Flick managed Hoffenheim when they were playing in the 3rd and 4th German division. So Bayern pretty much gave it Giggsy til the end of the season and it worked beautifully.
Löw was already managing clubs, albeit with mixed results at best.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Löw was already managing clubs, albeit with mixed results at best.
It's the classic debate of "yeah but they have a poor squad" against "but who oversaw that poor squad" that we've had with our own club the last few years.
Their biggest problem is that unless they put massive wad in they'll still not be anywhere near the top. But they are undoubtedly massively under achieving.
Their biggest problem is that unless they put massive wad in they'll still not be anywhere near the top. But they are undoubtedly massively under achieving.
Yeah, they decided from day 1 that he’s a top class manager for some strange reason.
The easy ride he's getting from the media is absolutely absurd.
4 goals in 10 league games, 2 pens a corner routine and one actual open play goal, is absolutely mental. I cannot imagine the abuse Ole would be getting if we had anything similar to that.
Is it because he looks smart on the touchline? or the accent? I know he won the FA Cup and some really shite managers have won the FA Cup in the last few years. A completely washed up miles past his best LVG won the FA Cup for feck sake.
4 goals in 10 league games, 2 pens a corner routine and one actual open play goal, is absolutely mental. I cannot imagine the abuse Ole would be getting if we had anything similar to that.
Is it because he looks smart on the touchline? or the accent? I know he won the FA Cup and some really shite managers have won the FA Cup in the last few years. A completely washed up miles past his best LVG won the FA Cup for feck sake.
A case of office politics, Arteta should be long gone, yet still in the job as he is favourite of the directors, media, colleagues and friends...
As someone who has been massively pro-Ole and very critical of Frank Lampard I wanted to give my two cents on Arteta.
For me, Arsenal, the Arsenal fans and Arteta are now in a similar position to Utd after Jose left. Let’s look at the similarities -;
1. Legendary club manager leaves after 20+ years in charge, leaving behind fundamentally flawed squad but one which with a few tweaks could be competitive again.
2. Recruitment has been awful for a number of years. This problem was always likely to blow up at some point, whoever happened to be in charge, as club legends retire or move on and the players coming in to replace them are nowhere near the standard required.
3. The squad is very unbalanced with some positions having three or four options and some barely having one acceptable option.
4. Club appoint highly-regarded manager with proven pedigree (obviously in our case we went through two full time managers before Jose whereas Arsenal went straight to Emery). This manager, still operating under constraints of old structure, fails to address root cause of issues and whilst enjoying some success, many of the “improvements” are merely superficial and plenty of money is wasted on quick fixes or sticking plasters.
5. Eventually it predictably falls apart and the manager is sacked. Club recognise problem is more structural and not necessarily related to man in the dugout. Hire well liked ex player who understand the club and the ethos to come in and reestablish the “Arsenal/Man Utd” way as per the “Wenger/SAF” blueprint.
6. Manager gets off to great start as players immediately raise effort levels and fans get behind the team. Some fans get giddy and forget none of the structural problems have really been fixed and the players are fundamentally still the same players who have let them down previously.
7. Again, predictably, results tail off as players return to old habits.
8. New manager begins to show some signs of promise in the transfer market, bringing in one or two who look like proper players with the right attitude and who address priority positions in the XI. Despite this, one or two swallows don’t make a summer and the XI and the squad is still packed with a mixture of “not good enough” and “never will be good enough”
9. Fans begin to grow impatient. Spend hours debating tactics, motivation and many other supposed factors behind poor results - forgetting the fact that the most pertinent and blindingly obvious fact is that the players are nowhere near good enough!
For me, Arsenal are now at the point United where when we lost 0-2 at Old Trafford to Burnley in January. You feel as though it’s hopeless, you’ve backed the manager and things seem to be getting worse not better.
However, we all know what happened to Utd after that Burnley defeat. Bruno Fernandes arrived (with one or two others for the first team in the Summer) and all of a sudden, the team went from average/good to genuinely good.
Now, I actually think Utd in Jan. where further along than Arsenal in terms of the playing squad. We had one or two obvious weaknesses but overall we were a decent PL outfit.
