Fair point, I hope I’m not coming across as holier than thou! I’m equally guilty when it comes to Town
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
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Fair point, I hope I’m not coming across as holier than thou! I’m equally guilty when it comes to Town
100% true.... This guy sounds like th Man UTD version of Ty who most often makes ridiculous comparisons/observations
This pretty much sums up my view, so thanks - you save me writing it.
The only thing I’d add is that I’m impressed with how Arteta has united the team with each other and the fans. I was at the North London Derby and it was hands down the best atmosphere I’ve ever experienced at the Emirates.
Today, Ramsdale was hugging his replacement Leno at full-time. Leno, Xhaka and Lacazette are all likely leaving at the end of the season. Yet all three are fully committed to the cause. These are all issues that even experienced Managers can struggle with, so I find it promising to see how he is coping two years in.
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Firstly, it was only heralded by some as a number of us saw it for what it was but if we take that 2nd place season as a yard stick OgS was sacked 6 months later.
For as good as Arteta has done this season I see a potential parallel. OgS went backwards & was rightly sacked but Arteta could perform similarly to how he has this season & all it would take is for the Top3 to stagnate & one of Spurs/United to turn a few draws into wins & he’s then battling it out for 4th place.
People suddenly raving about Arteta has so many similarities to the OgS narrative that was pushed before it all went up in smoke. Posters talking about how his moves have set them up for the future & how sacking off a few players has transformed the squad. These are all intangible things OgS was heralded for. Arsenal will finish 4th this season, potentially going out in the round of 16/Qtr Finals in next years UCL but it’s all for nothing if they don’t make a sizeable improvement again in the league.
The underperformance last season is inflating their performance this year IMO, on the face of it they’re at worst the 6th best positioned team in the league & came off the back of spending the most money in the Summer. Finishing 4th & above this United side isn’t something I’d be lauding but some ‘success’ after last season must be nice.
Absolutely. If Arteta can NOT spend any money to replace everyone he let go for free and sent out on loan in his squad, and only play with 16 year old kids from the academy, then I am convinced. His major failure is not making money from the players he saw not fit for Arsenal and make the board spent money to replace them. He should hold on to them until their contract expire to protect the value of the asset. He made the club lose big money on Auba, Ozil, Guendouzi, Torreira, Kolasinac, Chambers, Bellerin, Mari, Mavropanos, Mustafi, Papastathopoulos. If he can make these players work for Arsenal, then I am convinced. It would be much more economical just to fire both Edu and Arteta and hire the "next big thing" manager like ETH to work with these players.
Of course they could stagnate (especially if they don't invest in their squad) or one of their competitors could improve.
If you were one of those who saw the second place finish "for what it was" you would have seen the enormous cracks that your last minute winners were papering over week by week.
That simply isn't the case with Arsenal.
If you handed Arteta signings like Ole was last summer ( Arteta spent the most but Ole wasn't far behind) the foundations are there to build on, that simply wasn't the case at United and Ole was exposed because of it.
I think the goalpost shifting in this thread is the best compliment you can pay Arteta. At the start of the season there wasn’t a single major pundit that predicted Arsenal would finish in the top four.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/football/58141017.amp
Literally none. Hell, even Martin Keown had no faith in us.
That view was reflected all over this thread. Obviously we still might not make it. But the fact that the prospect of us qualifying for the CL has gone from a laughable pipe-dream to an apparent non-achievement is actually praise in itself.
Mate get a grip there is no need to get this defensive and snarky your need to get approval and acknowledgement from your rival fans for your perceived progress that too on that rival's fan forum is quite baffling to be honest .
If you feel Arteta has you on the right track and your improvement is sustainable that should be enough and you should be happy about it .
No one predicted Leicester to win the league when they did either, I’m not sure what relevance predictions have. You’ll finish 4th as the 4th best team over the course of a 38 game season with perhaps the 5th/6th best set of players to chose from. Out performing a prediction based on 0 games played isn’t praise, people over/under active those metrics every year.
As for ‘the next big thing’ jab Arsenal went for Pep light & have back him reasonably. It’s hardly some organic growth.
It’s all conjecture at this point but I’ve seen the ‘improved league position’ rhetoric before. It’s all intangible praise, ‘If you handed Arteta the signings like Ole last year’, OgS was a terrible manager so it’d be hard to not outperform him.
Speaking of week by week, European football will cause issues they haven’t had this year. As Chelsea & Leicester have shown in their league wins of late, no European football can help league campaigns.
Arsenal fans should celebrate this season as nothing is given next year.
