I agree. Where could you really go after taking over from Ferguson at United?
Mourinho | New old Chelsea manager
- Thread starter Suedesi
- Start date
Wasn't SAF's plan to having already been retired like 3 times by now?
Well he is 50 now and will retire at 65. So thats 15 years.
He could do 10 years at United easily if England was he last destination before doing 5 (enough for a Euro campaign and WC) with Portugal.
The feck you on about? Of course that is what you were saying. You said, 'In far of the managing aspect of the game Mourinho is the closest thing to SAF you'll get'.
They are nothing alike. In terms of youth, style of football, transfers or job stability. He's not even similar to Ferguson, let alone the closest thing to him that you will get.
Your big transfer comparson was that they both 'take a good look at a player and make sure he's suited mentally for the team'. Ayee okay, he's like a fecking clone.
I mentioned Inter signings as well, and obviously they were mostly his deals at Chelsea. I deliberately ignored the Schevchenko signing because it was Abramovich's.
Our last Hernandez type signing wasn't Ole ffs. I'm not talking about strikers, the point is that he's a young player with potential, not an established star. In recent years Smalling, Jones, Powell, Henrique, Buttner are all the same type.
You wanna count Nani, Anderson and Ronaldo as well? Smalling and Jones were both highly sought after PL talents. You've got no idea how Henrique will develop and Buttner is simply a backup. Similar to Glen Johnson, Wright-Philips (whom you've already mentioned), Joe Cole, Wayne Bridge, Scott Parker, Lassana Diarra, Arjen Robben. Or is 23 too old?
In far of the managing aspect, the aspect that's relevant to being a manager and not what kind of person or public figure the man is (which is people's biggest gripe with Mourinho), he's the best there is.
His transfers at Real Madrid:
Özil - 21
Carvalho - 32
Di Maria - 22
Khedira - 23
Pedro Leon - 23
Sergio Canales - 19
Coentrao - 23
Sahin - 22
Varane - 18
Callejon - 24
Altintop - 28
Modric - 26.
What? You are chatting some shit mate. Shaun Wright Phillips cost £21million and you are comparing him to Buttner who cost £4million. No idea how you think this makes any sense. Their transfer strategy is nothing alike.
You need to find a clue, because you have no idea what you are talking about. Of those six other players you have mentioned, five weren't even signed by Mourinho. Cole, Johnson, Bridge, Parker and Robben were bought before he was manager.
As I said in my post before, Robben was the standout buy of that period and it wasn't even by Mourinho.
So from your list he has only Lassana Diarra, yeah he is a young prospect... But he only appeared in 17 league games over two years so left. Hardly most successful example is it. Compare that to the way Ferguson introduces our youngsters.
With your first point, how you can say that Smalling and Jones weren't prospects is beyond me. Smalling only had 13 games outside of non league football. He is blatantly a prospect and the vast majority of people wouldn't have expected the seamless transition he's made at United, clearly Fergie knew though. The same with Jones who is one of the rawest talents I have ever seen play for United. He is nowhere near the established player that Mourinho looks to bring in.. He doesn't even have a position yet.
I know what his transfers at Madrid are, not sure why you are posting them.
Which of those do you consider not to be established players? You have Di Maria there for example at 22, but he cost £30million and was an Argentinian International.
Canales is the exact type of signing I am talking about... Wonder what has happened to him?
Which of those do you consider not to be established players? You have Di Maria there for example at 22, but he cost £30million and was an Argentinian International.
Canales is the exact type of signing I am talking about... Wonder what has happened to him?
Shaun Wright Phillips cost £21million and you are comparing him to Buttner who cost £4million. No idea how you think this makes any sense. Their transfer strategy is nothing alike.
You need to find a clue, because you have no idea what you are talking about. Of those six other players you have mentioned, five weren't even signed by Mourinho. Cole, Johnson, Bridge, Parker and Robben were bought before he was manager.
As I said in my post before, Robben was the standout buy of that period and it wasn't even by Mourinho.
So from your list he has only Lassana Diarra, yeah he is a young prospect... But he only appeared in 17 league games over two years so left. Hardly most successful example is it. Compare that to the way Ferguson introduces our youngsters.
With your first point, how you can say that Smalling and Jones weren't prospects is beyond me. Smalling only had 13 games outside of non league football. He is blatantly a prospect and the vast majority of people wouldn't have expected the seamless transition he's made at United, clearly Fergie knew though. The same with Jones who is one of the rawest talents I have ever seen play for United. He is nowhere near the established player that Mourinho looks to bring in.. He doesn't even have a position yet.
My source was completely off. Listing players such as Ferreira as being bought the season before. So no wonder those transfers were all wrong.
