Absolutely right. We just could not handle him at all.
Moussa Dembele
- Thread starter The Neviller
- Start date
Absolutely right. We just could not handle him at all.
If Dembele has a good first half of the season, and is available on a pre contract in January, everybody will be in for him. If we want him, we shouldn't wait.
The panic was introduced to our game by giving away a silly own goal. Fulham's midfield were following shadows in the first half.
That's the best argument I've read from the pro-Dembele brigade.
Yup.
We were terrific for about twenty minutes at the end of the first half, and Fulham couldn't live with us.
We then did our usual 'take foot off the gas' routine, and invited pressure through conceding a ridiculous second.
Just went onto a Fulham board and Dembele definitely only has a year left on his contract. Value.
that is all well and good, but what happens should Carrick get injured? Ando and TC, or Scholes and TC, good enough defensively? Not for me.
We need more physicality in there, that much should be obvious Ash. However much we might want to believe that we have enough, the last 2 games make it obvious we are lacking.
We have dominated 1 half out of 4 so far this season, despite playing pretty well overall. That is a worry to me, Scholes and TC had 96% pass completion against Everton, yet Everton had far more shots with much less possession.
Fulham had only 40% possession yesterday, yet managed almost as many shots as we did with far less opportunity. The concern for me is that we have played pretty well, but without the ball we have been physically dominated. It was significant enough to prove decisive against Everton, and significant enough to give us an extremely uncomfortable second half against Fulham.
We need to act now, we should have sorted this out long ago, and the problems are now too evident to ignore. An injury to Carrick will leave us with a very small and defensively suspect midfield.
I accept that to an extent, but to say we were comfortable wth Dembele is a bit far fetched unless I saw a different game.
When a guy is brushing your midfielders off the ball and drifting past them like they were invisible I think it is safe to say he gave is problems
Not really, i have no doubt you are fully aware of what imposing suggests, just a differing context on when the effectiveness of when our imposition takes place. It was our inability to impose ourselves on Fulhams possession that was the problem, as it was against Everton.
When we have the ball there is no problem at all, as our possession stats will surely indicate. When the opponent has the ball we have to look at why we were so ineffective at preventing both teams creating so much from so little.
It can only be reasonably attributed to the lack of a physical imposition we can apply as a regular and effective disruption to their play. We couldn't do it because we didn't have one, it's that simple in my view.
It doesn't take away from an acknowledgment of what we already have, but it highlights like a beacon what we are sorely lacking, and what we can expect to see regularly with Carrick out for any period.
He was like the second coming of Bin Laden the way he terrorized us last night, or not.
We should sign that Gibson fellow at Everton, he did well against us last week.
We should sign that Gibson fellow at Everton, he did well against us last week.
Dembele undeniably had a very good game. However, in the context of the full 90 minutes Cleverley, Anderson and Kagawa were the dominant players.
I think John Thomas would be far more appropriate after that wondrously insightful contribution! 
Martin Jol seems to able to get more out of players than any manager I can think of. Before he went to Spurs Robbie Keane was linked with a £5 million move to Everton. But Jol turned him into a player that Liverpool paid £20 million for and under Rafa he went back to being the player Everton were close to paying £5 million for. Carrick was booed by West Ham fans, went to Spurs, Jol made in the focal point of their team and we bought him for £18.6 million. Berbatov was good in the Bundesliga, but nothing like the player he was for Jol at Spurs. Pertic was a journeyman who Jol turned into a top class forward at HSV, then when Jol left, he went back to being a journeyman. Now at Fulham he looks top class again. Under Jol at Ajax, Suarez had by far his best ever season and actually seemed to able to score goals, hitting an incredible 35 goals in 33 games. At Fulham, under Jol Dempsey had the season of his life and Dembele has been transformed into one of the best CM's in the league. He doesn't seem to great with defenders, but the guy seems to really take forwards and midfield players to new levels.
Sultan is, as always, talking sense.