Makes Ole look non league unfortunately.
I am being agreeable with the "rival" fan. Rival for the great 4th place trophy. I am not defending Arteta at all. I am one of those will forever move the goal post and can't be convinced until he does this or that. Next season if he spend a dime in summer and not winning the league I am not convinced.
I’m not suggesting that it is. I’m saying that the switch in consensus opinion is akin to praise. Our finishing in the top four has gone from being disregarded as possibility to being disregarded as any sort of achievement if happens. I think that’s a good indicator of the progress the team is making.
Isn't it still too early to say that? Maybe Arteta is genuinely starting to do a good job unlike Ole who was getting results that papered over all the cracks that he was incapable of fixing, but it would need prolonged /sustainable improvement to arrive at that conclusion. I haven't been watching Arsenal this year and if Arteta is actually taking the team in the direction needed then that's really good for Arsenal fans but I'm wary of praise handed to managers for achieving a 4th place finish given Ole did it twice and never did I really think he was ever good enough. Because he wasn't improving the collective anywhere near enough and didn't have the vision /football ideas needed to reach the top.
The modern approach to football in many ways still is now.Let's not forget Klopp was a hipster manager only hipster fans rated.
It's only recently that the majority have accepted how crucial attacking fullbacks are (this time two years ago AWB was considered clear of James and close to if not on par with Trent) and there's still a while to go until a striker like Firmino is widely accepted (ala one who won't break statical records himself but be a big reason why his team does).
I remember a few months ago on a Chelsea forum I brought up how Lukaku breaks our pressing structure and as a consequence makes us weaker defensively and I was told I was falling for the modern obsession (pressing).
I was Arteta out at the end of last season but I’m happy now he’s got us playing good football. The question is how long can he keep it up because we’ve had spells like this before which turned out to be false dawns. I will reserve my judgement of him for when the final placing is done but I have to say the quality of football over the last few games has been very impressive.
People praised OgS for finishing 2nd last season when the 1/2 consensus was City/Liverpool & look where that’s got United. An indicator of progress isn’t fickle praise from journalists & pundits as should you fall back/stagnate they’ll be the first to change their tune.
Arsenal have done well this season but I could easily see it going the other way next season even if you perform similarly.
It is, 100 percent. Some people here are very salty imo.
People who refused to adapt and accpet new norms will be left behind. Simple as that.
Those that praised Ole simply haven't been watching the actual matches or have a poor memory. There were far too many fans and pundits who ignored the "pattern of play" and only look at the results.
Turns out for a team to sustain their position, "patterns of play" is just as important as the results.
Yeah, I didn’t think I was making a particularly controversial point. Plus, it wasn’t just pundits writing us off, it was fans as well - those of other clubs and our own.
When you’re going through a transition with the 5th/6th best squad, the youngest team with the youngest manager - the eye is clearly on the medium to long term. That makes short term “success” (4th place being relative success at best) more difficult… and therefore good achievement.
So the shift in perception and expectations… is a good thing. Or, at least, I think it is.
You are 100% right , considering the resources that Arteta had at his disposal vs his competitors nobody was tipping Arsenal for 4th at the beginning of the season.
So if he achieves it it's fair to say that he's over achieved and that deserves praise.
Also this whole "They are only doing well because of the lack of European football" argument is just salty bollox too because;
1. Everyone knew they had no European football at the beginning of the season and nobody made you favorites because of it.
2. No European football isn't the reason your team looks like a cohesive unit. You could have given Ole a month between games and he would have sent his players off for a holiday and they'd still be spamming through balls on counter attacks when they got home.
All these shouts about how it may crumble next year (Err of course that can happen, just like at every other club) due to the addition of European football are ignoring the fact that Arsenal knew they had no European competition to contend with this season and cut their cloth accordingly. If they fail to invest next season then it's a failure on the board not Arteta.
Now that United are out of every completion and only have one game a week I expect them to look like 70s Brazil after the international window.
The same posters who are talking about "Kneejerk reactions" will also be the first ones posting once Arteta loses a game.
You are 100% right , considering the resources that Arteta had at his disposal vs his competitors nobody was tipping Arsenal for 4th at the beginning of the season.
So if he achieves it it's fair to say that he's over achieved and that deserves praise.
Also this whole "They are only doing well because of the lack of European football" argument is just salty bollox too because;
1. Everyone knew they had no European football at the beginning of the season and nobody made you favorites because of it.
2. No European football isn't the reason your team looks like a cohesive unit. You could have given Ole a month between games and he would have sent his players off for a holiday and they'd still be spamming through balls on counter attacks when they got home.
