Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

[JP77]

Last post today but as everyone has mentioned this makes no sense. We're on track for about 75 points this season. More than most other 4th place teams get each season. What we've done is completely irrelevant to what other sides have done. It's far off challenging for the league sure, but we know that. We need signings, and more experience. Also, realistically Klopp and Pep to leave tbh.

Your bold point. When Ole was sacked, we were only 3 points above United, same games played. When Spurs sacked Nuno, they were only 2 points behind us. There starts to the season were no different to ours really, especially considering we literally lost our first 3 games in a row because of many reasons.

It does make sense. United and Spurs are the clear biggest threat to Arsenal getting into the top four and both of those teams have been horrendous this season. Nuno stunk up the joint at Spurs, they sacked him and then had to hire a manager and go through numerous changes and the players adapting to a completely different system. The exact same happened at United. How can you say this makes no sense and hasn't had an effect on the overall race for the 4th spot? United and Spurs have been terrible for large chunks of this season but still find themselves close to Arsenal, that tells you all you need to know doesn't it? Arsenal have been the only team out of those three who have had stability with a manager that's been there around 3 years and that's helped them take advantage of the situation around them. The changes at United and Spurs has stopped them finding any consistency this season and Arsenal have taken advantage of it

This isn't even hating on Arsenal or Arteta, well done to him for taking advantage and likely getting them back into the CL. I think it's completely masking a lot of issues though and is going to fool a lot of Arsenal fans into believing the club is really improving when they still look a million miles away from where they should be at for a club like theirs.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

why do you always refer to them as “they” instead of “we”?

I support Roma. My wife is an Arsenal supporter though.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

It does make sense. United and Spurs are the clear biggest threat to Arsenal getting into the top four and both of those teams have been horrendous this season. Nuno stunk up the joint at Spurs, they sacked him and then had to hire a manager and go through numerous changes and the players adapting to a completely different system. The exact same happened at United. How can you say this makes no sense and hasn't had an effect on the overall race for the 4th spot? United and Spurs have been terrible for large chunks of this season but still find themselves close to Arsenal, that tells you all you need to know doesn't it? Arsenal have been the only team out of those three who have had stability with a manager that's been there around 3 years and that's helped them take advantage of the situation around them. The changes at United and Spurs has stopped them finding any consistency this season and Arsenal have taken advantage of it

This isn't even hating on Arsenal or Arteta, well done to him for taking advantage and likely getting them back into the CL. I think it's completely masking a lot of issues though and is going to fool a lot of Arsenal fans into believing the club is really improving when they still look a million miles away from where they should be at for a club like theirs.

Just spend 100m each on Rice and Bellingham, bring in ETH as manager. All these next big things will bring Man Utd back to the top. You guys are good. Man Utd has the resource to hire the very best. I won't worry a bit as a fan.

 

[Topgun1]

It does make sense. United and Spurs are the clear biggest threat to Arsenal getting into the top four and both of those teams have been horrendous this season. Nuno stunk up the joint at Spurs, they sacked him and then had to hire a manager and go through numerous changes and the players adapting to a completely different system. The exact same happened at United. How can you say this makes no sense and hasn't had an effect on the overall race for the 4th spot? United and Spurs have been terrible for large chunks of this season but still find themselves close to Arsenal, that tells you all you need to know doesn't it? Arsenal have been the only team out of those three who have had stability with a manager that's been there around 3 years and that's helped them take advantage of the situation around them. The changes at United and Spurs has stopped them finding any consistency this season and Arsenal have taken advantage of it

This isn't even hating on Arsenal or Arteta, well done to him for taking advantage and likely getting them back into the CL. I think it's completely masking a lot of issues though and is going to fool a lot of Arsenal fans into believing the club is really improving when they still look a million miles away from where they should be at for a club like theirs.

But from my perspective, Arsenal have been horrendous and could still finish top 4.

We really have no right finishing top 4 this season considering how awful the first half of the season went and how our main striker walked out of the club. Ole and Arteta were performing similarly when Ole got sacked, and I wanted Arteta to get sacked too. There was no obvious reason why he should have remained in the job.

