Mo Salah

[harms]

Do you really think Giggs underachieved because of predictions people had of him when he was a teen? How is that? He achieved everything possible. If someone said he would achieve all this when he was a teen we would not have believed it.

Some of the most decorated and celebrated players of all-time underachieved relative to their talent, it's not a contradiction. Although usually it's their lifestyle (Best, Maradona, L. Ronaldo etc.) or injuries (L. Ronaldo, van Basten etc.) but still. Giggs was world-class for a good few seasons and he was a crucial part of multiple different title-winning teams at United over two decades... yet he was never the man. Cantona, Keane, Beckham, Cristiano, Rooney... there always was someone better and/or more important there, usually a few people. And when he was just coming through, that untouchable electric left-footed reincarnation of George Best, it felt like sky was the limit for him and he'd be the best and the most important player at United & Great Britain... at least.

The closest he came to that status were those late 1990's big European games when he was often our most potent attacking threat but still. I don't think that it's the perfect way to access individual level of footballers but Ballon d'Or long-lists are quite damning in that regard. He barely ever broke through top-20 (joint 9th in 1993 and 14th in 2009) — while other wingers and attacking midfielders regularly got high placements (Beckham) or even wins (Figo, Nedved).

 

[Salt Bailly]

Barnes, Alonso? Crouch to at extent although I don't really see him as a Liverpool player.

Personally I don't see anything likeable about Salah. Nothing too bad, of course, but his personality or playing style don't quite transcend my tribalist worldview. He also dives from time to time — not too much overall but enough to justify disliking a Liverpool player.

Barnes was a bit before my time! Alonso is a good shout though. Likeable isn't the right word, I just don't detest him. Which is rare for a Liverpool player.

 

[stevoc]

Some of the most decorated and celebrated players of all-time underachieved relative to their talent, it's not a contradiction. Although usually it's their lifestyle (Best, Maradona, L. Ronaldo etc.) or injuries (L. Ronaldo, van Basten etc.) but still. Giggs was world-class for a good few seasons and he was a crucial part of multiple different title-winning teams at United over two decades... yet he was never the man. Cantona, Keane, Beckham, Cristiano, Rooney... there always was someone better and/or more important there, usually a few people. And when he was just coming through, that untouchable electric left-footed reincarnation of George Best, it felt like sky was the limit for him and he'd be the best and the most important player at United & Great Britain... at least.

The closest he came to that status were those late 1990's big European games when he was often our most potent attacking threat but still. I don't think that it's the perfect way to access individual level of footballers but Ballon d'Or long-lists are quite damning in that regard. He barely ever broke through top-20 (joint 9th in 1993 and 14th in 2009) — while other wingers and attacking midfielders regularly got high placements (Beckham) or even wins (Figo, Nedved).

Giggs was the best Winger or Left Winger in the world for quite a few seasons. He was talented enough to do anything but I think he never became the main man the team was built around in no small part because he to an extent sacrificed himself for the good of the team. He and Beckham in that 442 did a lot of defensive work, had he played more centally he would have been a much bigger attacking threat and influence on the team.

As you say in some of those big European nights he was given more licence to attack and less defensive responsibility. In those games even Europes top teams had to put 2 players on him to stop him at times.

 

[Fobal]

In their style of play. Both left footed playmakers playing on the right and similar dribbling style.

Obviously Messi vastly superior in most aspects (free kicks especially)

I don't see Salah similar to Messi.

In fact Messi had an aspect due to his extraordinary talent that was very diff from Salah and it's one of the best traits of the Egiptian: running into channels, into open spaces, that's one of the best characteristics from Salah that Messi rarely used and shows quite a different style and approach to the game.

If I think of players actually similar to Messi, or better said HIM similar to prior ones, I'll think of Zico primarly (he could have been his uncle, even physically regarding their looks), even Best, some Diego in him and to a less extent Johan.

 

[PhenomenalFooty101]

Closest player to Messi who isn’t Messi

A brilliant player but nowhere near Messi. His close control and technical ability cannot match Messi

 

[Brazilian_Ronaldo_9]

A brilliant player but nowhere near Messi. His close control and technical ability cannot match Messi

I don’t think he means he’s near the level of Messi. He means similar style of play and motions of dribbling. He was called the Egyptian Messi when coming through the ranks at youth level.