Arsenal, let’s be frank, are a shambles. I have no love for Arsenal but I actually feel sorry for them now. It’s no fun just to keep kicking them when they are down because it’s a case of “their but for the grace of God go I”. They have been appallingly run for a number of years and its no wonder that Arsenal TV lot are shouting and screaming every game, we might laugh and mock them but when you feel powerless to help the club you grew up with as it slowly falls apart because of people who don’t give two hoots you’re bound to get emotional.
There is a positive ending to this post though and I would say to Arsenal fans, having been in a similar position the last few years - you are making every mistake we made - first step to turning it around is to stop sacking managers and believing everything will magically be OK. The problems run far, far deeper than who happens to be sitting in the dugout. I would say give Arteta four more windows. Two winter and two summer. Then start to judge him on the progress. There’s literally no point analysing anything until the starting XI doesn’t regularly contain the likes of the Willocks, Bellerin, Maitland-Niles, Holding, Xhaka, Elneny, Lacazette, Pepe, David Luiz etc...etc...
Not only are those players not good enough they also don’t have the right mentality to compete at the top level in a top side. Forget the “he should be doing better with what he has” - no, that doesn’t work at the top level. Every team wants to beat you. Even when Utd where sat 7th we had mid table teams turning up to OT like it was a cup final, scrapping tooth and nail to even take a draw. When you carry a big name and a big History, the players on the pitch have to be at it every game because you can bet the opposition will be - regardless of current league positions.
Arsenal need a step by step dismantling of this squad. A “cultural reset” if you will! That will be all the better and you will get there much faster if you stick with one person to oversee it and that person believes they will get the time to make PROPER changes and not just “quick fixes” to try and keep themselves in a job! We only started to turn the corner when Ole started making decisions for the club and not for himself, like our previous managers had had to do. Give Arteta a free pass until 6/7 of the XI at least are his players and you WILL improve - even if then it becomes obvious Arteta isn’t the man to win trophies you will have solid foundations to build on.
For me, Arsenal, the Arsenal fans and Arteta are now in a similar position to Utd after Jose left. Let’s look at the similarities -;
1. Legendary club manager leaves after 20+ years in charge, leaving behind fundamentally flawed squad but one which with a few tweaks could be competitive again.
2. Recruitment has been awful for a number of years. This problem was always likely to blow up at some point, whoever happened to be in charge, as club legends retire or move on and the players coming in to replace them are nowhere near the standard required.
3. The squad is very unbalanced with some positions having three or four options and some barely having one acceptable option.
4. Club appoint highly-regarded manager with proven pedigree (obviously in our case we went through two full time managers before Jose whereas Arsenal went straight to Emery). This manager, still operating under constraints of old structure, fails to address root cause of issues and whilst enjoying some success, many of the “improvements” are merely superficial and plenty of money is wasted on quick fixes or sticking plasters.
5. Eventually it predictably falls apart and the manager is sacked. Club recognise problem is more structural and not necessarily related to man in the dugout. Hire well liked ex player who understand the club and the ethos to come in and reestablish the “Arsenal/Man Utd” way as per the “Wenger/SAF” blueprint.
6. Manager gets off to great start as players immediately raise effort levels and fans get behind the team. Some fans get giddy and forget none of the structural problems have really been fixed and the players are fundamentally still the same players who have let them down previously.
7. Again, predictably, results tail off as players return to old habits.
8. New manager begins to show some signs of promise in the transfer market, bringing in one or two who look like proper players with the right attitude and who address priority positions in the XI. Despite this, one or two swallows don’t make a summer and the XI and the squad is still packed with a mixture of “not good enough” and “never will be good enough”
9. Fans begin to grow impatient. Spend hours debating tactics, motivation and many other supposed factors behind poor results - forgetting the fact that the most pertinent and blindingly obvious fact is that the players are nowhere near good enough!
For me, Arsenal are now at the point United where when we lost 0-2 at Old Trafford to Burnley in January. You feel as though it’s hopeless, you’ve backed the manager and things seem to be getting worse not better.
However, we all know what happened to Utd after that Burnley defeat. Bruno Fernandes arrived (with one or two others for the first team in the Summer) and all of a sudden, the team went from average/good to genuinely good.