If we get top 4 with the squad we have now, what do you think would happen if we had similar calibre players to United? If we actually get serious accomplished players in the transfer window instead of relying mostly on a bunch of youngsters, what do you think would happen?

 

[Flexdegea]

Its not really a question of mounting a title challenge, its whether we can carry our form into next season, form which will see us win 89 points. The only variable is added CL matches, so if we de prioritise them, we'll be in a title challenge whether we like it or not. Of course, we won't be chucking the CL away, as that would be stupid.
But it'll be interesting to see how a team does without the pressure of the CL. Like say Utd miss out on the CL, sort their midfield out next season and convince Ronaldo to stay then I'd think they could compete for a title

Is this title talk real, as In we hit 89 points?


I remember loads of points comparisons over 40,50,60 games with us under Ole, I was guilty myself but at least that was a legit sample size unlike last 10 games etc, we actually managed to finish 2nd one season, and 3rd with huge section of the support not even happy with manager.

yous are miles off the top teams. Really good form at the moment but not seeing where this chat is coming from, still need to cement that 4th spot.


I laughed a bit end of game today, classic arsenal to be honest. No doubt get the 4th trophy pictures end of season champers busted out

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

It does make sense. United and Spurs are the clear biggest threat to Arsenal getting into the top four and both of those teams have been horrendous this season. Nuno stunk up the joint at Spurs, they sacked him and then had to hire a manager and go through numerous changes and the players adapting to a completely different system. The exact same happened at United. How can you say this makes no sense and hasn't had an effect on the overall race for the 4th spot? United and Spurs have been terrible for large chunks of this season but still find themselves close to Arsenal, that tells you all you need to know doesn't it? Arsenal have been the only team out of those three who have had stability with a manager that's been there around 3 years and that's helped them take advantage of the situation around them. The changes at United and Spurs has stopped them finding any consistency this season and Arsenal have taken advantage of it

This isn't even hating on Arsenal or Arteta, well done to him for taking advantage and likely getting them back into the CL. I think it's completely masking a lot of issues though and is going to fool a lot of Arsenal fans into believing the club is really improving when they still look a million miles away from where they should be at for a club like theirs.

What issues? I think everyone is of the opinion that Ole and Arteta's appointments were of the same overall objective for their respective clubs...it wasn't. Arteta was tasked with:

1. Changing the culture at the club.( It was toxic)
2. Getting rid of players and staff who didn't fit his vision.
3. Starting over with young players
4. Working on a system of play that suited them in the long term.

You can see that he's achieving that and the board is fully behind the transformation and willing to give him the time to do it. Ole's appointment didn't fit these stringent deliverables.

 

[Red4Ever]

I can see this going the way of Ole.

hopefully

 

[Righteous Steps]

This lot are a much better football team than us. The ‘patterns of play’ that so many sniggered at are clear to see, the players all have high technical ability and the team maintains a shape and structure. As it stands you would say they are well placed to finish above us next season too. Some additions in the market that fit in with what they have now and they can be in the title mix.

They won’t be in the title mix regardless, it’s almost as people still haven’t cottoned on to the fact that you now need 95 points to win the league in most seasons and 88-90 points to say you’ve challenged.

Chelsea are far closer.

 

[Sarni]

They are easily the 4th best team in England right now which had not been true for a while. Very young too, so they should still have significant upside in the upcoming years and with good recruitment should probably cement themselves as a top 4 team eventually though with Newcastle resources they may catch up with them in the next 3-4 years. I reckon both us and Spurs will remain to be a step behind and more of EL teams.

 

[ThatsGreat]

Is this title talk real, as In we hit 89 points?


I remember loads of points comparisons over 40,50,60 games with us under Ole, I was guilty myself but at least that was a legit sample size unlike last 10 games etc, we actually managed to finish 2nd one season, and 3rd with huge section of the support not even happy with manager.

yous are miles off the top teams. Really good form at the moment but not seeing where this chat is coming from, still need to cement that 4th spot.


I laughed a bit end of game today, classic arsenal to be honest. No doubt get the 4th trophy pictures end of season champers busted out

Did you read the post you were responding to? I said that IF we dump the CL we could challenge for the title. As things stand, we'll be nowhere close to the title next year, most likely won't even make the top four as we don't have a big enough squad to compete on two fronts. Ironically, we could be much closer to the title if we don't make this season's top four, but still manage to strengthen the centre forward position.