 

[RedRoach]

A brilliant player but nowhere near Messi. His close control and technical ability cannot match Messi

Clearly not. Never said it did

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

It might be the wrong wording but I’m only talking in regards to peak, overall his had the best career in PL history as a player in the most successful team and manager in English football. But I’m not sure he quite reached the pinnacle pn an individual level he was supposed to.

Remember this was a young man who had been heavily hyped to be the next Best, before he broke through into United first teams and someone by the time he was 18-19 actually looked like it wasn’t a crazy thing to say. By the time he was supposed to his peak, you could argue there wasn’t really a season where he was the best player, Keane Cantona Beckham Schmeichel Yorke all could be argued to be more impactful than him at a certain point.

When I say he underachieved the standard is in comparison to being a Ballon d’or level best player in the world, rather than just a top 5 winger in the world which he was in at peak.

All in all it’s easy to say that because not every player is a Cr7 who goes beyond what was predicted of him or a Messi who fulfils every bit of that promise, really Giggs did incredible well and beat the odds to even have the career he did, there are a few players similarly hyped up as teens who didn’t go on to have half his career, if anything that comment was more to emphasise just how much of an alien a teen Giggs was talent wise.

I really don’t agree at all. I think it looks that way because with United/Ferguson it was never about the individual and always about the team. But Giggs was world class for some seasons and the best left winger in Europe. Ronaldo became world class after leaving United but wasn’t at United yet. When he left United it became more about him than the club he played for, it still is with him. Maybe Giggs could have been more in the spotlight if he had left United. But I don’t believe at all he underachieved looking at what people thought of him as a teen. He was one of the very best, in the team that worked for each other and did it together and not alone as one star.

 

[Righteous Steps]

I really don’t agree at all. I think it looks that way because with United/Ferguson it was never about the individual and always about the team. But Giggs was world class for some seasons and the best left winger in Europe. Ronaldo became world class after leaving United but wasn’t at United yet. When he left United it became more about him than the club he played for, it still is with him. Maybe Giggs could have been more in the spotlight if he had left United. But I don’t believe at all he underachieved looking at what people thought of him as a teen. He was one of the very best, in the team that worked for each other and did it together and not alone as one star.

Ronaldo was the best player in the world when he left United and had arguably the greatest individual PL season of all time. The type of season he had before he left to Madrid is the type of season in impact that many who saw a 18 year old Giggs would expect to have, but I think @harms post summed it up better.

 

[That_Bloke]

In their style of play. Both left footed playmakers playing on the right and similar dribbling style.

Obviously Messi vastly superior in most aspects (free kicks especially)

No. Just no.

 

[RedRoach]

No. Just no.

You don’t think Sala is a playmaker? Or you don’t think their dribbling style is similar?

Obviously different players but watched both extensively and there are similarities to me though Salah doesn’t come inside much like Messi did and doesn’t have anywhere near the passing range.

 

[redallover87]

Ronaldo was the best player in the world when he left United and had arguably the greatest individual PL season of all time. The type of season he had before he left to Madrid is the type of season in impact that many who saw a 18 year old Giggs would expect to have, but I think @harms post summed it up better.

I really don’t agree at all. I think it looks that way because with United/Ferguson it was never about the individual and always about the team. But Giggs was world class for some seasons and the best left winger in Europe. Ronaldo became world class after leaving United but wasn’t at United yet. When he left United it became more about him than the club he played for, it still is with him. Maybe Giggs could have been more in the spotlight if he had left United. But I don’t believe at all he underachieved looking at what people thought of him as a teen. He was one of the very best, in the team that worked for each other and did it together and not alone as one star.

I am not sure that giggs was ever THE best winger in europe,as i cannot remember for sure just how good figo was because it was along time ago and i never watched la liga as often as i watched the prem,but giggs was certainly worldclass,and one of the very best in world.Maybe giggs was the best winger in europe before figo got his bal on'dor?Ronaldo and Giggs certainly had the best logevity and trophy count.

From what i recall the best wingers i have seen before 07/08 cr7 were giggs,pires,figo,beckham and robben.Cristiano 07/08 was comfortably better than any of them though.And that was in a ferguson team where it was about the team.In fact most of the best players play for managers where the main focus is the team as a collective,as managers that give players a free ride tend to get nowhere,especially in top leagues.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

In their style of play. Both left footed playmakers playing on the right and similar dribbling style.