I didn't say that Smalling and Jones weren't prospects. I said that they weren't a Hernandez type signing. No one had heard about Hernandez. Everyone knew who Smalling and Jones were. Jones was a regular at Blackburn and Smalling was becoming one at Fulham. That's why a player that had 19 games at the top level cost 10m pounds whilst an older player, who had already been playing international football for a year, cost much less.
There is no difference between the Smalling and Jones transfer and Rooney besides the transfer fee. Young players that every club in England knew about and wanted.
What does it matter anyway if the player is 20 and is a prospect or if the player is 20 or is established? Who would you rather have? I know what I'd like. I don't get it. Is bringing in 23 year olds such a cheap way of doing things now? And what's left of Mourinho's Chelsea since he left? Last season it was still the same core that he established, 8 years after he joined. He might not have stayed the whole time but it was still his mentality that was running things.
You're too hung up on a manager being exactly like SAF. That's not going to happen because there's no one like him. Wenger has been a long time at Arsenal and he's brought youth through there a lot but Mourinho is more like SAF. First and foremost there's the discipline. SAF has always had that throughout his career. So has Mourinho. 'Closest to' doesn't mean 'exactly alike'. Who do you reckon is more like SAF? I can't think of anyone in the PL who reminds me of a young Alex Ferguson.
Well you said
Özil was an old talent then? What about Varane (a player SAF supposedly didn't choose because he went with Jones instead)?
Canales was loaned out to Valencia for a fee and an option to buy. Valencia then chose to buy. Real has a buy back clause. Since joining Valencia he's basically been injured. Played as many games for them as he did for Real.
If we were going to get him I have to admit this feels like the season.
Feel like Ferguson will go at the end of this season. With our debt almost gone we can spend the money he'd want at the start of the season and don't think he'll stay at Madrid after the season they're having.
Feel like Ferguson will go at the end of this season. With our debt almost gone we can spend the money he'd want at the start of the season and don't think he'll stay at Madrid after the season they're having.
Eh? What? When did this happen? Have I missed something?
Next year with the increase of finances from Champions League, increased tv revenue and the new shirt deal almost in place, we'll be in a very very heallthy position revenue wise. The debt is now not an issue really.
I wouldn't mind Mourinho myself next season. Not sure he wants to leave Madrid though, and City will probably try to offer him big money as well.
Guardiola would be class too, but he's only proven himself at 1 club so far, so I'm not how I feel about him.
Guardiola would be class too, but he's only proven himself at 1 club so far, so I'm not how I feel about him.
I thought it was 2017, even with an increase from revenue and sponsors It doesn't necessarily mean those funds will be used to clear the debt or become available for transfers, there's a chance the money could end up somewhere else but this is something Fergie handles very well with the use of academy players and investing into youth players. This is something I can't imagine Jose doing. We needed a midfielder so Fergie bought Powell who at the time was playing for a Leauge Two club, Jose would probably laugh at the scout if he suggested buying someone like Powell.
If a scout suggested Powell as the solution to our midfield problems then laughing at him is the correct response. If Mourinho was given a long term managerial role I don't think there's any reason to say he'd laugh at the idea of signing Powell, unless you think he's shit or has no potential.
The debt is now at 360 million (probably lower as of now, but that was when our last results were out)
It'll probably be around 320 by the end of the year (maybe even lower). Roughly equivalent to our turnover in a year.
So at Chelsea, Inter and Real, he was hired to win trophies immediately, and therefore decided not to bring through youth - or not much, anyway.
So if he comes to us... what? We dont care too much about trophies? Or we do, but not straight away?
I dont really see the distinction between those three clubs and us, in terms of expectations.
People can argue about the differences between Fergie and Mourinho all day - but there are, for me, glaring similarities - being a huge personality and ability to take the pressure off the players, and repeated success.
Nobody can compare to Sir Alex in terms of success - but Jose Mourinho may come close. He's won trophies wherever he's been, with an underrated Porto, a Chelsea under the spectre of Roman, an aging and average Inter side and a very good Real Madrid side up against the "best side ever" in Barca.
To me the one reason Jose will have a top shout at getting the job is that he's a big enough name and personality not to be in Fergie's shadow as much as other cadidates might be. He seems keen to come back to the PL and given he's already managed in all the top leagues I see no reason he would want to do off after a couple of years as long as the board let him get on with the job, as they have with Fergie.
Guardiola is the other option - but I don't see that he's a man who "needs" football - walking away from Barca with that side raises issues about how bothered he is about being in the game at all. He's also had the benefit of having one of the best sides, and best youth sets ups ever to drive his success so until he does a job elsewhere, I'll have my doubts.
That's not the point he was making though, Those clubs are always about instant results and aren't concerned about building for the future. They'll buy talent that's fully developed rather than trying to bring talent through (ala United).