 

[Rozay]

They won’t be in the title mix regardless, it’s almost as people still haven’t cottoned on to the fact that you now need 95 points to win the league in most seasons and 88-90 points to say you’ve challenged.

Chelsea are far closer.

Chelsea are massively overrated and used the fact that they won a Cup competition to trick everyone into not noticing that they have done feck all in the league for a few years. Earlier in the season the press were trying to bracket them with City and Liverpool as some sort of super team - a team that just about finished 4th last year and one we really should have caught in third place in January if not for those silly draws.

If Arsenal can get a goalscorer and a Xhaka replacement, they will have the makings of a very good side.

 

[AshRK]

I have been his huge critic and still don't see anything special in him but it's not his or arsenal's fault that United and Spurs have been crap. Fair play to him and the board for not sacking him. On merit they deserve to play the CL football.

 

[MalBot]

It does make sense. United and Spurs are the clear biggest threat to Arsenal getting into the top four and both of those teams have been horrendous this season. Nuno stunk up the joint at Spurs, they sacked him and then had to hire a manager and go through numerous changes and the players adapting to a completely different system. The exact same happened at United. How can you say this makes no sense and hasn't had an effect on the overall race for the 4th spot? United and Spurs have been terrible for large chunks of this season but still find themselves close to Arsenal, that tells you all you need to know doesn't it? Arsenal have been the only team out of those three who have had stability with a manager that's been there around 3 years and that's helped them take advantage of the situation around them. The changes at United and Spurs has stopped them finding any consistency this season and Arsenal have taken advantage of it

This isn't even hating on Arsenal or Arteta, well done to him for taking advantage and likely getting them back into the CL. I think it's completely masking a lot of issues though and is going to fool a lot of Arsenal fans into believing the club is really improving when they still look a million miles away from where they should be at for a club like theirs.

Yes it makes sense to say we could be getting 4th because our rivals haven't been that good but then you would have to say that about every team that got 4th place. Usually the teams in and around 4th place drop a lot of points, if they didn't they would all be in a title chase. So in that sense the team getting 4th would have had a "poor" season (unless they are plucky underdogs like West ham or Leicester).

"United and Spurs have been terrible for large chunks of this season but still find themselves close to Arsenal, that tells you all you need to know"

Again are you willing to say this about most teams that got 4th? Take for example last season. We were dreadful, shambles and were close to the relegation places for half the season....yet finished only 6 points off Chelsea in 4th. What did that tells us?

And lastly even if you need others to have a poor season to get 4th...like most team need it. We are on course to finish with over 70 points, more than the last few seasons when only just over mid 60 points would have done it. So if anyone deserves to get 4th it us.

 

[VP89]

I always thought he was doing something good even when he was shite, but now I just think "slow down you bastard". They look very good, excellent shape, everyone works hard, a proper striker and maybe a another solid CB off going up an extra notch.

 

[RedSky]

They'll crumble again next season when they're playing in Europe.

 

[Guy Incognito]

A season out of Europe was probably the best thing for Arteta. Clear the decks, focus on the defensive shape of the team.

 

[Top]

I support Roma. My wife is an Arsenal supporter though.

I have known your RedCafe persona for years mate; you are as big an Arsenal sympathizer as the other Arsenal fans on here. Pretending not to be just seems silly.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Yes it makes sense to say we could be getting 4th because our rivals haven't been that good but then you would have to say that about every team that got 4th place. Usually the teams in and around 4th place drop a lot of points, if they didn't they would all be in a title chase. So in that sense the team getting 4th would have had a "poor" season (unless they are plucky underdogs like West ham or Leicester).

"United and Spurs have been terrible for large chunks of this season but still find themselves close to Arsenal, that tells you all you need to know"

Again are you willing to say this about most teams that got 4th? Take for example last season. We were dreadful, shambles and were close to the relegation places for half the season....yet finished only 6 points off Chelsea in 4th. What did that tells us?

