Bits in bold sound a bit contradictory. By the sounds of it you do think Dembele could be an alternative to Carrick in some capacity. Surely rather than signing him purely cause he might be more effective in a pair than clev/ando, it would make more sense to just sign someone who actually does play deeper naturally? Maybe he could grow in to it but personally I don't see why he would want to and he's not that sort of player yet, being strong doesn't automatically make you good defensively. When we could up against people who will exploit space that's where tactical knowledge of the role comes in to it.
Signing him to come in next to Carrick doesn't make sense when we simply don't know how good Cleverley can be. In the games he's played he looks like he could be quality. He had problems with injuries last season but now he's back we should play him. If he had looked under par last season or looks like he's not up to it this season then by all means sign someone else like Dembele but to sign him now would effectively be writing him off as a squad player. It's not like Fulham dominated us. Dembele exposed the space that Clev and Ando left through their lack of experience but we dominated the ball in the middle and probably would have done so even more without conceding that silly second goal.
Signing Dembele as a Carrick replacement as I said makes less sense as we don't know if he can or would want to play that role. Why not spend the money on someone who already plays there? If there are no other midfielders we could get of a similar quality/potential in a deeper role than he would be a good shout but for me if we are going to sign a midfielder it would make sense to get someone who can actually do the role we need them for rather then try and get another player to change their game.
Just having a laugh Hernandez but in honesty he's been rated by a few in here for a while now.
I'm going to support Hernandez here in regards to the noobies. He must be happy he's here now
Pretty muppet-worthy comments, those. Basically, if someone decent puts a bid in over the next few days, he's off.
Well all ya can do now is hope that maybe we do stick in a bid.
Very good player he is. Drives forward are amazing. Would be a great signing but it won't happen. We're done I reckon.
Like i say i haven't seen it, but going off what you said they at least had players in there who are more agressive defensively and more combative than what we have. Only Carrick is defensively effective out of all our midfielders and not really aggressive.
Well you will get no argument from me in that regard. you should know as well as anyone how long i have been championing getting a Carrick alternative. But SAF is clearly not going to buy anyone for his position.
I am suggesting TC and Ando are not enough defensively, and adding Giggs or Scholes instead of one of those 2, makes it even less effective. Dembele will give us strength, aggression and better ability to keep the ball.
How many times over the years have Arsenal's midfield been outfought by less talented but more physical opponents? We are not a physical midfield even with Carrick in there. Only fletcher gave us that,and you especially, as a fervent champion of the benefits of Fletch, should appreciate how more physicality can better compliment those with silkier skills.
Dembele is different to our midfielders because he offers a fletch like threat physically. He uses his strength to bully opponents off the ball. That is why he is a far better defensive bet in any pair than we could muster, that does not include Carrick. It is not just about being suited to playing deep or not, TC and Ando are less effective deep imo, but we would still have to play them. For me it's about improving weak areas. Dembele is like Anderson with some of Fletch's combative and aggressive nature, that is why i think we would benefit hugely from having someone like him. Especially should the unthinkable happen and Carrick is unavailable.
--------------RvP
Nani/Rooney----------Valencia/Nani
-------------Kagawa
------Dembele Carrick
------------Defense
Nani/Rooney----------Valencia/Nani
-------------Kagawa
------Dembele Carrick
------------Defense
Moussa would complete us
Like a pet is not just for Christmas a signing is not just for a season, Scholes and Giggs should be done at the end of this season so getting Demebele in now while the leverage of him only haivng a year left on his contract is available to us would be smart, setting us up for seasons ahead not just adding quality for this one.
But that's the point, if Carrick was in there instead off Ando/Clev he would have held back and plugged the space that Ando/Clev were leaving to slow Dembele down. That would give the likes of clev/ando a chance to actually get back. On saturday there was no one doing that so he could just run until he got to the fullbacks/centrebacks, there was no one inbetween them. If Carrick was playing he would have been there. Clev and Ando were happy to get stuck in, but they were always both chasing after him and that was always going to be an issue.
I don't disagree with you that Dembele wouldn't add to the squad but like I said feasibly the only place he would come in, is instead of clev/ando and I don't see the point in that when both if they stay fit could become quality players in their own right, particularly cleverley.
The thing is you have to put the Fulham game in to perspective. We had more possession then them and in the middle it was diarra and dembele vs ando and clev, with the latter two winning the midfield battle. No doubt Dembele looked impressive but that was a factor of how open the game was. It wasn't like he ran through Ando and Clev, the majority of the time he was already past them. And we were dangerous on the counter to, more so you could say.
Ultimately against a bigger team or away from home it's unlikely even Ando and Clev would have been as attacking as they were. And certainly if it were Clev and Carrick it wouldn't have been as attacking because Carrick wouldn't have pushed as far on as Ando did. That's part of my point. You're writing off Carrick and Clev being a solid midfield when they haven't played together yet.
I'm not denying that Carrick and Dembele couldn't be more compact but I don't think you can conclusively say they would. Dembele showed just as much disregard for potential counter attacks from us in the way he played as clev and ando did. So even if Dembele came in for Carrick there's no saying he wouldn't go and push on as much as he did for Fulham, sure he might have a better chance of getting back then ando or clev but the damage could already be done by that point.
The point on Fletcher is valid but again it goes back to the point that Fletcher wasn't just phyiscally imposing, there was a tactical awareness to his game that some (although I think you will), appreciate. Knowing when to press, how to press all those were/are so important to how he played and why he was so effective. It wasn't just about getting in their faces, that was part of it but there was the other part which was tactical knowledge. It's why Jones showed last season that just having energy and physicality wasn't enough in the middle to do Fletcher's role. Also whilst physicality is important a big part of it, is just willing to get stuck in. That was part of Arsenal's problem. They weren't up for the fight. Clev and Ando though are both hard workers who get stuck in, with someone like Carrick covering for them they're lack of defensive knowledge can be covered. It's not ideal and it's not as strong as it could be, but I don't see why it couldn't be sufficient. And as they play more they'll learn.
So again it comes back to the fact that Dembele isn't really an alternative to carrick, his physicality might help him but not if he's been caught up the opposition end. Like I said to do Carrick's role would be a complete change to his game. It would make more sense just to buy someone who naturally plays there.
For him to come in over clev/ando again for me is unnecessary. Cleverley has shown real promise in these first two games, I wouldn't want to bench him for someone he might well be better than in 2 years. If he doesn't step up or Ando doesn't stay fit and Dembele is around then bring him in, but if they both push on then there's no need. We may as well give them a chance. Like I said there's no reason to believe that Dembele would be significantly stronger defensively than Clev or Ando in the middle because on yesterdays display he's as gung-ho.
We need an alternative to Carrick, Dembele is an alternative partner for him and maybe cover for him against an average team but by no means assured cover for him in a game against a strong team and that's assuming he even would want to play a more reserved role.