Dembele caught the eye with some good runs but the United players gave a better display of the art of playing in central midfield. At least they did until we conceded that sloppy goal, made some questionable subs and generally shat ourselves at the thought of letting yet another comfortable win slip away.
Nothing wrong with our personnel yesterday. They just need to believe in themselves a bit more. The fact we came away with all three points will be a step in the right direction.
Dembele caught the eye with some good runs but the United players gave a better display of the art of playing in central midfield. At least they did until we conceded that sloppy goal, made some questionable subs and generally shat ourselves at the thought of letting yet another comfortable win slip away.
Nothing wrong with our personnel yesterday. They just need to believe in themselves a bit more. The fact we came away with all three points will be a step in the right direction.
In the context of the full 90 mins Utd dominated the first half, and then were hanging on for the last 20mins after losing the second half 1-0.
how is that possible when we had so much more possession than Fulham. What made them so effective as to create almost as much from far less?
We were far from dominant when they had the ball. Almost every bout of possession they had led to something. Our effectiveness with the ball should not detract from how regularly ineffective we were without it.
If you go back last couple of decades you'll find the best midfielders in the world have been less than physical. In fact if you look at midfielders playing today you'll find the best are quite diminutive.
PS: Scholes, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Wilshere, Silva, Cleverley, Kagawa, Pirlo, etc...
Aye, it's almost as though our defence wasn't quite as effective as usual. Weird.
I don't see anyone disagreeing with him Pogue. i am simply asking him to consider how our domination of possession, is resulting in teams having almost as many chances as we are having. We are lacking not when we have it , but when they have it.
There is obviously a problem in disrupting even their limited bouts of possession surely? What other reasonable explanation can there be?
A makeshift defence, and Vidic not being fully match fit is your answer, mate. If you remember he was not supposed to be match fit for the start of the season, but due to injuries he has had more playing time than expected, and an extra burden playing with a midfieder as his partner.
It's all about complimenting that diminutive talent with a bit of steel too though sultan. How many of those players do not have someone alongside them who is more physically imposing than they?
none of those players are brilliant defenders and would you seriously expect a defensively competent midfield pairing from any 2 of them?
How effective would a Xavi Scholes central pairing be defensively? Or how about a Pirlo Fabregas? Not very i would imagine but put in a player who can offer something different to compliment their skills, and it becomes a different story.
you have to consider playing a pair requires all round effective contribution. Those players have to be able to cover a wide variety of attributes for a regularly effective midfield. It is why most teams play with 3 nowadays, because it is rare that you find 2 who can cut it on a regular basis.
We've had Carrick and Fletcher doing the role quite effectively over many years. They're still United players. Carrick in the prime of his career, and Fletcher would also be in his prime had it not been for his illness. We don't know he might be on his way back to playing again.
PS: I think Dembele would be a very good signing. However, there is only so much space in the squad, and salaries need to kept in check.
Fair enough, and i hope you are right, because if Carrick gets injured, i am struggling to see how our defence even at full strength will not be similarly and regularly exposed.
The only difference to our midfield in these past 2 games would have been carrick. It is there where we have struggled for me, and having Carrick, who is hardly the most physical in there would have made some difference granted.But anyone who thinks he would have overpowered Fellaini or Dembele enough to seriously limit their contribution is wishful thinking in my view.
If Carrick gets injured, I think Sir Alex has designs on Jones covering.
Yes again i agree, but that doesn't help us now. Carrick is our only feasibly effective option. He provides the vast majority of our defensive prowess and our physicality.
surely we have to seriously consider what we have should he be injured. Dembele is not a Carrick, but considering we don't have another option there anyway, he would be a far better option alongside a TC or Ando, then they would be on their own.
We are lacking certian attributes because too many of our players, bar Carrick are far too similar. We need variety of attributes, we have no powerful presence, and imo we need one. If it means Schoels and Giggs taking a back seat, then not before time in my view. We need an improved midfield to move forward, continuing to make do while we lack certain attributes is not going to help us do that anymore than it has already.