And lastly even if you need others to have a poor season to get 4th...like most team need it. We are on course to finish with over 70 points, more than the last few seasons when only just over mid 60 points would have done it. So if anyone deserves to get 4th it us.

Totally agree, the failure to see the wood for the trees on here is almost deliberately obtuse sometimes, and purely down to agendas. The average points total needed for top 4 since the inception of the Prem is 71.5, which works out at 1.88 points per game. Arsenal are currently scoring at 1.93 points per game. They are currently scoring ABOVE the average PPG needed for a top 4 finish and indeed would have achieved 4th or even 3rd in 6 of the last 8 seasons at this current rate; they are where they are on merit, not because of some perceived failures elsewhere. I fail to see the logic in posters trying to detract from that.

 

[JP77]

What issues? I think everyone is of the opinion that Ole and Arteta's appointments were of the same overall objective for their respective clubs...it wasn't. Arteta was tasked with:

1. Changing the culture at the club.( It was toxic)
2. Getting rid of players and staff who didn't fit his vision.
3. Starting over with young players
4. Working on a system of play that suited them in the long term.

You can see that he's achieving that and the board is fully behind the transformation and willing to give him the time to do it. Ole's appointment didn't fit these stringent deliverables.

Yes it makes sense to say we could be getting 4th because our rivals haven't been that good but then you would have to say that about every team that got 4th place. Usually the teams in and around 4th place drop a lot of points, if they didn't they would all be in a title chase. So in that sense the team getting 4th would have had a "poor" season (unless they are plucky underdogs like West ham or Leicester).

"United and Spurs have been terrible for large chunks of this season but still find themselves close to Arsenal, that tells you all you need to know"

Again are you willing to say this about most teams that got 4th? Take for example last season. We were dreadful, shambles and were close to the relegation places for half the season....yet finished only 6 points off Chelsea in 4th. What did that tells us?

And lastly even if you need others to have a poor season to get 4th...like most team need it. We are on course to finish with over 70 points, more than the last few seasons when only just over mid 60 points would have done it. So if anyone deserves to get 4th it us.

Go back and read my post, I'm not even hating on Arsenal or Arteta. You're exactly right, you deserve 4th if you get it, which you should at this stage, I haven't said any differently. United have been terrible this season and Spurs have been Spurs.

Read my original post. He's done well, he's taken advantage of what's happening around him, a lot of things have fallen nicely for Arteta and Arsenal. You aren't convincing me that Arsenal aren't a million miles away from being a title contending team and contenders for Europe though or convincing me that Arteta is the man to take Arsenal to being either of those. You don't need to jump into a defensive one comparing it to Ole, it's got nothing to do with OGS. The only reason I've mentioned United and Spurs is because it's had a clear effect in Arsenal getting top 4 and if you honestly don't think the issues at both clubs haven't helped Arsenal then you're looking in on it with a completely biased view. Arsenal shouldn't be aspiring to be fighting for 4th spot, the club should be big enough to be challenging for the top position and competing in Europe, you're nowhere near that after Arteta being there for 3 years. I don't think you'll be anywhere close to that next season either and the issue for Arsenal is that Spurs will possibly get settled under Conte and United will more than likely improve from the shit show they've had this season.

 

[Dancfc]

What issues? I think everyone is of the opinion that Ole and Arteta's appointments were of the same overall objective for their respective clubs...it wasn't. Arteta was tasked with:

1. Changing the culture at the club.( It was toxic)
2. Getting rid of players and staff who didn't fit his vision.
3. Starting over with young players
4. Working on a system of play that suited them in the long term.

You can see that he's achieving that and the board is fully behind the transformation and willing to give him the time to do it. Ole's appointment didn't fit these stringent deliverables.

If number 3 was his remit from the start he clearly wasn't listening for over a year. Auba, Luiz signed to new deals, Xhaka begged to stay, Mustafi of all players offered a new deal, Elnenny recalled and the likes of Willian, Pablo Mari, Partey and Cedric through the door.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Go back and read my post, I'm not even hating on Arsenal or Arteta. You're exactly right, you deserve 4th if you get it, which you should at this stage, I haven't said any differently. United have been terrible this season and Spurs have been Spurs.

