I don’t disagree with it. At relative ages Giggs and Ronaldo were unbelievable talents, both had break neck pace and a box of tricks and there were question marks over whether either would be able to translate it to end product and kick on. They both did, no question about that.
Mo Salah
- Thread starter Robbie Boy
- Start date
You miss the guy who turned Liverpool into one of the best sides ever seen? You do you I guess...
And I may be wrong but I don't think Giggs ever had the kind of hype of a young Cristiano. The latter was seen as having a George Best type of potential
Just read the first couple of pages of this thread, players who were brought into the conversation.
Walcott..
Bramble..
Pennant
Morata..
Safe to say not many saw it coming.
Giggs was the original Best comparison, he did have a lot of attention as a young player, 50 appearances for Utd at 18 and he was tearing teams apart with his pace.
Giggs was a sensation and thrived in a very strong environment which was integral in his success. Similar to how young players have succeeded under Klopp and Pep. By contrast, Rashford has wilted due, in part , to the cultural toxicity he’s experienced.
How do you not see that was a joke?!
I pointed out Nunez was a shit signing, you said Klopp was the one who pushed for Nunez and then I said I really miss him.
This place sometimes!
Did messi win a title with every Balon D'or?
I dont really know?
I dont really know?
I find it hard to make a clear comparison between the two in Europe. Statistically I can see the argument in Salah's favour, 70 games, 43 goals, 17 assists, or a goal and assist every 94 minutes for Liverpool in the CL. That compares favourably to Henry with a goal and assist every 126 minutes in the CL for Arsenal. But then they played in different eras. So Salah contributed 43% (through goals and assists) of Liverpool's goals in the CL, while Henry contributed to 52% of Arsenal's. Therefore Henry has had less output, but had to operate as more of a singular force for his club. That reflects Liverpool plundering more goals in the modern-day CL whereas Arsenal were not as far ahead of most of their opponents, owing to the greater competitiveness across Europe at the time.
For me they have both produced great moments and contributed heavily over the years in Europe.
Possibly the best Liverpool side ever - 2018 to 2020. In the calendar year of 2019 Liverpool won 101 out of 111 available. Absurd across 37 games. Plus they won the CL. That’s all-time great status in terms of winning matches - certainly by English standards.
I’m not expecting flowers on a United forum - a place where the current Liverpool squad is described as ‘mainly average’ - but dismissing what Klopp built is a bit blinkered.
You are wrong that’s exactly how Giggs was seen.
Think he only won the Spanish cup in 2012? But scored 91 goals that stupid ridiculous season that deserved the Ballon d’Or.
I take issue with the whole “greatest of all time” nonsense. It was a good side and won a single premier league and single champions league and not even in the same years. I could name 20 team over the last 20 years that have achieved that and more. It’s hyperbole to say it’s “one of the greatest of all time”, it’s a very normal achievement. Your points total would have been more impressive if your rivals at the time didn’t prove it entirely plausible by posting bigger points total which tells you the strength of the league.
I think Slot has reinvigorated Salah and that has been a major factor in the season Liverpool have had. It was pretty clear his relationship with Klopp had broken down last season, throwing hissy fits when being substituted and verbals with Klopp on the sideline.
Come back Jurgen, all is forgiven!
Come back Jurgen, all is forgiven!
What's actually nonsense is (only) looking at trophies won in a given year/season to assess whether a team fits in the "greatest of all time" categories.
I could give you countless examples of athletes and teams who are in such conversations without having won anything. Not the greatest of all time, but purely based on on-field performances and results, amongst them. Liverpool 2018/2019 or 2019/2020 won't be remembered as such teams imo but there have been very few teams in PL history who were better and more consistent on the field.
In terms of Salah vs. Henry, Salah's record in big games for Liverpool has been far better than Henry's in big games for Arsenal.
IIRC Henry never scored any goals in FA Cup semi-finals or finals, scored very few goals in Champions League knockout games (obviously the most famous one was at the Bernabeu in 2006), and also scored very few Premier League goals away to Man Utd, Tottenham, Chelsea and Liverpool.
I remember one of his best, and few, goals in those big away league games, was a consolation goal when Arsenal were battered 6-1 at Old Trafford with Yorke scoring a hat-trick. I think that nearly two thirds of his Premier League goals were scored at home.
I found him to be more fun to watch than Salah though, but I also found Ronaldinho to be more fun to watch than either Messi or CRonaldo.
IIRC Henry never scored any goals in FA Cup semi-finals or finals, scored very few goals in Champions League knockout games (obviously the most famous one was at the Bernabeu in 2006), and also scored very few Premier League goals away to Man Utd, Tottenham, Chelsea and Liverpool.
I remember one of his best, and few, goals in those big away league games, was a consolation goal when Arsenal were battered 6-1 at Old Trafford with Yorke scoring a hat-trick. I think that nearly two thirds of his Premier League goals were scored at home.
I found him to be more fun to watch than Salah though, but I also found Ronaldinho to be more fun to watch than either Messi or CRonaldo.
Ok. As long as you’re gatekeeping such issues we can continue to downplay Klopp’s brilliance.
