I've been pretty critical of havertz on here so I'm definitely not going to rush to defend his honor. But, in fairness to him, he's been quite good in the second half of the season. And it's clear too that the team has started to trust and understand his game more. I think he'll turn out to be a fine signing.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
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Havertz is doing alright. He is an expensive transfer on high salary but I would not say he is a flop. He features in the team regularly.
My point is you're not one of the best teams in Europe. You need to win trophies to be considered that and make it deep into European competitions. You've done neither.
I'm unsure if you're trolling or just a really arrogant Arsenal fan.
Arsenal is not one of the best team in Europe. Arsenal is not even relevant in Europe, after just qualified to participate in CL this season. Real Madrid, City and Liverpool are.
I agree. Mount and Onana aren't flops either. People are just very delusional in this thread (among many others).
And you are definitely one of the best teams in Europe, I don't see how a serious title challenger of the strongest European league aren't among the best teams on the continent.
Only City can be considered objectively stronger than Arsenal right now.
To use the word "flop" I would only say Kalvin Phillips was a flop for City as he couldn't even get into the team.
Ah yes, you've progressed from Wenger's top 4 trophy in his final years, to Arteta's we're really good trophy.
I dont mean this as a dig, because it will only appear so since you are rivals, but you're pretty much just Spurs.
I'm not sure the time lines add up? The argument is that we're only played well since the turn of the year since we are out both cups, when we actually have played in the cup in that period? Our sticky patch was round about Xmas when there was no cups and no Europe, and we were top or near the top of the league earlier in the season when we had European midweek games, so not sure how this perception holds much sway?
Why do you consider Liverpool better than Arsenal?
Because they've won the CL recently and make CL finals? Whereas Arsenal got knocked out of the last 16 of the EL.
The best teams compete on all fronts, which Liverpool have shown to do in the previous 5ish years. Arsenal haven't at all. This year they might compete on two but it's still far too early to say they will.
The question is "one of the best team in Europe". Liverpool has been playing in Europe consistently and got great results. Arsenal just got back in CL since 2016-17. I won't even say Arsenal is better than Liverpool in EPL anyway.
True actually, post PSV you had a bit of a nightmare. Either way that Dec period might come back to haunt you.
Yeah, probably. I don't disagree by the way when the Champions League comes back it will add another test, i just disagreed with the assessment that the form was good because we were out the cups etc.
I think we'll drop more points than City and Liverpool probably because we have some difficult fixtures, especially in the run in. Still have to go to City, Spurs, Utd, Brighton & Wolves, so you can certainly see some points dropped then. Unfortunately, especially with this City teams, you know dropped points in the 2nd half of the season tends to get punished.
Liverpool won the Champions League FIVE years ago and last made the final 2 years ago...I'm not arguing that they were on another level compared to Arsenal back then, as Arteta's rebuild was in its early phase, whilst Klopp's team was in peak form, reaping the rewards of the rebuild he did between 2015 and 2018.
However, Arsenal have been one of the best teams in Europe since the start of last season. I don't know how you can object to that. And right now, I don't see how you can consider them worse than 5th at the absolute lowest.
I don't know how to respond to this type of logic.
Arsenal in 2017 had a different manager, and a different squad. Is there any player left from 2017 other than Elneny? Edu wasn't there either back then, and the Kroenkes have also seemed to have changed their general approach to their leadership back then.
What's your point?
Neither of you seem to mention that Arsenal took 4 points off of Liverpool both this and last season, and are better than them in most statistics, both last season and this season.
Why? To be one of the best teams in Europe you have to be one of the best teams in Europe. I'm not remotely bothered by your own criteria that says what you have to do "to be considered that". Copenhagen, Man City, RB Leipzig, Real Madrid, PSG, Sociedad, Lazio, Bayern, PSV, Dortmund, Inter, Atletico, Porto, Napoli and Barcelona are the other teams left in the Champions League - how many of them are better than Arsenal are currently? "One of the best teams in Europe" is not much of a reach, to be honest, I'm not saying we'll win the thing.
Arsenal didn't even finish in the top 4 for Wenger's final two seasons. We were embarrassing. Still won more than Spurs.
This is precisely why I’m here.
I would rather put it as Arsenal has a decent chance of winning against any team in Europe currently in a knockout.
If we win the CL or atleast reach the final we can be among the conversation for best teams in Europe but currently its just potential.
Liverpool have been consistent in Europe at the elite level, and in the league. Challenging for the title or the CL for c. 5 years.
Arsenal have only just started to title challenge and have been shite in Europe or not even been in it in the past 5 years while not winning any trophies since that 19/20 seasom. It's not even guaranteed that they do well in this years CL. They're a strong contender to go far, yes, but to say they're one of the top teams in Europe at the moment is just nonsense, they have nothing to show for it.
You haven't shown you are yet and you are ignoring that fact.
None of this makes any sense
Liverpool haven't really been consistently elite ever since their title win in 2020, but have reached incredibly high peaks in the 2021/22 season without a doubt
Arsenal have been on a really good level since the start of last season. If they don't fall off in the remaining part of the season, that will have been 2 seasons where they amassed 80+ points in the Premier League. That alone cements them as one of the best teams in Europe.
They've taken 4 points off of Liverpool both this season and last season.
They are 4th favorites for the CL (6.50) at the bookies, and have similar odds to Madrid (6.00) and Bayern (5.25).