Read my original post. He's done well, he's taken advantage of what's happening around him, a lot of things have fallen nicely for Arteta and Arsenal. You aren't convincing me that Arsenal aren't a million miles away from being a title contending team and contenders for Europe though or convincing me that Arteta is the man to take Arsenal to being either of those. You don't need to jump into a defensive one comparing it to Ole, it's got nothing to do with OGS. The only reason I've mentioned United and Spurs is because it's had a clear effect in Arsenal getting top 4 and if you honestly don't think the issues at both clubs haven't helped Arsenal then you're looking in on it with a completely biased view. Arsenal shouldn't be aspiring to be fighting for 4th spot, the club should be big enough to be challenging for the top position and competing in Europe, you're nowhere near that after Arteta being there for 3 years. I don't think you'll be anywhere close to that next season either and the issue for Arsenal is that Spurs will possibly get settled under Conte and United will more than likely improve from the shit show they've had this season.

How can you realistically argue that Arsenal should be challenging for top spot? Genuine question. From my POV they are financially light years behind City, Chelsea and Utd. They’ve the 5th biggest wage bill in the Prem, so finishing 4th is surely an over achievement?

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

“They’ll definitely fall away this season” has become “they’ll definitely fall away next season” at lightening speed

 

[MalBot]

Go back and read my post, I'm not even hating on Arsenal or Arteta. You're exactly right, you deserve 4th if you get it, which you should at this stage, I haven't said any differently. United have been terrible this season and Spurs have been Spurs.

Read my original post. He's done well, he's taken advantage of what's happening around him, a lot of things have fallen nicely for Arteta and Arsenal. You aren't convincing me that Arsenal aren't a million miles away from being a title contending team and contenders for Europe though or convincing me that Arteta is the man to take Arsenal to being either of those. You don't need to jump into a defensive one comparing it to Ole, it's got nothing to do with OGS. The only reason I've mentioned United and Spurs is because it's had a clear effect in Arsenal getting top 4 and if you honestly don't think the issues at both clubs haven't helped Arsenal then you're looking in on it with a completely biased view. Arsenal shouldn't be aspiring to be fighting for 4th spot, the club should be big enough to be challenging for the top position and competing in Europe, you're nowhere near that after Arteta being there for 3 years. I don't think you'll be anywhere close to that next season either and the issue for Arsenal is that Spurs will possibly get settled under Conte and United will more than likely improve from the shit show they've had this season.

Not sure what the point was quoting my post together with another post from a different poster and replying to it as one. I have said nothing about us being a title contender or even that Arteta was the right man for us. I just tried to point out how silly it sounded to say we may get 4th because everyone else has been rubbish.

 

[MalBot]

Totally agree, the failure to see the wood for the trees on here is almost deliberately obtuse sometimes, and purely down to agendas. The average points total needed for top 4 since the inception of the Prem is 71.5, which works out at 1.88 points per game. Arsenal are currently scoring at 1.93 points per game. They are currently scoring ABOVE the average PPG needed for a top 4 finish and indeed would have achieved 4th or even 3rd in 6 of the last 8 seasons at this current rate; they are where they are on merit, not because of some perceived failures elsewhere. I fail to see the logic in posters trying to detract from that.

It is a bit strange isn't it. But then again this is the Man Utd forum. I guess you're bound to get this kind of comments about a rival football club.

 

[always_hoping]

I support Roma. My wife is an Arsenal supporter though.

Thoughts on the job Jose is doing, better or worse than expected?

 

[NicolaSacco]

It is a bit strange isn't it. But then again this is the Man Utd forum. I guess you're bound to get this kind of comments about a rival football club.

Yep, fair point. You never get a race for top 4 involving the competing teams winning game after game after game in the same way you do with eg City, Liverpool in the title race. I’m not an Arsenal fan, although they are my second team, but I genuinely think Arteta had an absolutely mammoth task on his hands when he took over andby and large he’s done a damn good job of it.

 

[GoonerBear]

Wow, let's forget any talk of challenging for titles etc. We are a long way away for that. Let's just look to improve the squad and hopefully keep it as consistent against the rest of the league but try & be more competitive against the top 6 teams.