Obviously Messi vastly superior in most aspects (free kicks especially)

Salah and Messi don't dribble similarly at all.

Like not even close.

 

[Suedesi]

Just a brilliant player

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

Must be the finest all round player in the world right now. Has it all whilst never missing a game. No wonder his team are cruising with this fella pulling the strings every week. And then you look at our equivalents….. FFS.

 

[redallover87]

See, that's my immediate take too, but thinking more about it, I'm not so sure that's true actually. Salah just happened to play for a way better team than Henry did at Arsenal, one that wasn't as reliant on him winning games for them to actually win those games. Just look at their most famous european performance of the Klopp era and then look where Salah was that night...

Actually, by all accounts those pros were *against* signing Darwin, and it was Klopp that insisted on it on got his way

I think Mane has to be in there too. Top 3 of african players is Eto'o, Salah and Mane, in terms of quality. When you factor in legacy and fame, etc, then Drogba and Weah are huge as well, and Yaya too I guess(who was the best player of those 3). Also Madjer

Henry never came close to replicating his prem form in europe,when there was every reason to do so.I do think that the 'invincible' side is overrated but they were definitely a great side.Salah's european stats are comparable to his prem stats,so is his quality of play.Missing that barcelona game means nothing other than proving that players miss games.Eto'o and drogba were great,but they lack the consistancy and 'magic' ,or variety of goals for me to rate them as the best.

 

[redallover87]

I would pick Salah over Bale/Robben. His durability far outweighs both at this point. I also think he's easier to fit in teams to be effective.

I do think Robben's 2014-2015 season prior to his injury was on track to be potentially better than any of Salah's best seasons, but he got injured, so it's rather moot.

It's actually staggering how fit Salah is. He's got 5 seasons of 50 games played at Liverpool. Robben only has 2 seasons in his career where he hit 40+ after his move to Chelsea.

Bale has more seasons than Robben does, but he also tailed off a lot after the 2017-2018 season as a player. He was in position to take the mantle with Ronaldo's departure at Real and he was pretty poor the following season. Not sure either of them have much of an argument over Salah.

Robben was on track to better 17/18 salah?he would have had to score or assist more than 58 times in the league and ucl combined,without even taking pens...

 

[Zen]

Robben was on track to better 17/18 salah?he would have had to score or assist more than 58 times in the league and ucl combined,without even taking pens...

Nah he wasn't, not even close. Robben was on a goal involvement every 90 minutes, Salah 72..... 1 penalty between them isn't making that up either. Even going clubs alone it's 81 minutes vs 69 minutes, with the penalty swing now to Robben has he scored 2 for Bayern to Salah's 1 for Liverpool.

 

[Fobal]

You don’t think Sala is a playmaker? Or you don’t think their dribbling style is similar?

Obviously different players but watched both extensively and there are similarities to me though Salah doesn’t come inside much like Messi did and doesn’t have anywhere near the passing range.

Leaving talent aside.

Like I've said before, Salah likes more to run into space, to receive the ball with advantage, to play more like a winger even if he might do his play for himself...to try a dribble mostly in the final third or the big area.
Messi due to his ability and composure to dribble or keep it from zero, mostly ask for it at his feet. It's not that great to do that almost the whole time, but being Messi you can pull it out.
I'll say it's great from Moh to always, even being a very skill fella, try to run into channels, into space.

A player similar to Messi is Zico, no Moh.

The one thing that Moh has some Messi in him, it's placement in his finishing, he tries like Leo to slot the ball many times, more than just brute force, like his last goal. He has some Messiesque goals like the last one and also he is a player that like Messi, can take his time in the area, one last faint, a chip, a little dribble to send everyone throught the door and later him scoring with composure.

PD: sometimes I wonder if Messi didn't feel his whole life so much as an enganche, as aprovider and goalscorer, if he had played in his last years a more Romariosque role, how fun that could have been.
Of course Barca mostly couldn't afford him there, nor Argentina, (not even fecking Inter Miami) but would have been so much fun Messi as a Romario alike striker

 

[Powderfinger]

Henry never came close to replicating his prem form in europe,when there was every reason to do so.I do think that the 'invincible' side is overrated but they were definitely a great side.Salah's european stats are comparable to his prem stats,so is his quality of play.Missing that barcelona game means nothing other than proving that players miss games.Eto'o and drogba were great,but they lack the consistancy and 'magic' ,or variety of goals for me to rate them as the best.