Now, I actually think Utd in Jan. where further along than Arsenal in terms of the playing squad. We had one or two obvious weaknesses but overall we were a decent PL outfit.
Arsenal, let’s be frank, are a shambles. I have no love for Arsenal but I actually feel sorry for them now. It’s no fun just to keep kicking them when they are down because it’s a case of “their but for the grace of God go I”. They have been appallingly run for a number of years and its no wonder that Arsenal TV lot are shouting and screaming every game, we might laugh and mock them but when you feel powerless to help the club you grew up with as it slowly falls apart because of people who don’t give two hoots you’re bound to get emotional.
There is a positive ending to this post though and I would say to Arsenal fans, having been in a similar position the last few years - you are making every mistake we made - first step to turning it around is to stop sacking managers and believing everything will magically be OK. The problems run far, far deeper than who happens to be sitting in the dugout. I would say give Arteta four more windows. Two winter and two summer. Then start to judge him on the progress. There’s literally no point analysing anything until the starting XI doesn’t regularly contain the likes of the Willocks, Bellerin, Maitland-Niles, Holding, Xhaka, Elneny, Lacazette, Pepe, David Luiz etc...etc...
Not only are those players not good enough they also don’t have the right mentality to compete at the top level in a top side. Forget the “he should be doing better with what he has” - no, that doesn’t work at the top level. Every team wants to beat you. Even when Utd where sat 7th we had mid table teams turning up to OT like it was a cup final, scrapping tooth and nail to even take a draw. When you carry a big name and a big History, the players on the pitch have to be at it every game because you can bet the opposition will be - regardless of current league positions.
Arsenal need a step by step dismantling of this squad. A “cultural reset” if you will! That will be all the better and you will get there much faster if you stick with one person to oversee it and that person believes they will get the time to make PROPER changes and not just “quick fixes” to try and keep themselves in a job! We only started to turn the corner when Ole started making decisions for the club and not for himself, like our previous managers had had to do. Give Arteta a free pass until 6/7 of the XI at least are his players and you WILL improve - even if then it becomes obvious Arteta isn’t the man to win trophies you will have solid foundations to build on.
Hadn't Houllier actually managed before Liverpool. Arteta sat next to Pep. Not exactly the same.
"PE teacher, no tactics, just vibe".
Yes, I think Allegri's pragmatism is what is required. He'd tighten them up immediately and stop them losing games initially which is the big issue. Start accumulating points even if it is a series of draws to start off with to put some distance between them and those relegation spots. Then can build from there.
Yeah Houiller was a sophisticated manager. He managed or was involved with PSG and France before coming to Liverpool.
He was certainly not perfect, but he did have ideas, principles and all of that.
Poch wont take it if offered. He has one platform which he built his reputation on -- Spurs the past few years. Why risk that on a long term project like Arsenal and one that has quite political upper management?
Can they afford Allegeri? They will need a Pulis type manager if they don't sack Arteta in January but instead delay it till March, after an expected disastrous Feb.
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Keane there, looking right through that BS.
But isn't that what happened with Arteta? They bought into his ideas, worked on their defensive shape, finished the season strongly and won a cup. Arteta was found wanting when they started from scratch this season, with the players he has he is massively underachieving.
I don't think Allegri would make the same mistake but bottom line is Arsenal need to clear out the deadwood first and buy players to fit the manager's system.
'They know why they've lost'
DO THEY NOW?
Didn't you see all of the progress they made from those first 3 defeats? Just imagine what a run of 7 defeats in 10 will do.
Arsenal have to be dark horses for the title now.
Keane is a really underrated pundit. He may not be very tactical or use modern football terminology but he knows what it takes to be a key part of a champion team. He smelled that bullshit a mile off.
At the end of the day, it's football and it's not as complicated as people like to pretend it is.
But the thing is, is arteta the right man to be trusted woth more funds? His decision making has been shambolic. Giving Luiz a contract, buying willian, convincing xhaka to stay, freezing of Ozil, buying mari, cedric, persisting with bellerin, not giving youths a chance etc. Etc.