 

[BurgerVan]

Whichever gooner said about challenging for the title anytime soon needs to chill. Lets try picking up a point against the top sides first.

City and Liverpool will carve up the title wins for the foreseeable. They are so far ahead of the rest in every respect.

 

[RacingClub]

Totally agree, the failure to see the wood for the trees on here is almost deliberately obtuse sometimes, and purely down to agendas. The average points total needed for top 4 since the inception of the Prem is 71.5, which works out at 1.88 points per game. Arsenal are currently scoring at 1.93 points per game. They are currently scoring ABOVE the average PPG needed for a top 4 finish and indeed would have achieved 4th or even 3rd in 6 of the last 8 seasons at this current rate; they are where they are on merit, not because of some perceived failures elsewhere. I fail to see the logic in posters trying to detract from that.

Good post, if he keeps this form up his team will have amassed nearly as many points as Oles much heralded 2nd place finish. (Not many on here were adding the context of Lampards time at Chelsea or the Liverpool injury crisis then, in fact the Liverpool injury crisis was laughed at as an exaggeration by most until Ole admitted it's role earlier in the season)

I'm not saying he will but I think you would have to be blinded by bias to Ignore the good job he's done.

It seems like only the neutrals/ Arsenal fans can call a spade a spade here and even then a neutral is being called a secret Arsenal fan.

I put it down to the fact the United fans feel that Arteta got an easy ride from the press while Ole got dragged over the coals.

I understand that argument but from my perspective Ole deserved to be criticized more because of the resources at his disposal and (No offense) but it was obvious to everyone ,who didn't love him for scoring a goal 20 years ago, that he wasn't up to the job.

Arteta has made the short term sacrifices necessary to improve the medium/ long term success of his tenure possible and it's now beginning to bear fruit in their performance and results.

Whether he can continue that ? Who knows?

But as of right now they play the best stuff outside of the top 3 and deserve 4th place because they are better than anyone else below them.

 

[JP77]

How can you realistically argue that Arsenal should be challenging for top spot? Genuine question. From my POV they are financially light years behind City, Chelsea and Utd. They’ve the 5th biggest wage bill in the Prem, so finishing 4th is surely an over achievement?

That's exactly where the club should be aspiring to be though, plain and simple. It wasn't that long ago that the club sacked Wenger after the fans turned on him because he was 'only getting top 4' and they were going backwards. Of course Arsenal shouldn't be challenging with this team and this manager which is why I said they're a million miles away, that's not to say the club shouldn't be pushing to have the right manager and the right talent to be up there challenging when Arsenal are a supposed huge club, is it? Arsenal have spent plenty of money, let's not act like they're some sort of paupers over achieving by getting 4th. The standards have dropped massively.

Not sure what the point was quoting my post together with another post from a different poster and replying to it as one. I have said nothing about us being a title contender or even that Arteta was the right man for us. I just tried to point out how silly it sounded to say we may get 4th because everyone else has been rubbish.

It's not silly, sorry mate but you're talking nonsense. You're telling me that United being terrible and Spurs being the same hasn't benefitted Arsenal in getting 4th spot? There's no way you can argue that United haven't been piss poor this season or very similar for Spurs or argue that both of those clubs have gone through big changes, United more so, while Arsenal have been very settled going into the season. United have under performed massively. If this was a biased view I'd be saying we deserve 4th, realistically right now we don't, we've been absolutely shit, you deserve it. But don't be blinkered and act like Arsenal haven't benefitted massively from that. It's not the first time it's happened to a team and won't be the last.

 

[ThatsGreat]

I put it down to the fact the United fans feel that Arteta got an easy ride from the press while Ole got dragged over the coals.

This is a bit funny isn't, probably one of the only times media has got their stuff right. I'm not the biggest fan of Arteta and the excuses that were being made for Arteta was annoying me at the beginning. But turns out the media were on the right track, and not the fans.

 

[JP77]

This is a bit funny isn't, probably one of the only times media has got their stuff right. I'm not the biggest fan of Arteta and the excuses that were being made for Arteta was annoying me at the beginning. But turns out the media were on the right track, and not the fans.