All these shouts about how it may crumble next year (Err of course that can happen, just like at every other club) due to the addition of European football are ignoring the fact that Arsenal knew they had no European competition to contend with this season and cut their cloth accordingly. If they fail to invest next season then it's a failure on the board not Arteta.
Now that United are out of every completion and only have one game a week I expect them to look like 70s Brazil after the international window.
The same posters who are talking about "Kneejerk reactions" will also be the first ones posting once Arteta loses a game.
This 100%.
But, whatever tbh. Even Klopp got a lot of hate for his first couple years and bottler comments, now everyone respects him. Arteta has a long way to go before any of that, but it's progress.
At the end of the day, it only matters what Arsenal fans and the board think. And so far Arteta has shown great improvement. Before I was critical on his game management, subs, favouring certain players to start (willian etc), but he has learnt as he has gone, just as a young player would do. People forget he isn't going to be perfect, it's his first job. He'll make mistakes, as long as he learns from them, and he has done.
People will always throw in their, oh it's 8th, 8th, and now maybe 4th just because everyone else is poor. If they want to say it to make themselves feel better then go ahead. But Arsenal fans are well aware of the big picture. A lot has changed since that Chelsea game on boxing day 2020. Arteta as adapted much better and learnt a lot, and it's showing. The next step is how to consistently do it over 90m and start to beat big teams. The answer right now would be to change our shape, defend deep and counter and try to grind it out, but Arteta clearly wants us to just play how we would any other game, and the gap will be bridged through training, experience and new signings. Time will tell if it will work.
Some of you are putting too much stock into the form or lack of it of certain other teams as a reason why Arsenal are even in the hunt. Generally, scoring over 70 points gets you in the top 4. You do not play versus another team over a whole season to get into the CL, you just play out your own schedules. A team that has been in the top 4 the last few seasons will not automatically make it back in. I am willing to bet Chelsea might struggle next season, but whichever team takes its' spot will still have to run their schedule through and still get 70+ points.
Doesn't mean this Arsenal team still doesn't have clear issues to work out, but that's why we are in contention for fourth and not for first.
Doesn't mean this Arsenal team still doesn't have clear issues to work out, but that's why we are in contention for fourth and not for first.
The team is just starting to gel but I still have my doubts about our ability to win games. I see Mourinho is creating this A and B team system which I think is starting to gain fruition in the pitch but I don't think it's good for the team in the long term.
I love my wife. What can I say?
This idea has been floated by almost every Arsenal fan on here (and feck me, there’s an awful lot of you) It is, of course, bollox.
The quality of the teams in the PL in any given season will vary. For all sorts of reasons. That’s why a points total that would win the league in one season might only get you fourth place in another season. All that matters is final league position. Point totals are neither here nor there. Trying to pretend that two of the six most likely teams to get top four sacking their managers half way through the season has not been a huge influence on Arsenal’s chance of CL qualification is delusional in the extreme.
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Miles off the top teams and 5 points ahead of you with a game in hand. Yep.Is this title talk real, as In we hit 89 points?
I remember loads of points comparisons over 40,50,60 games with us under Ole, I was guilty myself but at least that was a legit sample size unlike last 10 games etc, we actually managed to finish 2nd one season, and 3rd with huge section of the support not even happy with manager.
yous are miles off the top teams. Really good form at the moment but not seeing where this chat is coming from, still need to cement that 4th spot.
I laughed a bit end of game today, classic arsenal to be honest. No doubt get the 4th trophy pictures end of season champers busted out
Pete's heart is with us.
It's almost as if the whole point of a league system is to determine who the best teams are that season. Further, it seems like - and I'm going out on a limb here - that the 34 games where we don't play United and Spurs have a far greater effect on where we finish than the 4 games where we do.
So ultimately, it seems to me that while other team's performance obviously affects Arsenal's league position (seeing as they are in said league) it is at best a minor factor and not a "huge influence". But I may just be delusional.
You’re definitely delusional. The one and only reason United and Spurs sacked their manager was because of bad results. Bad results as in dropped points. The fact they dropped so many points is obviously a huge influence on Arsenal’s current league position. If both these teams hadn’t had such a terrible season they sacked their managers then chances are they would have at least 7 or 8 points more than they do right now. How would that make the league table look?
And that’s without even considering head to head results…
Arteta's job was also seriously at risk it seemed early in the season though, I think they were 7/8 points behind United early in the season. Surely it's only fair to acknowledge their bad run of form as well as United's/Spurs. They shouldn't be discounted just because one side decided to stick with their manager instead of firing them.