Ole may not be tactically the greatest but one thing he did do was being ruthless. He came and let fellaini go, he let lukaku, smalling, sanchez young all go. He didn't persist with lingard , periera once Bruno came in. People may call Ole names but one thing he does is make sure to get best out of players. He doesn't complicate things to weaken the top player like arteta is doing with auba. I bet if Ole was their manager he would have made sure everything goes through Auba and he is utilized to maximum level. Sometimes depending on individual brilliance is not a bad thing.
Arteta has made some bizarre decisions that it is difficult for anyone to convincingly back him.
100%. Even on here, the way people talk about it, you'd think football was an exact science.
Cahill there showing why it's stupid to have a mate of a manager covering their games. Utter bollocks.
Made a right plonker of himself there, didn’t he? ”They’ve got a formula” FFS.
BTW, has there been a reason why they chose Leno over Martinez?
It’s a fair point but we have to take into account the fact that Arteta needs to address several positions as quickly as possible with limited funds.
OK, David Luiz might not be the greatest CB in the world, but he is probably still the best or the second best CB at Arsenal right now. Would letting him go this season have improved results? I doubt it.
Willian, again, not a player I would necessarily have bought but was an easy option on a free transfer with the clubs links with his agent. Worst case, he doesn’t perform and they move him on when a better option appears.
Likewise, Ozil. I remember posters arguing that Ole should have given Sanchez more chances but at the end of the day, talented or otherwise, both players had multiple chances and both failed to prove their worth. If they’re upsetting the dressing room and generally not contributing on the pitch they are better off out.
I think in summary, my point is Arteta has inherited an absolute mess. Sure, not every decision he has made has looked a great one with the benefit of hindsight - but that’s the thing about hindsight, it’s much easier to sound clever when you analyse decisions knowing what DID happen rather than making them in the heat of a moment and knowing that there are any number of possible outcomes, opportunity costs and alternative paths open.
This is it. His looks and name are shielding him from more criticism.
Because Leno is still better than Martinez?
In what sense?
Their defence looked much better with Martinez in goal towards the end of the season.
Is Leno better at playing out the back, or saving shots? Or control of the box?
But when you are a manager of such a big club, you cannot have so many decisions backfire. Alao, none of these decisions were smart. Xhaka literally walked out by throwing his cpatain band just last year and yet Arteta convinced him to stay.
Regarding Ozil thing, well I won't pretend that he would have solved all the problem but when you don't have any creative player in your side and then you rnd up freezing your only creator, it looks foolish. Also, if arteta was not planning to register Ozil, wouldn't it have been better to spend 45 odd million on auour than partey. Seems odd.
Yes arsenal squad is a mess but let us not kid ourselves by saying they are 15th best squad. They should be better than what they are doing. The likes of auba, tierney, willian, lacazatte, partey, leno, saka, martinelli, amn, gabriel all are good enough.
I'm not getting into this again - I never denied Emery initially improved Xhaka - I'm saying that when Emery left Xakha was left worse than he ever was. And when Arteta came there was bounce in his form again, so it looked upon season's end that Arteta might be building something broader with the squad. Obviously as we fast forward to today, it looks like that's not the case. I don't really care whether you thought otherwise - this is a forum for opinion and not a dick comparing competition.
Guendouzi is a cnut and that's why no club wants him. Let alone Arteta, I'd have expected Pep, Klopp, Ole or Allegri to feck him off too. Emery is a pushover manager, so he's by no means a barometer on how to grip a dressing room.
Arteta is failing for many reasons but man management isn't the sole contributing factor. There are elements with Arsenal that go beyond Arteta, for example I don't believe the decision to refuse Ozil a squad number was his call, I think Ozil nailed his Arsenal career in the coffin when he made a political stance against China, which happens to be a huge source of Arsena's merchandise. Similarly there are other farcical decisions that don't make sense, and its tough to tell who is responsible for it.
What we can hold Arteta to account for is the pattern of play (or lack-of) that we see on the pitch, and the defeatist formations against non top-6 sides, with 2 holding midfielders against Burnley for example. When I said it looks like Arteta might be building the foundations and working up, the expectation was that this season he'd actually "work-up" and start creating his attacking patterns and drilling the team offensively. He's not done that at all, of course.
They won the FA Cup because they beat City and then they beat Chelsea. Don't try and discredit the achievement because Ole rotated some players - their cup was thoroughly deserved and the squad + manager deserved credit at the time. I get they didn't do it in a dominative way + they got some luck (but who doesn't in a cup win). Also his side beat Ole last season, so it's presumptuous to say they won just because Ole rotated some players.