Arteta has had Arsenal finishing 8th for two seasons running. Ole finished 3rd and 2nd in that time scoring more goals and conceding less in both seasons. No stat back up anything the media said at the time and if anything OGS was doing it in a much more pressured job with much higher expectations. He ended up completely crashing and burning and rightfully United got rid of him. Arsenal decided to stick by their man despite most of the fans wanting rid of him and despite the results being terrible. Arteta is getting more time to prove whether the media were 'right' but the jury is still out on that tbh, a 4th place finish in one season isn't going to change that yet.

 

[NicolaSacco]

That's exactly where the club should be aspiring to be though, plain and simple. It wasn't that long ago that the club sacked Wenger after the fans turned on him because he was 'only getting top 4' and they were going backwards. Of course Arsenal shouldn't be challenging with this team and this manager which is why I said they're a million miles away, that's not to say the club shouldn't be pushing to have the right manager and the right talent to be up there challenging when Arsenal are a supposed huge club, is it? Arsenal have spent plenty of money, let's not act like they're some sort of paupers over achieving by getting 4th. The standards have dropped massively.



It's not silly, sorry mate but you're talking nonsense. You're telling me that United being terrible and Spurs being the same hasn't benefitted Arsenal in getting 4th spot? There's no way you can argue that United haven't been piss poor this season or very similar for Spurs or argue that both of those clubs have gone through big changes, United more so, while Arsenal have been very settled going into the season. United have under performed massively. If this was a biased view I'd be saying we deserve 4th, realistically right now we don't, we've been absolutely shit, you deserve it. But don't be blinkered and act like Arsenal haven't benefitted massively from that. It's not the first time it's happened to a team and won't be the last.

I don’t quite know what you mean by ‘aspiring’ to be top spot though. Clearly there’s 6 or 7 teams who have that aspiration. All but one will fail but that doesn’t mean there are 6 failures every season. I judge Arsenal not on what their ultimate aim is (winning the league) but by how they finish when compared financially to the other teams with the same aspirations. Every club currently above Arsenal, and one below (Utd) have greater resources. Atletico Madrid aspire to win La Liga, Dortmund aspire to win the Bundesliga. It seems absurd to deem those teams a failure if they don’t make it, because they’re up against teams who can pay higher wages, higher transfer fees and have more of a pull.

 

[ThatsGreat]

Arteta has had Arsenal finishing 8th for two seasons running. Ole finished 3rd and 2nd in that time scoring more goals and conceding less in both seasons. No stat back up anything the media said at the time and if anything OGS was doing it in a much more pressured job with much higher expectations. He ended up completely crashing and burning and rightfully United got rid of him. Arsenal decided to stick by their man despite most of the fans wanting rid of him and despite the results being terrible. Arteta is getting more time to prove whether the media were 'right' but the jury is still out on that tbh, a 4th place finish in one season isn't going to change that yet.

So you're saying that the only thing that'll make you believe that Arteta is better than Ole, is if Arsenal win the PL/CL? Thats going to be difficult with Arsenal's resources. Even Wenger couldn't manage that.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

I don’t quite know what you mean by ‘aspiring’ to be top spot though. Clearly there’s 6 or 7 teams who have that aspiration. All but one will fail but that doesn’t mean there are 6 failures every season. I judge Arsenal not on what their ultimate aim is (winning the league) but by how they finish when compared financially to the other teams with the same aspirations. Every club currently above Arsenal, and one below (Utd) have greater resources. Atletico Madrid aspire to win La Liga, Dortmund aspire to win the Bundesliga. It seems absurd to deem those teams a failure if they don’t make it, because they’re up against teams who can pay higher wages, higher transfer fees and have more of a pull.

This logic won't work in redcafe. Bielsa is a fraud because he can't make Leeds into top 10 2 seasons in a row with one of the lowest wage budget in the league. Poch is a fraud because he couldn't win the league with Spurs that has the 6th highest wage budget in the league and got to CL final, and Pep is a fraud because he can't win the league with Burnley. Unless they can do that I am not convinced they are not fraud.

 

[allen7]

Arteta never gave me an impression of a manager with huge potential, Maybe few wins against top 6 then the view may change. But when Emery was at arsenal I felt they are going to be stronger and a top footballing side. This season us and spurs sacked our respective managers and still struggling to find consistency under new managers so everything is falling in place for Arteta plus odegaard, saka are in good form helping them.

