I'm sure Mourinho could learn to use Excel.
Mourinho | New old Chelsea manager
- Thread starter Suedesi
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Something I've been saying for a while. I feel like people forget his age sometimes as well. He's turning 50 in a month. That's a little older than when SAF took over United. And that was a struggle for a few years (he won the league in his what, 7th season?).
I'm sure he could. He's a champion. What if I need a document ready on the first day and he's still learning though? Or what if he's a Mac user? Questions.
It is true. I was complementing your post a bit.
That said, not many managers are proven in that regard, and the one that will be chosen to succeed SAF will have to mix that with the delivery of quick results which makes it an even rarer quality in practical terms.
If he's a Mac user then, given what I know of Mourinho, everyone else at OT would have to learn to use Macs. At the end of the day, if he's won titles with Macs before, then fair play to him. I don't think the incoming manager should be beholden to legacy IT infrastructure.
Yeah, but the reason he was kept on throughout the first 6 years was because appreciable progress was being made beyond the 1st team - United's youth set-up was nonexistent when he arrived, and people like Bobby Charlton have said that if it wasn't for the work Ferguson did on this when he first arrived he probably wouldn't have stayed. If Mourinho could give an indication that he would be able to continue that work then he would be an even stronger candidate.
No doubt. Analogies are hard. You seem to grasp them well though Simon!
Oh sure. His discipline and focus on youth has been evident his entire career. Was that way in Scotland as well. He wasn't that far off from getting the sack though. Maybe not dancing on the line, we might never know for real how close he was, but he was getting to a point where results started to become a must.
Other teams should learn more from history.
True, and I don't think whoever comes will have much time. I've read some opinions here like "United do things a different way and the next manager will be given time" and I'm not so sure about that. Football has changed since Fergie's early years, and he helped reinvent United into one of the biggest clubs of the world. Precisely for that the club has reached a status and expectations that won't allow it to go smoothly for 3 or 4 seasons without winning or contesting trophies. The owners will want to keep the club as it is, and a lot of this depends on things like worldwide notoriety and commercial value which are linked to results.
Youth alone will not ensure football results, that's for sure, not with the money that your rivals put into the squad to try and fix each flaw they find. And their next step might be going for the best managers around. So I'm not sure if this will be as highly prioritized in the future as it was in the past.
I may be wrong as I'm not very familiar with the culture of the people who have the power at the club (beyond SAF). But I don't find much evidence to the contrary. It's not like United have hired enough managers in the past few years for me to be sure that youth proficiency will be a major curriculum requirement.
I think you're looking at it a little to black-and-white, Arruda. I get that football has changed but some things don't change as much.
Continuity and youth will always be big factors at United. You will not get a manager at the club who doesn't at least aim to be there 5 years or so and who doesn't at least acknowledge the role played by the youth academy. It is open to discussion how important the Glazers will view that with immediate success, but Mourinho's supporters are going a little too far the other way in downplaying the importance of these factors.
I would suggest reading a little on what Jim White in his "biography" of United calls "the thread" - this is something that goes back beyond Fergie, and something that is maintained by United people all the way down to the office staff apparently. It's not a concrete concept but one that addresses many of the less obvious traits needed in the manager, things that (in theory) set United apart from other clubs. If Mourinho understands "the thread" and buys into it (not saying he has to dramatically change his managerial philosophy to shape it, and I'm sure Fergie will make sure the next man gets the idea) then he'd be an ideal candidate. But it is only right that people who value things like youth development and continuity point out that Mourinho hasn't proven himself of these yet. At the same time, his other qualities might make up for it.
Continuity and youth will always be big factors at United. You will not get a manager at the club who doesn't at least aim to be there 5 years or so and who doesn't at least acknowledge the role played by the youth academy. It is open to discussion how important the Glazers will view that with immediate success, but Mourinho's supporters are going a little too far the other way in downplaying the importance of these factors.
I would suggest reading a little on what Jim White in his "biography" of United calls "the thread" - this is something that goes back beyond Fergie, and something that is maintained by United people all the way down to the office staff apparently. It's not a concrete concept but one that addresses many of the less obvious traits needed in the manager, things that (in theory) set United apart from other clubs. If Mourinho understands "the thread" and buys into it (not saying he has to dramatically change his managerial philosophy to shape it, and I'm sure Fergie will make sure the next man gets the idea) then he'd be an ideal candidate. But it is only right that people who value things like youth development and continuity point out that Mourinho hasn't proven himself of these yet. At the same time, his other qualities might make up for it.
Thanks, it's nice to know that.
Like I said, my opinion was a bit shallow and based on not knowing the dominant culture too well and their level of influence at the decisions that will be made.
Like I said, my opinion was a bit shallow and based on not knowing the dominant culture too well and their level of influence at the decisions that will be made.