Over his career Henry had 72 goal involvements in 8603 CL minutes or one every 119 minutes.

Salah has 63 goal involvements in 6799 CL minutes or one overy 108 minutes.

Its hardly some massive difference, especially when you consider that Salah played in a side that was more attacking-minded and scored more goals in general.

 

[duffer]

Messi is as if you added Salah and Hazard's best attributes.

 

[redallover87]

Over his career Henry had 72 goal involvements in 8603 CL minutes or one every 119 minutes.

Salah has 63 goal involvements in 6799 CL minutes or one overy 108 minutes.

Its hardly some massive difference, especially when you consider that Salah played in a side that was more attacking-minded and scored more goals in general.

It is not a massive difference,but it is noticable,which can easily be the difference between getting to the next round or not in knockout tornaments.

Were arsenal less attack minded? They played with henry,bergkamp,pires and lljungberg while lfc played with mane,firmino,salah and trent.I think that lfc had the more consistant scorers,so they scored more in europe because salah did not let his consistancy slip,whereas henry did to a point and i donot know why.

Henry was always a great player,i just never felt like he was a monster of a player in the ucl like he was in the prem.Maybe he was better in the ucl than i remember,i would need to have a look as it was along time ago now.If he replicated his best prem form in the ucl,he would surely have multiple world player of the year/bal on'dor awards.

 

[Fobal]

Messi is as if you added Salah and Hazard's best attributes.

There are aspects of both that can be associated to Messi, even Mac Allister has some Leo in his body type and some movements....

Yet Leo it's more in the Best, Zico, line of production...
Sivori, Rivelino, Maradona and Ronaldinho are in other line,
Di Stefano, Charlton, Cryuff and Platini in another
and Moreno, Pele and Eusebio can be in another group.

None of them copycats, thought the Best, Zico and Messi line it's quite similar in their traits

 

[Fobal]

It is not a massive difference,but it is noticable,which can easily be the difference between getting to the next round or not in knockout tornaments.

Were arsenal less attack minded? They played with henry,bergkamp,pires and lljungberg while lfc played with mane,firmino,salah and trent.I think that lfc had the more consistant scorers,so they scored more in europe because salah did not let his consistancy slip,whereas henry did to a point and i donot know why.

Henry was always a great player,i just never felt like he was a monster of a player in the ucl like he was in the prem.Maybe he was better in the ucl than i remember,i would need to have a look as it was along time ago now.If he replicated his best prem form in the ucl,he would surely have multiple world player of the year/bal on'dor awards.

The other day I've read that he never scored in a final, I always felt he had, it's that true with titi? how many he has played?

PD: Other strange and bizarre stats are: Figo , Ibra and Lampard (well he did actually) not scoring in WCs, bizarre

 

[Zen]

It is not a massive difference,but it is noticable,which can easily be the difference between getting to the next round or not in knockout tornaments.

Were arsenal less attack minded? They played with henry,bergkamp,pires and lljungberg while lfc played with mane,firmino,salah and trent.I think that lfc had the more consistant scorers,so they scored more in europe because salah did not let his consistancy slip,whereas henry did to a point and i donot know why.

Henry was always a great player,i just never felt like he was a monster of a player in the ucl like he was in the prem.Maybe he was better in the ucl than i remember,i would need to have a look as it was along time ago now.If he replicated his best prem form in the ucl,he would surely have multiple world player of the year/bal on'dor awards.

None of the players that won the Ballon d'0r in Henry's pomp actually won the CL(Ronaldinho won the double in 2006... didn't get him the ballon d'or)... so you are kinda right in that winning it likely would have put him over the edge, but there is no logic to Shevchenko winning it over him in 2004. His period of greatness was bookended with two players winning purely on World Cup performances, and then having 5 different for 6 awards in the other 3 years while he was the most consistent out of all those players in that timeframe.

Maybe voters regretted that Owen award so much they didn't want to let a Prem player win for a while.

 

[giorno]

Maybe voters regretted that Owen award so much they didn't want to let a Prem player win for a while.