Thing is Dembele obviously exposed the space that clev and ando left. This made it easier for him to be much more direct and for him to build up momentum. It's a lot hard to stop someone once they're running at you. Had Carrick been in there I really don't think we would have been that exposed. Carrick would have plugged the hole they were leaving. Dembele still could have got the ball but I think he would have found it a lot harder to make those runs. He was less influential as the game got more compact and also it wasn't like he was spreading lots of great passes he was simply running in to the space we left.
That's not to knock him, he'd clearly be a good addition to the team but I don't think that he's really what we need atm. His physicality would help us but like I said he's someone who can play that way because he has someone covering for him in the same way Toure always has a Barry, De Jong and even Rodwell now. Clev and Ando could be equally impressive in the attack but they need a partner who will cover for their weakneses. Dembele wouldn't really do that, not against good teams. Dembele for me isn't an alternative to Carrick he's an alternative to clev/ando and whilst he is good and I wouldn't be unhappy if we got him he's not exactly what we need.
The physicality card is getting overplayed atm. Lets see how we do when it's Carrick partnered by a clev/ando and with someone like kagawa near by. Last season he was partnered by Scholes who isn't suited to physical games and had Park in there. This season both Fellani and Dembele have played against us when we've been lacking in defence and in midfield again because of Carrick's absence. It's shown up that we might have an issue when Carrick isn't around but I think it's far too early to say that a midfield of carrick, clev and Kagawa would get out done by a physically strong midfield. They're all hard workers not afraid of a tackle and good on the ball.
That's not to knock him, he'd clearly be a good addition to the team but I don't think that he's really what we need atm. His physicality would help us but like I said he's someone who can play that way because he has someone covering for him in the same way Toure always has a Barry, De Jong and even Rodwell now. Clev and Ando could be equally impressive in the attack but they need a partner who will cover for their weakneses. Dembele wouldn't really do that, not against good teams. Dembele for me isn't an alternative to Carrick he's an alternative to clev/ando and whilst he is good and I wouldn't be unhappy if we got him he's not exactly what we need.
The physicality card is getting overplayed atm. Lets see how we do when it's Carrick partnered by a clev/ando and with someone like kagawa near by. Last season he was partnered by Scholes who isn't suited to physical games and had Park in there. This season both Fellani and Dembele have played against us when we've been lacking in defence and in midfield again because of Carrick's absence. It's shown up that we might have an issue when Carrick isn't around but I think it's far too early to say that a midfield of carrick, clev and Kagawa would get out done by a physically strong midfield. They're all hard workers not afraid of a tackle and good on the ball.
Then we truly are trusting to luck after all!
Might as well stick Evans there than Jones, it's no less proven effective. At least Evans shares some similarities to Carrick's style of play.
Then we truly are trusting to luck after all!
Might as well stick Evans there than Jones, it's no less proven effective. At least Evans shares some similarities to Carrick's style of play.
Yeah agree on that, Jones is not a replacement for Carrick, I think he needs Carricks protection even more than clev, ando and scholes do based on last season.
How can we suggest we only have so many spots for midfield as a justification for not signing Dembele, and then integrate an unproven CB whose best displays have been at RB, into one of our 2 available midfield spots?
Bizarre in my view, SAF does love a square peg for a round hole, but for me his unwillingness to buy what we clearly need for midfield is going to cost us dearly again this year.
We will surely not be as lucky with Carrick this season as we were last, and if the unthinkable occurs, and we have no effective replacement. We will again rue not having someone like Dembele to provide many of the attributes we need.
How can we suggest we only have so many spots for midfield as a justification for not signing Dembele, and then integrate an unproven CB whose best displays have been at RB, into one of our 2 available midfield spots?
Bizarre in my view, SAF does love a square peg for a round hole, but for me his unwillingness to buy what we clearly need for midfield is going to cost us dearly again this year.