I'm not trying to pretend I know all about United's culture, I want to point that out. I just think people are too quick to write off stability and youth concerns just because the trend these days is for short(er) managerial regimes and short-term squad building.
Mourinho has Man City written all over him, its just the kind of job he'd love to take. Only question is, will Manchini be there at the time or not? The got rid of Hughes didn't they, so only time will tell exactly how ruthless the owners are.
Mourinho was asked, at the clubs he has managed to find instant success - not develop a club from the ground up.
Guardiola may have brought through prospects into the the Barca line up - but he has at his disposal something Mourinho didn't - a system churning out players good enough to play in the first team - although if you look at how many players he has actually brought through, its really only Pedro and Busquets who weren't already in the side.
All of thsi "united way" stuff aboiut youth etc is bollocks. Players get into the first team if they are good enough. The manager will have some control over the youth set up, but kids are there from the age of 6 or 7 now with an army of coaches. if you think Sir Alex as a 70 odd year old manager of a PL and CL side has time to look after that you're dreaming.
I think he would take the City job - but only if the United job wasn't forthcoming.
Difficult to rely on what yopu hear in the press but there has been a lot said over the years as to how he'd supposedly love to suceed Fergie.
I personally think he'd relish the challenge.
For sure. But he ingrains it into the club that it is important. He put the staff there to make sure it happens. He doesn't look at it every week, but he'll sure be giving it a glance once in a while to make sure everything is still in place.
A lot of managers, and especially short term manages overlook those areas.
We already have the "system" and staff in place. But if a manager was to come in who ignored those areas, then it'd start to fall apart after a couple of years and unless we solely buy the youth at 17/18 - there won't be much good young players coming through.
You're making out like he must go to all the youth games and take them training every week to have any input on the youth system when that's just a ludicrous thought.
It will be interesting to see what sort of challenge Mourinho plumps for. Because they are completely different types of challenge and pressure, United on the one hand, versus City or Chelsea on the other (to be fair there are also big differences between those two jobs as well.)
At United you have the chance to succeed someone with god-like status, where there is little that can be done to be perceived as transcending your predecessor (sustained domination of Europe would look to be the only real route to this as far as I can see) but plenty of downside risk. In other words, you do well and it is seen as continuity, you do badly it is seen as squandering an inheritance. For that slightly skewed risk profile, he gets to take over the most successful and prestigious team in the land.
On the other hand he could take on a club that will pay him more, give him more money to spend on players, where his success will not always be measured against an almost impossible benchmark, where he will not have to deal with people pining for the past - a past which has been glorious but which will be inflated still further by the passage of time, so that all the bad shit - the refusal to buy midfielders, the 442 dogma, the over-reliance on Scholes and Giggs - will be glossed over or forgotten about, and only the titles, the cups and the persona will be remembered.
Ive said before, if he really wanted to do something monumental, something that would make people sit back and think, wow, now that is a manager who can work miracles, and dispel the notion that he can only do his thing when backed up by unlimited resources, he should take over Liverpool. Awakening that sleeping giant and delivering them a title would be the biggest achievement he could deliver in my opinion, more than fixing a team with a winning mentality at Chelsea, picking up from where Mancini left off at City, or maintaining the success at United. But that isnt going to happen.
On paper, to me the City or Chelsea job would look more appealing to a neutral, someone with no former association with United. But it is hard to quantify the prestige associated with our club, or how he would perceive that. We certainly have more prestige than City or Chelsea, but how that compares to the money depends on the individual. Having just come from Madrid, he doesnt really have much left to prove in terms of managing prestigious football clubs.
At United you have the chance to succeed someone with god-like status, where there is little that can be done to be perceived as transcending your predecessor (sustained domination of Europe would look to be the only real route to this as far as I can see) but plenty of downside risk. In other words, you do well and it is seen as continuity, you do badly it is seen as squandering an inheritance. For that slightly skewed risk profile, he gets to take over the most successful and prestigious team in the land.
On the other hand he could take on a club that will pay him more, give him more money to spend on players, where his success will not always be measured against an almost impossible benchmark, where he will not have to deal with people pining for the past - a past which has been glorious but which will be inflated still further by the passage of time, so that all the bad shit - the refusal to buy midfielders, the 442 dogma, the over-reliance on Scholes and Giggs - will be glossed over or forgotten about, and only the titles, the cups and the persona will be remembered.
Ive said before, if he really wanted to do something monumental, something that would make people sit back and think, wow, now that is a manager who can work miracles, and dispel the notion that he can only do his thing when backed up by unlimited resources, he should take over Liverpool. Awakening that sleeping giant and delivering them a title would be the biggest achievement he could deliver in my opinion, more than fixing a team with a winning mentality at Chelsea, picking up from where Mancini left off at City, or maintaining the success at United. But that isnt going to happen.