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They fluked that FA Cup win big time. Playing park the bus and then lucking out on counters. The match vs Chelsea was proper luckfest. Pulisic had the chance to score but he pulled a hammy when through on goal
He's not at all, he might be more likely to pull out a WC save (but then even that's debatable) but everything else about Martinez is better. Leno's also far more likely to have an absolute mare as well
A lot of FA cup wins take luck on the way - he obviously wasn't going to go toe to toe vs Chelsea and City. Don't get how them deploying park the bus and counter waters down credit - at least they beat big clubs back to back en-route.They fluked that FA Cup win big time. Playing park the bus and then lucking out on counters. The match vs Chelsea was proper luckfest. Pulisic had the chance to score but he pulled a hammy when through on goal
What did we do in our FA Cup win? Beat Derby, Sheffield, Shrewsbury, Everton and then Palace - doesn't stop people wanking over it when comparing what Van Gaal won vs Ole. An FA Cup win is a win, and it's an achievement.
I thought Leno was meant to be superior with the ball at his feet too, but I'm not sure I can see much of that this season.
Tbh, Everton is well drilled. When they deploy low block, not many teams can unlock them. You have to try many many different ways to attack, as Bruno did for us. For example, the short lob swung to the net which Rashford’s hair might touch.
Their whole attacking construction has almost no alternatives, and is static. Cebalos put a lot of effort but he is simply not creative and can only move the ball to left or right while teammates stand around the box. Everton just played the game as if calmly watching Arsenal jogging around with the ball aimlessly.
Gundozi would inject a lot more to their attack play and potentially connect well with William as I think, but he is in Berlin.
William put a lot of efforts, but everyone just stood still and watched him. He has no teammates make move to have an option to start any penetrating passs.
Their whole attacking construction has almost no alternatives, and is static. Cebalos put a lot of effort but he is simply not creative and can only move the ball to left or right while teammates stand around the box. Everton just played the game as if calmly watching Arsenal jogging around with the ball aimlessly.
Gundozi would inject a lot more to their attack play and potentially connect well with William as I think, but he is in Berlin.
William put a lot of efforts, but everyone just stood still and watched him. He has no teammates make move to have an option to start any penetrating passs.
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Most of the greatest teams in history depended on individual brilliance to win.
He is another Andre Villas-Boas. Like AVB, who was understudy to Mourinho, Arteta with Pep.
A well-spoken, well-connected,smart-looking manager. Yet, where is the quality?
Celebrating moral victory, not forgetting the losses
A well-spoken, well-connected,smart-looking manager. Yet, where is the quality?
Celebrating moral victory, not forgetting the losses
AVB won a lot with Porto at least.
Honestly Arsenal look lost to me, and they did in that game as well. They were just pointlessly passing the ball around and if Pogba hadn't have had a brainfart I think we could easily have ended up winning despite being utter shite. They even tried to kick the ball into their goal for us at one point.
I don't know what Arteta is trying to do and I don't know if he's a good manager. I think it was a bad job to take at a bad time. I know we talk about our issues but Arsenal are expecting a manager to get top 4 with a squad that can't compete for top 4 and a budget that doesn't let you do anything about it...and then even if you manage to get top 4 that's the same level of ambition all the fans demanded Wenger be sacked for anyway. I just think the whole thing is a mess. The players are probably demotivated because they know they have next to no chance of delivering what's expected...and also because some of them are Mezut Ozil.
At least he won trophies with that average team. Something Ole is struggling to do so far with the third most expensive squad in the world.Has anyone did this yet?
Arteta had some good idea earlier on, but I feel like some of their players are downing tool because of the mental fragility of the Arsenal player. If he doesn't find player he can trust and turn things around then he may be looking at a sack soon.
I don't recall saying there was anything elite about Arteta's coaching, just that he had a clear idea of how he wanted to play. I'll gladly concede that it was likely a honeymoon period of football but I'd also argue that Arteta has been badly let down by his players on several occasions now.
Anyway, it's not like I mind watching Arsenal capitulate once again and me being proved wrong