As for the ‘other club’ posting high totals, there might be mitigation involved there and I’m sure you’ll reappraise your verdict if it’s proven that Klopp competed with blatant cheats.
Indeed. I'm old enough to remember him coming through and he was pretty much seen as "the new George Best" instantly.
Obviously the hype for C Ronaldo was different but that's more to do with the shift in tone and also the extent of football coverage in the media when they both respectively burst onto the scene.
But also what does "one of the greatest" mean? Top 10? Or a certain level of play? Who are we comparing to and for how long do they need to do it?
Oh my b
Well seems i'm wrong a lot today!
Btw, 21/22 Liverpool team was the best Liverpool side for me
Oh my b
Well seems i'm wrong a lot today!
Btw, 21/22 Liverpool team was the best Liverpool side for me
Makes a change… It leads to another point though as great as Giggs and I would even add Rooney were and -as decorated their career was, there is still a feeling that the both of them sort of underachieved all in all but that’s only because of the lofty standards and predictions people had of them when they were teens.
It’s often a loose definition which allows people to set their own parameters and therefore able to dismiss a great side as they haven’t fulfilled some arbitrary metric that is apparently a non-negotiable. Hence why such debates are often a bit futile.
I think he is in top 5 PL players of all time along with KDB, Henry, Rooney and Bruno.
It’s the hair transplant.
this can’t be right.
Wow...
I am thinking only Henry can compare to Salah at this point. Did you mean Bruno or the other Portuguese attacker who played for Man Utd?
He was very literally touted as George Best's long-awaited natural successor during the 1990's. The comparisons were everywhere, they even made an entire documentary about it in 1993:
Eventually he didn't quite live up to it despite having a near-perfect (well, on the pitch) career.
Is this one of these spot the odd one out tests?
2009: Lead Barcelona to the first ever clean sweep of the trophies on offer (sextuple) so yes as it included La Liga
2010: Led Barcelona to La Liga
2010: Led Barcelona to a UCL and La Liga double
2012: This was the 91 goals calendar year (73 goals and 24 assists for the season). Set the all time world record for goals in a year and goals in a season. Had 114 goal contributions (a chasm between him and 2nd place all time)
2015: Lead Barcelona to their 2nd treble (his 4th league and UCL double)
2019: Led Barcelona to the league and Cup double
2021: Led Argentina to copa America, becoming top scorer and top playmaker in the process and setting the Copa America record for highest match rating and highest number of MOM awards in a single campaign.
2022: Led Argentina to the world cup, again setting a record for most MOM awards in a campaign and becoming the only player to score in all KO stage matches (goal in every stage as well as MOM in every stage).
And you could hear commentators make the comparisons all the time. His goals against QPR and Tottenham in the 1993-1994 seasons come to mind. He dribbled past 5 players against QPR and the commentator said "it could easily be George Best".
Against Tottenham, he put the ball through a defenders legs, picked it up on the other sidex then rounded the keeper and scored from an acute angle. Again, I remember a comparison with George Best there.
And as you posted, there was a video (I never managed to watch it so thanks for sharing).
Neymar isn’t a left footed playmaker who plays on the right. Very different player stylistically.
In their style of play. Both left footed playmakers playing on the right and similar dribbling style.
Obviously Messi vastly superior in most aspects (free kicks especially)
I think he's the first likeable player they've ever had.
Do you really think Giggs underachieved because of predictions people had of him when he was a teen? How is that? He achieved everything possible. If someone said he would achieve all this when he was a teen we would not have believed it.
Not Andy Robertson?
If you separate Giggs himself from the teams success there is an argument he didn't quite become the player we thought.
His 20's especially, just not really what you thought he'd be. Alway felt his game never really improved from those first couple of years. But United were so successful it kind of got overlooked a bit.
But his 30's were great I thought, the way he reinvented himself.
A close second.
Barnes, Alonso? Crouch to at extent although I don't really see him as a Liverpool player.
Personally I don't see anything likeable about Salah. Nothing too bad, of course, but his personality or playing style don't quite transcend my tribalist worldview. He also dives from time to time — not too much overall but enough to justify disliking a Liverpool player.
Salah is absolute class. Top 3 PL striker.
It might be the wrong wording but I’m only talking in regards to peak, overall his had the best career in PL history as a player in the most successful team and manager in English football. But I’m not sure he quite reached the pinnacle pn an individual level he was supposed to.
Remember this was a young man who had been heavily hyped to be the next Best, before he broke through into United first teams and someone by the time he was 18-19 actually looked like it wasn’t a crazy thing to say. By the time he was supposed to his peak, you could argue there wasn’t really a season where he was the best player, Keane Cantona Beckham Schmeichel Yorke all could be argued to be more impactful than him at a certain point.
When I say he underachieved the standard is in comparison to being a Ballon d’or level best player in the world, rather than just a top 5 winger in the world which he was in at peak.
All in all it’s easy to say that because not every player is a Cr7 who goes beyond what was predicted of him or a Messi who fulfils every bit of that promise, really Giggs did incredible well and beat the odds to even have the career he did, there are a few players similarly hyped up as teens who didn’t go on to have half his career, if anything that comment was more to emphasise just how much of an alien a teen Giggs was talent wise.