We will surely not be as lucky with Carrick this season as we were last, and if the unthinkable occurs, and we have no effective replacement. We will again rue not having someone like Dembele to provide many of the attributes we need.
We had Fletcher, Anderson, and Cleverley out for most parts of the season. Park was woefully out of form. This year we all those players back except Fletcher and have signed a couple of midfielders.
--------Carrick--------
--Dembele--Kagawa--
Nani-----RVP-----Rooney
Looks great that
--Dembele--Kagawa--
Nani-----RVP-----Rooney
Looks great that
He offers something we distinctly lacked in our last two games which is the ability to advance and take on players centrally. We invariably end up sending the ball wide, which is great as part of your repertoire but not as the default and only option.
Truth is he would start ahead of Clev and Ando and would be a better backup to Carrick so at the fees quoted he would be a no brainer. It's a long season, everyone will get enough games anyway.
Truth is he would start ahead of Clev and Ando and would be a better backup to Carrick so at the fees quoted he would be a no brainer. It's a long season, everyone will get enough games anyway.
Pretty filthy that
The output was 3 key passes which matched our best of 3 from Van Persie and Valencia, plus 2 more than Cleverley and 3 more than Anderson. So created more than our CMs and even Kagawa.
The 9 dribbles Dembele had opened up space for his team and with 96% passing accuracy, he almost always found a team mate in space to profit from it.
The only problem is that some people arent watching him when we arent playing Fulham. He dribbles easily past all kinds of midfields, not just Anderson and Cleverley. He's maybe even the best in the league at this.
Have to admit I was impressed yesterday. Not only does he possess athleticism like some say but also technique and awareness. They way he was spinning, changing direction.
Passing's also good, and he is intelligent player, not another Moses type.
Passing's also good, and he is intelligent player, not another Moses type.
I think is well established that he is talented, that he can dribble and pass the ball. But this is hardly something we're screaming out for.
Unfortunately none for the one position we lack, which is exactly the point.
We can all look at what our midfield currently provides, but we should also consider what we lack. That is what will hurt us and cost us points. too much of one thing, not balanced by other requirements is still weakness, and it will be exploited.
Unfortunately for us our first 2 performances have highlighted to all the other teams exactly where and how we can be got at. We have the choice of doing something about it, or trusting to luck once again.
Why take unnecessary risks? We have many players who are inconsistent, and susceptible to injury, we suffered badly from it last year, and already again this season. Yet we seem more than willing to learn nothing from 'simply making do', and are therefore trusting to luck yet again rather than taking specific steps to cover where we are weakest.
So i take your points, and hope everything goes as we will require it too, when we need it most. If not there are no more excuses to be made over value or lack of funds, SAF has bought who he wanted, despite ignoring our most glaring weakness, yet again.
We will see how it goes, but if it all goes tits up, we will have no-one and nothing to blame but ourselves.
Concur.
Dembele hasn't suddenly appeared from nowhere, but because he's done it to us yesterday, he's being treated as such.
Considering he was only converted to a midfielder a couple of seasons back, his development trajectory has been phenomenal and his ball retention as well as his spatial awareness are in the top percentile, if not at the very top, for the PL.
If people watched him more often than when we play Fulham, they would see him make mugs of players with much better defensive reputations than Anderson or Cleverley.
Dembele has played well for +18 months. However he need a good game against United for it to mean anything in the eyes of (arguably) the English press and (arguably) the caf. He played well, maybe we let him and maybe we didn't, it doesn't matter because he's already a great player.
Exactly.
Some people think his physicality is. And thats worth a shout because we have very little in central midfield. Even our defensive player in midfield isnt the most physical.
The problem is a lot of physical players dont actually have the ability on the ball to be compared against the likes of Carrick, Scholes, Giggs and Cleverley. Dembele is one of those players who can measure up to them. His combination of skills is a bit of a rarity