I see what you mean, but I think the people questioning Klopp's volume of success are crazy. And generally, it's usually jealous fans. It doesn't tend to be City fans who look down on Klopp's tenure (if anything, it serves to validate Pep's success). It's the fans of other clubs who, I think deep down, wish Klopp had managed their club instead.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
I’m not sure what the money here has to do with anything as already pointed out. United won a trophy too but have also has several different managers in that time, as have Chelsea, and both ownership and structural changes.
Arsenal and Arteta should be doing better than both clubs and they are.
Yes, I think he's a good manager but for me he needs to do something of note in the UCL to be talked as one of the best managers in Europe. With Klopp back on his Dortmund days I considered him one of the best managers no just because how he was dominating the Bundesliga but also because of his brand of football and having very successful campaigns in UCL with such team.
You mention the management and ownership changes at Chelsea and United as relevant context (and I agree). Surely spending €60m and the thick edge of €750+ more than Arsenal is also relevant context?
Arteta is competing with rivals that have spent more (and in the case of Chelsea, vastly more) than the to catch up with Liverpool and City. You say that Arsenal and Arteta “should be doing better than those clubs”, but I’m not sure why that such a given, particularly as this is his first management job.
He’s made a few mistakes, but on the whole he’s done a pretty decent job.
So basically Wenger's final years. I remember when he was mocked for only ever going for the top 4 trophy. As usual, he was a visionary.
Why? Well he’s been at the club longer than either of the current managers at United/Chelsea and has had multiple windows to shape his squad.
Using money spent as some kind of evidence seems a bit simple. He’s spent 60m less than United in that period however United have had three managers, no real recruitment strategy and have accumulated a mix of players unsuited to any one philosophy. They’ve also won a trophy and quality for the CL though…
Arteta has spent €688,240,000 so its not like he has been operating on a shoe string budget
At this point to me what Arsenal needs is stability, consistent performance in the field, and consistent finish in top 4 for now. Then build from there. What Klopp has achieved for Liverpool in such a short period of time is remarkable. The Arsenal board and the fans are happy with Arteta as head coach for the time being.
Last edited:
Nobody is saying he has.
United and Chelsea have spent more money and have changed managers because they didn't do what they should have with that money which was spent. At some point you need to get return on that investment. Yes, Arteta won that FA cup but he can't ride on that early trophy win forever, he needs to start performing quite soon before as he runs the risk of being a nearly man. At the same point of their tenures, Klopp was already a CL finalist and then won the CL and PL. Arteta has gone out with a whimper this season in the FA and League cup early on. If he doesn't go fairly deep in the CL and mount a serious challenge this season, it should make people at Arsenal question if he has what it takes to get over the line.
I think you're well within your rights to be happy with where Arsenal are at. There are limits to how long top four finishes and challenging alone are enough however.
I suspect that in a year or two if Arsenal are still the bridesmaid's, questions will be asked.
Reading these comments and reflecting on just how far we have come under this very good manager. Apparently we're a joke if we don't win the Champions League or the Barclays now. A few years ago we were just a joke. I'm happy.
Aye, outperforming United and Chelsea shouldn't be seen as something to be lauded given how it's widely accepted how poorly both clubs have been run. Given their reputations, it should be a given that any decent manager worth his salt would be overperforming those two clubs.
The thing is, nothing is a given in football? It was only a couple years ago we were classed as poorly run remember, who had hired an out of depth rookie manager in his first managerial job.
If City keep cleaning up with Arsenal finishing a close second, then not many questions will be asked. But if other clubs are winning something of note while Arsenal don't, that's a problem for sure.
Yep, that’s where I’m at.
I think it's less testament to his tactical acumen and more about how he made Pep feel the need to go against his philosophy. How often does Pep give up possession against any opposition?
This is my take. We are living in the age of City. You really can’t fault Arteta if he doesn’t win the league unless City has a bad year. Klopp was the only one who took advantage of that for one year and won.
Actually no, I dont think Arteta needs to deliver anything other than consistent top 4 qualification, CL participation and increasing the reach of the club around the world in doing so. At least from an internal metrics perspective.
What the fans want and what the club deem important are two different things.
This is why you would have never fired Klopp even if you won nothing substantial again. Klopp made Liverpool relevant again after many years of mediocrity, and that return to consistency at the top level is what has bought him the trust that he has had over the years.
Here is the key bit, I'd say though...
Arteta has the ability to keep Arsenal competing at the top and Arsenal hold him to that. But Arsenal also see the potential of Arteta to win the big prizes too, and that further strengthens their case of holding onto him and giving him time and space to deliver. The club know that they have struck gold with Arteta and are ready to give him the support he needs, within the club's means of course, to realise that potential.
There is a sizeable Arsenal supporter contingent that wants Arteta out. I personally don't get it, but I know football fans are a fickle lot. He is not at the Klopp or Pep level yet but I think he can legitimately get there one day. He is growing tactically. There are very few games we are getting outplayed and as good as Wenger was, we were looking pretty bad versus the top teams in much of the last decade of his time.
I feel he second guesses himself a fair bit still, but there is no other manager out there other than those two I would trade him with. Along with the squad, there is room to grow and I am hopeful we will under him. I am not so sure he is staying all that long for some reason though.