Not too far off actually I think. PL just didn't have the same international recognition as Serie A or La Liga back then either. Go back to 2004, outside of the UK, ask football fans who are the best teams in the world, the answer would be either Milan or Madrid. Arsenal were almost an afterthought while going unbeaten in the PL...

not saying arsenal weren't that good, i'm saying the PL was seen as behind Italy and Spain by enough that being amazing in PL meant little to poeple outside the UK

 

[Kwabs]

Henry never came close to replicating his prem form in europe,when there was every reason to do so.I do think that the 'invincible' side is overrated but they were definitely a great side.Salah's european stats are comparable to his prem stats,so is his quality of play.Missing that barcelona game means nothing other than proving that players miss games.Eto'o and drogba were great,but they lack the consistancy and 'magic' ,or variety of goals for me to rate them as the best.

Eto'o was a much better player than Salah, IMO. For starters, he actually showed up at international level, especially in the AFCON.

 

[Zen]

Not too far off actually I think. PL just didn't have the same international recognition as Serie A or La Liga back then either. Go back to 2004, outside of the UK, ask football fans who are the best teams in the world, the answer would be either Milan or Madrid. Arsenal were almost an afterthought while going unbeaten in the PL...

not saying arsenal weren't that good, i'm saying the PL was seen as behind Italy and Spain by enough that being amazing in PL meant little to poeple outside the UK

Nah, I get that. Even I probably put too much emphasis on European teams for no overt reason, or mainly because the Euro boom allowed for utterly absurd transfer fees that made me actually believe some of these players were that good on top of their bloated CM stats!

I also don't think Europe particularly cares about an undefeated league as much as Arsenal and some English do. (Neither do I, especially when you lose in every other competition to all your closest rivals, including Europe).... but either way, there's still no logic to Shevchenko over Henry, other than basically as you allude, outside of United, English teams didn't quite have enough of a image to push him over the line on PR alone.

 

[giorno]

I also don't think Europe particularly cares about an undefeated league as much as Arsenal and some English do. (Neither do I, especially when you lose in every other competition to all your closest rivals, including Europe).... but either way, there's still no logic to Shevchenko over Henry, other than basically as you allude, outside of United, English teams didn't quite have enough of a image to push him over the line on PR alone.

That's what I was getting at. Though it should be noted that Sheva didn't win over Henry. He won over Ronaldinho(and Deco, because Porto+Portugal) which is arguably worse

 

[PickledRed]

Eto'o was a much better player than Salah, IMO. For starters, he actually showed up at international level, especially in the AFCON.

Fair enough if you think Eto’o is better but the international angle is surely a sideshow in the discussion, plus Salah has been very important for his country.

Salah has 59 goals in 103 matches; Eto’o has 56 goals in 118 matches.

Either way, it’s not really the defining metric to show how one is better than the other.

 

[Gio]

Not too far off actually I think. PL just didn't have the same international recognition as Serie A or La Liga back then either. Go back to 2004, outside of the UK, ask football fans who are the best teams in the world, the answer would be either Milan or Madrid. Arsenal were almost an afterthought while going unbeaten in the PL...

not saying arsenal weren't that good, i'm saying the PL was seen as behind Italy and Spain by enough that being amazing in PL meant little to poeple outside the UK

Yeah, and there's a case that Valencia and Deportivo were ahead of Madrid at that point. Either way La Liga had been dominating for years.

 

[Kwabs]

Fair enough if you think Eto’o is better but the international angle is surely a sideshow in the discussion, plus Salah has been very important for his country.

Salah has 59 goals in 103 matches; Eto’o has 56 goals in 118 matches.

Either way, it’s not really the defining metric to show how one is better than the other.

It isn't a sideshow to the discussion, it is far and away the most important thing. It's actually quite disrespectful to suggest otherwise. It's so sad that people here always look at things through Eurocentric eyes.

Eto'o holds the record for the most goals scored in the AFCON, has top scored in the tournament multiple times and is a multiple winner of the competition, in addition to helping his country qualify for multiple World Cups. Salah has done none of these things, and he plays for (historically) one of the most successful African nations. Therefore, he is not as good.

 

[giorno]

Yeah, and there's a case that Valencia and Deportivo were ahead of Madrid at that point. Either way La Liga had been dominating for years.