So far he’s doing a good job and getting arsenal back into top 4. But I’m convinced he’s not the right man for their future even though they look solid at present.

I don’t think the media is favouring arteta more than ole. In fact both were given equal criticism so far.

 

[skc_18]

I don't watch them a lot so not sure how they are playing in general but based on the results I am surprised that their defense is pretty good. They are getting a lot of 1-0, 2-0 victories and that is always a indication of a good building team especially if your best players are attacking ones. Next season they might be a team to lookout for.

 

[NicolaSacco]

This logic won't work in redcafe. Bielsa is a fraud because he can't make Leeds into top 10 2 seasons in a row with one of the lowest wage budget in the league. Poch is a fraud because he couldn't win the league with Spurs that has the 6th highest wage budget in the league and got to CL final, and Pep is a fraud because he can't win the league with Burnley. Unless they can do that I am not convinced they are not fraud.

It’s ridiculous isn’t it- and you see multiple comments saying Man City’s achievements are meaningless because they are in ‘cheat mode’, despite the fact that Utd largely spend the same as them on wages and transfers.and yet Bielsa managing a team with a wage bill of a QUARTER of Utd’s gets swept under the carpet. Likewise Pochetino being a ‘bottler’ for not winning the CL. Klopp even, if I remember correctly was regularly accused of bottling cup finals, despite the obvious context in which he was playing them. I think you have a point about the refusal to apply even rudimentary logic!

 

[MalBot]

That's exactly where the club should be aspiring to be though, plain and simple. It wasn't that long ago that the club sacked Wenger after the fans turned on him because he was 'only getting top 4' and they were going backwards. Of course Arsenal shouldn't be challenging with this team and this manager which is why I said they're a million miles away, that's not to say the club shouldn't be pushing to have the right manager and the right talent to be up there challenging when Arsenal are a supposed huge club, is it? Arsenal have spent plenty of money, let's not act like they're some sort of paupers over achieving by getting 4th. The standards have dropped massively.



It's not silly, sorry mate but you're talking nonsense. You're telling me that United being terrible and Spurs being the same hasn't benefitted Arsenal in getting 4th spot? There's no way you can argue that United haven't been piss poor this season or very similar for Spurs or argue that both of those clubs have gone through big changes, United more so, while Arsenal have been very settled going into the season. United have under performed massively. If this was a biased view I'd be saying we deserve 4th, realistically right now we don't, we've been absolutely shit, you deserve it. But don't be blinkered and act like Arsenal haven't benefitted massively from that. It's not the first time it's happened to a team and won't be the last.

Where did I say we haven't benefitted from you and spurs not having a good season? I even said in my reply to you that the teams competing for just the champions league places by default aren't having a great season other wise they would be in in the mix for the title race...so unless you want to make the point that every team that ever got 4th place massively benefitted from their rivals being crap, then it is indeed silly to keep mentioning this. Add in that we probably get 4th with more points than the average and your point becomes even weaker.

To a degree you are always a bit reliant on your rivals under performing unless you win yourself every single game. When United got 2nd place last season with 74 points were you making the same point that they only got it because everyone else was shit? Ironically we could reach that tally this season yet you will still insist we got it because of other teams. Like I said before you are competing with others, so of course their results and how many points they can accumulate will have an effect on what position you can compete for but you still have the biggest influence on where you finish.

 

[dbs235]

It’s ridiculous isn’t it- and you see multiple comments saying Man City’s achievements are meaningless because they are in ‘cheat mode’, despite the fact that Utd largely spend the same as them on wages and transfers.and yet Bielsa managing a team with a wage bill of a QUARTER of Utd’s gets swept under the carpet. Likewise Pochetino being a ‘bottler’ for not winning the CL. Klopp even, if I remember correctly was regularly accused of bottling cup finals, despite the obvious context in which he was playing them. I think you have a point about the refusal to apply even rudimentary logic!

It's just the world of football banter now, literally no one is safe, doesn't matter what you do. Even Messi and Ronaldo have spent the last 10 years taking banter from fans of eachother.