Whats the point of looking 5 years ahead when your working for Chelsea where you won't survive past the 3rd season, Inter where the press hated you and you never planned to stay for long and Real Madrid where it's frankly a miricle he survived the first season as the club is a cirus.
Give him a 10 year contract at a club, tell him he's in job for the long term and that it's not JUST about immediate success but building for the future long term.
And what? Fair enough hes not had the opportunity to prove he can build for the future, so whats to say he can. On one hand the Pro Jose brigade use "we need someone with a proven record of winning" as a reason he should have the job, yet they insist he will be able to build for the future despite having absoloutly no evidence to back it up yet.
And he is still a massive cock.
I like him, and I hope he succeeds Sir Alex.
He's a winner, and he gets the absolute best out of his players.
He's a winner, and he gets the absolute best out of his players.
I agree with all that RedRover. I mean, I understand all those things work in his favour.
I was trying to get my head around Wowi's point tho, in terms of how it related to us. It is specifically related to the question of youth development, which is not the main criteria, but a fairly important factor to a lot of United fans. Like many, I dont know one way or the other, what Mourinho would do with regards to giving a chance to kids. I suspect he would be happy to do it if he thought they were up to it. Whether he would devote as much energy to it as SAF has, I doubt, but he might quite enjoy that aspect to the job, being a new challenge for him.
Ive said this before and Ill say it again Im sure. My feelings about Mourinho are deeply ambivalent. On the one hand, I dont like the man, I think he has no class (Im thinking in particular of how he has handled his rivalry with Barca), and I, on balance, would rather he didnt manage us. On the other hand, I do think he is the most qualified for the job, and I think he would be the safest bet if the sole consideration is maximising the chances of immediate success post-SAF. I also think he is the candidate best suited to handling the pressure of succeeding SAF, which I think will be astronomical, and did for the managers who followed Busby.
These two positions do not sit comfortably together. But that is how I feel. I would rather take a risk on someone else who isnt as much of a wanker, than the relative certainty of bringing him in and winning trophies.
I would like someone humble, someone who would come in and see themselves as making themselves part of the fabric of our history, rather than thinking that we were becoming part of the fabric of theirs. If that makes sense.
Basically I just find Mourinho a massive fecking weapon. But if he comes, Ill do my best to get on board with it.
I was trying to get my head around Wowi's point tho, in terms of how it related to us. It is specifically related to the question of youth development, which is not the main criteria, but a fairly important factor to a lot of United fans. Like many, I dont know one way or the other, what Mourinho would do with regards to giving a chance to kids. I suspect he would be happy to do it if he thought they were up to it. Whether he would devote as much energy to it as SAF has, I doubt, but he might quite enjoy that aspect to the job, being a new challenge for him.
Ive said this before and Ill say it again Im sure. My feelings about Mourinho are deeply ambivalent. On the one hand, I dont like the man, I think he has no class (Im thinking in particular of how he has handled his rivalry with Barca), and I, on balance, would rather he didnt manage us. On the other hand, I do think he is the most qualified for the job, and I think he would be the safest bet if the sole consideration is maximising the chances of immediate success post-SAF. I also think he is the candidate best suited to handling the pressure of succeeding SAF, which I think will be astronomical, and did for the managers who followed Busby.
These two positions do not sit comfortably together. But that is how I feel. I would rather take a risk on someone else who isnt as much of a wanker, than the relative certainty of bringing him in and winning trophies.
I would like someone humble, someone who would come in and see themselves as making themselves part of the fabric of our history, rather than thinking that we were becoming part of the fabric of theirs. If that makes sense.
Basically I just find Mourinho a massive fecking weapon. But if he comes, Ill do my best to get on board with it.
This.....oh so much this.
Finally someone has expressed what I have been feeling but not able to put into words.
The man is a total cock end and if Utd houses him and Rooney at once I fear I may actually explode with pure rage. I WILL have a heart attack....I just know it.
Yes, fair enough.
A bit of a simplification though I think. No knowing he wants a job for 10 years. No knowing we will want him for 10 years. We have got used to a level of stability that I think makes it hard for us to envisage what the future will be like. I dont think anyone will be managing us for 10 years for a while after SAF goes to be honest.
But I do see the point that we have a tradition of bringing players through, so any manager would have more leeway to do that - if they wanted to. That is the point with Mourinho. Maybe for him the winning is more interesting and important than the building for the future. Maybe jobs that are geared to that suit his temperament better. No way of knowing at this stage.
Some posters still believe Mourinho's Chelsea sides never played superb attacking football. When the likes of Cole, Duff, Robben, Lampard, and Drogba were ticking they played some excellent attacking football. Ran circles around United a few times as well.
This is correct. There seems to be some sort of myth that Mourinho's sides play boring football and I am not sure where it comes from.