I feel he second guesses himself a fair bit still, but there is no other manager out there other than those two I would trade him with. Along with the squad, there is room to grow and I am hopeful we will under him. I am not so sure he is staying all that long for some reason though.
There crazy. Arsenal are doing the best they have done (consistently) for almost 2 decades.
They're back to at least 2007-2010 Arsenal. Arsenal haven't really managed to be in a title race for a number of years before Arteta.
Unless you're bringing in a dead cert like Klopp or Ancelotti I don't see the need to sack him.
I think Arteta will get till 2025 atleast.
Its not just that simple though, Elite managers are quite rare currently. Pep and then Klopp but not much after that. When you would be replacing Klopp next year offcourse you need a manager who is great but how likely is it that you would get a manager better than Arteta? You have been through this cycle before Klopp yourself.
And many say that Arsenal have been settled for a while but most clubs are in turmoil because the go through the manager merry go round. Arsenal accepted this will be a long project and stick to it. Slow and steady growth was requirement and expectation now then people cannot complain that progress is slow.
Thats just not true
There is no clear better option for us. He has brought us back to at least where we should be. I am not sure we will make that junction but then again I am not sure any team can unless City get punished.
I think it would be an absurd decision to part with him. Even if they don't win the league this season but are in and around the top two that's an inexperienced manager in his first managerial role successfully challenging twice in a competitive environment and in the previous season played the best football by a country mile which fell apart at the last hurdle.
If Arteta keeps his trajectory up he's nailed on to reputably be amongst the very best in Europe. He's demonstrating a very high ceiling given he's a 41 year old rookie.
There is not a sizeable contingent that wants him out, that's absolute nonsense. I don't know a single Arsenal fan that does. I was more sceptical than most, between the horror run in winter 2020 to the supine draw with Villarreal that saw us out of the Europa League in 2021. Since then it's been basically an upward trajectory to becoming one of the best teams in Europe. He needs to win something big for it to be widely accepted, but he's really really good at his job.
Is this true? I know Arsenal fans tend to be very disillusioned but surely they are aware they were kind of in a title race last season and look to actually be in one this season?
I still don’t rate him. He’s capable of getting his team playing to a high level if they have 1 game a week. He’s unable to manage a squad or keep them going 2-3 games a week consistently. They came through a sticky period from 4-6 weeks ago because of that issue.
The reason they’ve done well since the turn of the year is because they’re out of the FA and League cup quite early on. There’s no CL until this week after a break from early December. I predict they’ll have another sticky period once they’re stuck into PL and CL week in week out.
The reason they’ve done well since the turn of the year is because they’re out of the FA and League cup quite early on. There’s no CL until this week after a break from early December. I predict they’ll have another sticky period once they’re stuck into PL and CL week in week out.
Steady on. You got knocked out of the EL in the last 16 and you're only in the last 16 of the CL. He needs to get to at least the semis of the CL for that to be the case.
Unfortunately, it is very true. Go to our main forums for starters. My guess is there are a few of us here because we're tired of seeing it.
I think there probably is some truth to this. It's also likely a factor in United picking up form as well. Since the Bayern game we are DLWLWDWWWW in all comps, with Forest (A) and WHU (A) being the losses.
I am intrigued to see how they do, I still think they will come up short. They're actually on track to finish with less points than last season for all the positive press - that period in Dec was a big hit to them going from challengers to winning in my opinion.
Sick of people keep bringing up how ETH transfers have failed in Anthony, Mount, Onana, etc yet Arteta gets a pass for splunking 60+ mil on that flop Havertz. Not even factoring how much Havertz earns (think he is the highest paid player in that team or something).
Well we'll easily beat Porto and then let's see who we get in the quarters. I'm not sure who I'd fancy to beat us? We've taken 7 points from 9 against City and Liverpool so far this season. Real Madrid? Maybe. Who else? It's a coin toss if we get any of those (not including Liverpool, who aren't even in it) but if not then I'm expecting semis at least.
Re being helped by being out of the domestic cups, OK I guess? I don't think it'll lead to an asterisk at the end of the season if we do win something. We've won plenty of FA Cups in the last few years and, take it from me, this is a substantially better team than any of those.
Being firmly in the title race will do that for ya. It's a lot easier to criticize a flop signing when a team is struggling but when a team is performing as well as Arsenal have, it's very natural for bad transfers to get mentioned less.
You've won one FA cup under Arteta and suddenly you're one of the best teams in Europe. Ok. The arrogance is funny considering.
I imagine you thought you'd easily beat Sporting last year too.
Spot on. Poor transfers look worse when you absolutely needed to improve. I don't see Havertz as an upgrade to Xhaka at all, but the team is still performing well, so it is less visible.
I am still in support of playing Kai. We dont have a whole lot of other options at the moment. ESR is constantly out, Jorginho can be utilized to some effect. Probably the latter is the better choice at the moment against stronger opposition but it is not a week in week out thing. Considering the difference in cost that is a further indictment on Havertz at the moment. Don't even know where Partey is at anymore but he is obviously not part of the solution either.
I can't believe he is turning not Lego. It can't be.
Suddenly? That was four years ago. We won one FA Cup, were absolutely crap for about a year, and since then have invested lots of money (mostly very well) into a squad with a clear plan under an excellent manager. Now we're really good.
It's not sudden at all.