Arteta is responsible for that bad run so it would be ridiculous to ignore it when assessing his time in charge.
“If hypothetically these two teams had better seasons and had more points than Arsenal then who’d be higher in the table? Checkmate”
I don’t disagree with you that they’ve benefitted from a couple of their rivals struggling this season, but this stuff doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It shows how hard it is to navigate this league, and if Arsenal get top 4 it’ll be hard to argue it’s not deserved, they’ve been playing consistently well, have made some big decisions that have paid off and are the fourth best side in the league.
That is literally the only point I’m making here.
As a United fan this point is particularly relatable because our rivals having a crisis was a huge factor in us managing to finish second under Ole. So it’s funny to see Arsenal fans in denial about something similar happening to them this season.
If we had a 8 point gap when both those sides sacked their managers, maybe you'd have a point. But, United were 3 points behind us, and Spurs were 1 point behind us when they sacked their managers respectively. (or other way round).
As someone mentioned, Arteta also had a bad start, and you said it was down to Arteta but it wasn't entirely. We had 5/6 first XI players for the first 3 games of the season (injuries, transfers, covid), and the 3 teams we faced had full strength teams. There's only so much Arteta can do in that situation, especially when you are facing Brentford away, Chelsea and City.
No it isn't relatable at all tbh.
United finished 2nd last year with 74 points, the lowest for the past 5 years. So yes, in that case there was a relationship between other teams preforming poorly and Uniteds 2nd place finish.
This season we are on track for 73 points, which is an above average number for 4th place in recent times. The two situations are completely different, so you really have no comparison to make here. Yes, in the direct 4 games vs United/Spurs there was an influence, but we still haven't played half of those games yet anyway.
So unless you want to go a step further and say the entire league this year has underperformed, hence why Arsenal are able to get around 70 points potentially, then not seeing the point you're making.
I'm not disagreeing that if United and Spurs were at full force, maybe they also could have got 70+ points (maybe they still can), but with their squads you'd have expected that before the season anyway. With ours, everyone expected us to fall outside the top 6 more or less. So for Arteta to potentially, stress potentially, finish the season with over 70 points and top 4, the credit goes to him alone. It has nothing to do with others. If we finished top 4 with the lowest points total in the past 5 years, say 62 points, then you'd have a point, similar to the one you made about United last year.
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I think the Ole situation is a little different in that I never saw the kind of linear progression that I do with this Arsenal side. Ole’s United would go on great runs and then have dips, but I never thought of the team as fundamentally evolving. Sure it was super exciting when Ronaldo, Sancho and Varane came in, but it never felt like there was a clear idea of where the side was going or what it needed to get there. When United finished second, I never thought they were the second best team in the league. Whereas I think this Arsenal side probably is the fourth best side.
I know that’s different to what you’re arguing, if Spurs and United had good seasons maybe Arsenal wouldn’t be/get 4th. But I think it’s possible to evaluate this Arsenal side as it’s own entity and I feel confident in saying that 4th is a fair ranking regardless of how their competitors have done. Next season could be very different depending on United.
Perhaps I misunderstood your point. When you called United and Spurs sacking their managers a “huge influence” on where Arsenal finish, I thought you deemed it as a major factor. Which I disagree with for reasons I and others have stated.
But if your point is that it had an affect… then yes - I agree. But isn’t that inherent to a league format?
You’re basically stating that the reason Arsenal are currently in the top 4 is because there are only 3 teams who have played well enough to be above them in the table. Arsenal (and Swansea/Chelsea) fans attribute that primarily to how Arsenal are playing… but that somehow makes us delusional.
By the end of the season, league table generally doesn’t lie. It didn’t lie with Ole. United finished miles off of City. This whole debate seems to hinge on your argument that points don’t matter - only final position does. But points are awarded for winning games. Arsenal have won a lot of them. If - and it’s a big if - we continue to win at the same rate, we’ll amass a number of points that would place us in the top 4. If we do that, it will have very little to do with United or Spurs. And if we lose too many games to finish 4th or higher - it will also have very little to do with them. That’s the nature of a league system.
Which is great because no other teams have had transfers, injuries or COVID to deal with.
As for the cut-off point with the situation of each club at that point in time, it's not that simple (though I'm starting to notice a trend in your posts of oversimplifying things when it suits you), things don't change overnight when a manager is sacked and it's indicative of an overall negative dynamic in a club, and deeper issues that aren't just resolved magically.