Mourinho as a coach is meticulous. He is of the philosophy that sometimes his team is not the best, but with good tactics that team can beat the best. Sometimes he grinds out a result but what he does works and brings success. Every player that has played for him, even our Ronnie, loves him as he seemingly forms connections with his players that no other coach seems to.
Yes he is arrogant and cocky but so what? Everyone hates United and Fergie has instilled the "seige" mentality into us long ago. It would be a perfect match in my opinion and one which would bring even more phenominal success to our club.
As I have said already, Sir Alex will have a say in who replaces him and from what I have seen so far he is very pro-Mourinho. He knows him alot better than any of us and seems to think that alot of what we see in the press is an act. I am happy to go with what Sir Alex thinks personally.
I can't help but feel that this appointment just isn't going to materialize due to timing. A lot can change in football, but SAF's retirement has to almost coincide with Mourinhos availability - & the way things are going for him at Madrid currently, can anyone see him still being there next season? & I certainly can't see SAF retiring at the end of this season.
& the very minute Mourinhos available, I can see both City & possibly even Chelsea (again) offering him blank cheques, which would be difficult to turn down/wait on SAF etc.
& the very minute Mourinhos available, I can see both City & possibly even Chelsea (again) offering him blank cheques, which would be difficult to turn down/wait on SAF etc.
Does anyone have a link for the itv documentary on him last night?
If you could pick either Jose or Pep, with the other going to City... who would you pick?
Jose for us, Pep for them would be my preference - Jose with the Shiekh's money would be even harder to stop than Jose with Roman's money was, and Pep still has questions to answer without the Barca team to play with.
That said, I have reservations about Jose joining us (and us having him while City had Pep would seem a little like they have the "good" one and we'd have the "evil" one
).The United job is unique tho, it has a different kind of appeal than the money on offer at Chelsea and City, partly because we are United and partly because its following SAF. It just depends what Mourinho wants. And what the board wants. But if they want him, and he wants to do it, I don't think they would let timing get in the way. I think there would have been a conversation, it would probably have been settled over one of those bottles of red SAF and Mourinho love sharing.
Theres a whole thread on this question. It's a very complicated and interesting one.
Pep and United are a match made in heaven.
will pep bring hordes of catalan talents to the youth side?
Maybe we can build a massive 400 bed dormitory at carrington and house them all?
on the other hand Jose will wind up scousers more. Would probably pull out his todger at anfield and run to centre circle to have a slash.
Maybe we can build a massive 400 bed dormitory at carrington and house them all?
on the other hand Jose will wind up scousers more. Would probably pull out his todger at anfield and run to centre circle to have a slash.
How so? He's played one brand of football his entire coaching career. The Barcelona team was raised on playing that specific brand of football. We don't have that. Our reserves and academy don't and can't play that kind of football. Most of our first team can't.
Whichever team hires him next will be taking a chance.
I don't agree with alot of peoples opinion about Mourinho not using youth, I think we also need to remember that teams pay Mourinho a truckload of money to win now and therefore his main focus is on that season, not the clubs future which he probably won't have any part in anyway. And it's not like Sir Alex doesn't do the same either. We could risk playing a young player like Jones at Center Half on a regular basis, where he's supposed to be in the future, just to give youth a chance and build for the future. But we don't and shouldn't take the risk either and therefore go with Vidic or whomever. Chelsea took the opposite approach and have been playing Luiz at center half and we all know how well thats worked for them.
For those on about Mourinho's alleged poor track record in bringing youth player through, can anyone name any youth players at Chelsea, Inter or Real Madrid that Mourinho didn't play who've went on to become something special?
For those on about Mourinho's alleged poor track record in bringing youth player through, can anyone name any youth players at Chelsea, Inter or Real Madrid that Mourinho didn't play who've went on to become something special?
That's the point though, it's not just about picking young players in the team, it's about focusing a certain amount of attention & resources on what is going on beneath the first-team surface. Mourinho hasn't much of a record for maintaining / improving a youth team system, that is a fact - whether it's because of the job's he's taken or whatever is not important, but it is a fact that he's unproven in that regard.
Those things require time. Only when/if he dedicates more than 3 seasons to a given club can we start to slowly evaluate how much effort he puts into it and what level of success he can achieve. I think most people who are benchmarks in that area have needed a good stretch of time. It takes medium-long term planning and dedication.
Yeah, but you guys aren't understanding that this is the crux of the matter - he is unproven, which is different from suggesting he's no good at it. It is still a valid consideration though.
Say you're hiring a potential employee, and you stipulate that being able to use Excel is a necessary skill. If an applicant comes in and says "I'm not familiar with it because my last job didn't demand it as a requirement" then are you expected to say "Right, well I'll assume you can do it when we hire you"? No, you put his lack of familiarity with Excel in the "Negatives" column and decide if his Positives out-weight it.