And in hindsight that general perception was wrong, too, the PL was on the same level as the other two and Henry certainly was better than Shevchenko...except he was kinda poor at Euro 2004. I think that played its part too

 

[PickledRed]

It isn't a sideshow to the discussion, it is far and away the most important thing. It's actually quite disrespectful to suggest otherwise. It's so sad that people here always look at things through Eurocentric eyes.

Eto'o holds the record for the most goals scored in the AFCON, has top scored in the tournament multiple times and is a multiple winner of the competition, in addition to helping his country qualify for multiple World Cups. Salah has done none of these things, and he plays for (historically) one of the most successful African nations. Therefore, he is not as good.

It’s not Eurocentric. I’d be equally cautious about a European footballer if it was relevant. International football isn’t the pinnacle of football despite what we’re often told. Salah has an incredible record in a very tough league and continues to be incredible.

Whether he’s better than Eto’o is up for debate, but laying it on international record and performance at AFCON is not convincing. Nor would it be if it was about the Euros - of which Milan Baros has a golden boot.

 

[Kwabs]

It’s not Eurocentric. I’d be equally cautious about a European footballer if it was relevant. International football isn’t the pinnacle of football despite what we’re often told. Salah has an incredible record in a very tough league and continues to be incredible.

Whether he’s better than Eto’o is up for debate, but laying it on international record and performance at AFCON is not convincing. Nor would it be if it was about the Euros - of which Milan Baros has a golden boot.

Well it might not be convincing if Eto'o was bad at club level and elite at international level (not very common, but it happens). But he was elite at both. Salah is elite at one, and only for one club. Everyone else has forgotten about him at Basel and in Italy (where he was good, but hardly what he is now: at Basel he was often running around like a headless chicken), but I haven't.

As it is, the international exploits of Eto'o are very convincing. What you have to remember is that for those guys, what they do for their country far outweighs what they do for any European club.

Same with Brazilians etc. I find it hilarious when people talk about Neymar not doing this and that in Europe or the Champions League, when Neymar himself will only be disappointed about not winning with Brazil. That's it.

It's not all about what you do or don't do in the Premier League. That's looking at it through a reductive lens.

 

[PickledRed]

That's looking at it through a reductive lens.

Yep. It certainly is.

 

[Chipper]

Surely Eto'o had much better teammates for Cameroon than Salah has for Egypt when talking about international achievements?

Sorry if it's Eurocentric, but he got to play with many more players who at one point or other was playing in a major European league. If everything else was equal he was bound to do more looking back at the names he played with.

Salah's most notable teammate has been Elneny, a lot his teammates playing domestically in Egypt. Eto'o got to play with a conservative 15-20 players as or more prominent in European football.

This isn't me saying Eto'o wasn't better, just that the international argument isn't a fair comparison.

 

[ggtnxbb]

Just look at the Egypt of today and the Cameroon squad of the Eto'o prime years - pretty much all Egypt players play in the local league, while almost the entire Cameroon squad was playing in mid-level European clubs, mostly in Spain and France.

 

[Kwabs]

Surely Eto'o had much better teammates for Cameroon than Salah has for Egypt when talking about international achievements?

Sorry if it's Eurocentric, but he got to play with many more players who at one point or other was playing in a major European league. If everything else was equal he was bound to do more looking back at the names he played with.

Salah's most notable teammate has been Elneny, a lot his teammates playing domestically in Egypt. Eto'o got to play with a conservative 15-20 players as or more prominent in European football.

This isn't me saying Eto'o wasn't better, just that the international argument isn't a fair comparison.

Its not a negligible point, but Egypt have always had great success in the AFCON, with mostly home-based players. 2006 and 2010, for example, their victorious squads were almost all playing for Egyptian clubs. You add Salah to that mix and it's guaranteed further success, and kicking on to the next level, right? Nope.

Also, you'd think he'd be able to help them qualify for the World Cup more than he has.

 

[Kwabs]

Just look at the Egypt of today and the Cameroon squad of the Eto'o prime years - pretty much all Egypt players play in the local league, while almost the entire Cameroon squad was playing in mid-level European clubs, mostly in Spain and France.

This didn't stop Egypt winning the AFCON multiple times before Salah, in the 21st century. His scoring record in the competition is also not good.