On paper, to me the City or Chelsea job would look more appealing to a neutral, someone with no former association with United. But it is hard to quantify the prestige associated with our club, or how he would perceive that. We certainly have more prestige than City or Chelsea, but how that compares to the money depends on the individual. Having just come from Madrid, he doesnt really have much left to prove in terms of managing prestigious football clubs.
Its been "engrained" in the club for a long time - and will continue to be. United were iinvesting money in the youth side of football for years - the result being the golden generation of Giggs and Beckham et al.
No reason at all to think that will change - the infrastructure is in place, huge investments have been made so it will continue regardless of who's in charge. What manager wouldn't want access to good young talent?
I'm not suggesting a manager has to run it for it to succeed - what I'm saying is that the club will have a full "set up" of academy coaches, a network of scouts and various numerous other employees who's job it is to run that side of things. This exists over and above the manager and will continue to do so - the club cannot afford for it not too.
People ignore one simple fact - Fergie may have had his input into this over the years but it is now established - no manager would be allowed to, or want to dismantle it.
That this is being used as an argument against a manager of the capabilities of Mourinho is bizzare. He's had success at clubs where the youth talent simply hasn't been available, and that's not his fault - you can't pick youth players just because they're at the club if they're not gonna make it.
At Chelsea Roman put Arnesen in charge - Jose didn't give many youth players chance - but none of them actually made it elsewhere - so to me it seems he was right. At Inter it was a short term effort at success with an ageing side - but Balotelli and Santon got chances. At real he's thrown varane in and he's done very well. The "Jose doesn't like youth players" issue to me is just a myth. Any manager will pick young players if they're good enough - if not, they won't. Fergie has done exactly the same over the years.
I just can't see him going back to Chelsea as I don't think his ego could take being sacked unceremoniously again. Have a feeling he'll be our next manager.
For me, it is not that this counts against Mourinho per se. It is that if we appointed Guardiola as manager, for example, he might be able to actively build on what we have, improve on it. It is one thing to say, OK what we have is the finished product, we have a great youth set up, someone can monitor that and there will be a production line of talent coming into the first team for the manager, job done. It is another to say, OK we want to take on what we have and build on it, we want more kids coming through, better kids coming through, how are we going to achieve that? A manager like Guardiola might be able to help make that happen.
SAF has been an amazing manager and has done a lot but I think the risk with talk of his succession is people look for continuity and assume we are already everything we can be. I dont think that is the right way to look at it. We must continue to evolve. What I like about Guardiola is the possibility - big risk here, but potentially big reward - that he could bring new ideas in that could help bring about a new revolution in the youth set up and the playing style of the club. We have a great youth set up, but it could be better. Barca's is better, he knows Barca inside out, he could help us evolve in that direction.
I'm just going to say for me a huge portion of Mourinho's 'aura' has been created by the media, particularly when he first took over at Chelsea.
There was actually an interesting phrase that Mourinho used last night about José Rodríguez who made his CL debut, roughly along the lines of: "look after him and in 3 years time he'll be a Real Madrid player". Rodriguez is the youngest Real Madrid CL player ever, beating Raul and Casillas.
His repeated complaints at Madrid have been about the fans/press/agents putting too much pressure on the club's teenagers and that they should be allowed to enjoy playing for the reserves, and getting the odd run out with the first team. Without it being made to sound like failure.
It's an interesting point because the only youngster we've been able to bring through directly recently is Rafael and he's been with us 5 yeas now (and it was injuries that gave him playing time initially). Cleverley's 23 and spent three seasons on loan, Welbeck's 22 and needed 2 years on loan.
19/20 year olds want recognition and being told they're, "languishing in the reserves," that "they're ready" for more money/game time, or in danger of missing the boat - see Pogba - makes it hard.
Teenage Balotelli played 70 games for Mourinho - he's not allergic to teenagers, if they're good enough. Even if they annoy him at times.
His repeated complaints at Madrid have been about the fans/press/agents putting too much pressure on the club's teenagers and that they should be allowed to enjoy playing for the reserves, and getting the odd run out with the first team. Without it being made to sound like failure.
It's an interesting point because the only youngster we've been able to bring through directly recently is Rafael and he's been with us 5 yeas now (and it was injuries that gave him playing time initially). Cleverley's 23 and spent three seasons on loan, Welbeck's 22 and needed 2 years on loan.
19/20 year olds want recognition and being told they're, "languishing in the reserves," that "they're ready" for more money/game time, or in danger of missing the boat - see Pogba - makes it hard.
Teenage Balotelli played 70 games for Mourinho - he's not allergic to teenagers, if they're good enough. Even if they annoy him at times.