I get your point. You are reluctant to call them one of the best teams in Europe, because they haven't won the Premier League or Champions League, and this is also their first season back in the CL after 2017, so they haven't had a chance to go far in the competition or to knock out another European heavyweight...but their performances and all the statistics since the start of last season back up my claims...and the whole point of my argument was that RIGHT NOW they are one of the best teams in Europe. We are in February 2024.
It's not just about CL. When they've been in the EL their performances haven't been inspiring either. They got knocked out last year in the EL in the last 16. That's really really poor.
I'm sorry but just because you get 80+ points in the PL it doesn't mean you're one of the best teams in Europe.
It's not just about CL. When they've been in the EL their performances haven't been inspiring either. They got knocked out last year in the EL in the last 16. That's really really poor.
I'm sorry but just because you get 80+ points in the PL it doesn't mean you're one of the best teams in Europe.
Think he made the mistake of rotating in the games vs Sporting. In the first leg he didn’t play Ramsdale, Gabriel, Partey, Odegaard, Trossard or Jesus, and in the home game he didnt start White, Partey, Odegaard, Saka and Trossard.
Should have had enough to win the games, and I get your point about having to actually prove it in Europe, but I don’t think he rotates like that in the Champions League.
Which is fine but I don't think you can be classed as one of the best in Europe when you're only doing well in one competition. This campaign in Europe will give us a better indication of where Arsenal are at.
What sides in Europe would you back to beat Arsenal right now in a two-legged tie if you were making a wager?
Which league is the strongest? If you agree that it’s the PL (and it is by pretty much any metric) than the 2nd best team with 80+ points would have to be one of the best in Europe.I'm sorry but just because you get 80+ points in the PL it doesn't mean you're one of the best teams in Europe.
You can’t be within touching distance of the Treble winners from the strongest league in Europe and simultaneously not be one of the strongest teams in Europe, no matter how many laughing emojis you use.
Ever.
The cheek to insist that Arsenal are suddenly a European heavyweight because you made it to RO16 this year and are playing well domestically for about a season and half!
Do you think you'll retain your within-touching-distance-of-the-Treble-winners trophy this season? Liverpool may run you close.
Odds on him replacing Guardiola in a season or 2?
What does "Ever." have to do with it?
Also, "you"
I support United, I'm just tired of the delusion in this thread
"Touching distance".... only because city had a dip in form. You finished 3 points more than Mourinho's 2nd season, with a squad that is probably the best you've ever had in two decades.
You would have backed Manchester City to beat Monaco, Liverpool, Spurs, and Lyon in the early stages of the CL knockout rounds, but they lost to all of them.
Sure, lots of things can happen in knockout football. If the favorite always won it would be pretty boring.
It's not randomness. European and domestic competition aren't the same and performance doesn't track 1:1. Some clubs overperform domestically relative to continental performance, and some do the reverse. Historically, Arsenal are a European underperformer. Maybe Arteta's already changed that and we don't know, but it'd be wise to wait and see.
Not even a dip in form. They won the league comfortably with a long winning streak and then fecked off the last two or three matches to focus on the treble. Touching distance indeed.
I'm glad that everyone hates us now. It used to be just sad when people actually pity us.
And yes, until Arteta actually win something of significance, i don't think you can call him an elite manager. Last year we bottled it up massively, it's actually embarrasing to collapse like that in the final third of the season.
And Arsenal have been perenial underachiever in Europe. Definitely not one of the best in Europe, not even close.
So i don't get bragging about us right now. We're basically just Spurs with an FA Cup until we won the PL or CL.
And yes, until Arteta actually win something of significance, i don't think you can call him an elite manager. Last year we bottled it up massively, it's actually embarrasing to collapse like that in the final third of the season.
And Arsenal have been perenial underachiever in Europe. Definitely not one of the best in Europe, not even close.
So i don't get bragging about us right now. We're basically just Spurs with an FA Cup until we won the PL or CL.
European and domestic competitions certainly aren't the same and many sides have struggled in Europe after impressive domestic campaigns (Arsenal historically being one of them). But there is a ton of randomness in football in general and especially in a tie played over 180 minutes. City lost those ties but in any of those seasons the claim "X side (which beat City in the CL) is a better team than City" would have been a terrible claim.
You just argued your own post against yourself when someone pointed out why it is silly. It doesn't matter about what ifs, that's not what makes you a top European side. You haven't done it yet.
No, it doesn't have to be as teams can have a below par season in the league and an above par season in Europe. The best teams in Europe are the ones which are challenging for titles and going deep in the CL or winning trophies in the league or Europe even if they have a dip in the other i.e City, Liverpool, Bayern, PSG, Madrid etc. Arsenal aside from the FA cup in 19/20 and a title challenge last season (which ended with a whimper) most certainly have not been a side who have done that.
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While I agree all this Europian talk is premature but winning CL is no criteria for that.
City won their first last season so City are one of the Strongest team in Europe only from this season. Thats nonsense.
Nobody is saying Arsenal is some kind of European heavyweight and everybody that knows anything about football realizes that teams often stumble in Europe. But if there are a fairly limited number of sides (maybe 4-6?) that you would bet on beating them in a tie if you had to place a huge wager on one or the other, then its hard to say they're not one of the best sides in Europe currently.