The sad thing about mourinho basher is that they often comes out with the likes of O'neill, Moyes
I know some of you hate his guts, but to claim moyes is better than him is living in the cuckoo land
I know some of you hate his guts, but to claim moyes is better than him is living in the cuckoo land
Agreed, going to a club where the foundations are laid and there is lots of money to spend and taking them a step higher is what Mourinho really has excelled at. That is what he has done at Chelsea, Inter & Real Madrid and had a lot of success.
Maybe - but as you say, it seems like a big risk to me.
The facts are that the Barca thing is very romantic - great side, great football and the worlds greatest players - and Guardiola, was (somewhat rightly) a figure head for that.
What is presupposes though, is that Guardiola is the reason for their success. He has no doubt done very well and has moulded a great side - but has done so with an embarassment of riches. Whats to say another manager wouldn't have had even more success?
Barca have a world class set up, top to bottom and it seems that the manager is not neccessarily the most vital component - hence their keeness to promote from within. It all goes back to the blueprint Cruyff put in place years ago - and now its paying off.
Pep may come into United and revolutionise the youth system - although surely he would need the guys from Barca who were actually responsible for that in order to do so? He also doesn't strike me as a man who wants a huge long term prohject - as stated before he's a family man who probably doesn't "need" football like other managers do. For me there are a lot of question makrs over him for those reasons.
Could Guardiola not install a new system from the first team down through the lower youth levels?
One major factor in all of this - the Glazers.
Are/will they be willing to pay Mourinho 10m per year? Guardiola will surely command a massive wage as well. Or will the Glazers be satisfied bringing in a manager like Moyes who would take far less wages. They could also appoint someone like Ole, Phelan, or whomever for peanuts.
Are/will they be willing to pay Mourinho 10m per year? Guardiola will surely command a massive wage as well. Or will the Glazers be satisfied bringing in a manager like Moyes who would take far less wages. They could also appoint someone like Ole, Phelan, or whomever for peanuts.
Glazers are businessmen who want to make money. The difference in Moyes's and Mourinho's wages would be easily offset by the trophies he'g get us. Wages for the manager wont be an issue.
Would this system, already starting to prove predictable at Barcelona despite the players they have, be as efficient with another side?
Its a good point.
Football is constantly changing tactically as teams improve and learn to deal with different threats.
One thing about Barca was that on the very rare occaisions Plan A didn't work, they had no Plan B.
I dont think it does. It just presupposes that he understands the system they have over there, how it all works, and can help us replicate it, or at least take elements of it to improve ours. You dont need to be the architect of something in order to understand it and help others copy it. You see that all the time in business with corporations hiring people to help them try and emulate more successful competitors.
Not necessarily, as explained above.
Now THAT is a valid concern. Though not a deal breaker. He could still come and manage us for a while, and then leave. Maybe that would be fine too. But yes, it does seem to imply my (you are right, somewhat romantic) idea is probably not going to come to fruition.
One thing, and a very important thing, the club will need to assess is how long they expect to get from the next manager. 3 Years, 5 years, 8 years, 10 or more years?
The next thing is how quickly do we expect to achieve some success, how much success and how long would we put up with without any real success? Fergie famously had 6 years but that's in a different era when we were a different club.
The condition of the squad will be a key factor. I also think it will be interesting to see of Ferguson leaves a young team approaching its peak with lots of talent or whether he milks what he can put of his team and leaves work and funds for his successor to have his own space and time to form his own project.
It'll be interesting times that is for sure. I've only ever know 1 manager at this club as he took over a matter of weeks after I was born.
The next thing is how quickly do we expect to achieve some success, how much success and how long would we put up with without any real success? Fergie famously had 6 years but that's in a different era when we were a different club.
The condition of the squad will be a key factor. I also think it will be interesting to see of Ferguson leaves a young team approaching its peak with lots of talent or whether he milks what he can put of his team and leaves work and funds for his successor to have his own space and time to form his own project.
It'll be interesting times that is for sure. I've only ever know 1 manager at this club as he took over a matter of weeks after I was born.
Sure but it will take years to work. Many years.
The club ain't going anywhere.
Just to balance the picture, here's the Marca voters opinion on who should take over from Mourinho.
http://www.marca.com/debate/2012/12/2949/prevotaciones2949.html
29% Low
15% Klopp
Board room favourite (allegedly) Benitez is below Wenger with 7%.
http://www.marca.com/debate/2012/12/2949/prevotaciones2949.html
29% Low
15% Klopp
Board room favourite (allegedly) Benitez is below Wenger with 7%.
Wegner What established top club with shit loads of cash to spend?
Chelsea
Inter
Real
The cnut sure knows how to make himself look good.
fecks sake, do you not know what "unproven" means? Christ.
Good post but misses the point a bit - it's about the time / attention Mourinho will dedicate to the youth set-up, not how many players he picks from it.
porto