Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

[amolbhatia50k]

A year with a manager with a decades experience whose biggest experience was with relegation fodder whom he managed to somehow worsen before arriving at a former club as part of some weird former legendary manager-led propaganda and then proceeding to bore the living shit out of all their supporters while chancing his way through some big games to keep his job, while everyone barring the club's supporters could see the woods for the trees and were begging for him not to be sacked?

Yeah, sounds like it could be.

To be fair to Ole he did get top 4 two seasons in a row with one 2nd place finish among that. I never thought it he was good enough as the underlying football wasn't really progressing.

My point is that while this is/will be a good season for Arteta, merely sneaking 4th once is a step in the right direction but must not be overplayed by Arsenal fans for their own benefit. What I saw of Arsenal prior to this season under Arteta was extremely poor and listless. Will be interesting to see if he kicks on from this season.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

What I saw of Arsenal prior to this season under Arteta was extremely poor and listless.

This is called improvement.

I think everyone knows Arsenal/Arteta just overhauled almost the entire starting 11 bar Xhaka and Laca with young players. We are into 2nd year of a rebuild and this is just another year in transition. I remember most arsenal fans agreed this year the target is 6th place. Hopefully Arteta and Edu can bring in more quality players with their limited budget in summer. The bench at the moment is paper thin.

 

[The Corinthian]

They’re riding their luck somewhat. They managed to get 6 points from the games vs Watford and Wolves when 0-2 points would have been more realistic given the actual game itself.

They have a tough run coming up so let’s see how they get on. Still favourites for 4th and if they miss out it’ll be a massive bottle job.

 

[Hansi Fick]

I'm glad to see them doing well, and I'd gladly swallow having been wrong about Arteta for that. But.. I don't actually see them as strong as favourites for 4th as everyone yet. It's a snapshot that will change starkly when they've played their away games at Anfield, Spurs, and Stamford Bridge (which are, if I'm not mistaken, their mythical games in hand..). Being able to rake in consistent wins against lower table fodder is massive and very important, mind, but I just don't see him able to get enough out of top games.
But I'm happy to upgrade Arteta from average to closer to Moyes level, his managerial godfather, for the time being.

 

[crossy1686]

Arsenal are still more than capable of losing their next 3 games no matter who they're against. However, there's something to be learned here from what can be achieved if you clear out your toxic influences and old mercenaries.

 

[Nish115]

They’re riding their luck somewhat. They managed to get 6 points from the games vs Watford and Wolves when 0-2 points would have been more realistic given the actual game itself.

They have a tough run coming up so let’s see how they get on. Still favourites for 4th and if they miss out it’ll be a massive bottle job.

What games are you watching? We deserved to beat both Wolves and Watford. We've ridden our luck in a few games this season, but mostly much earlier in the season. Recently our performances have warranted the results.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I'm glad to see them doing well, and I'd gladly swallow having been wrong about Arteta for that. But.. I don't actually see them as strong as favourites for 4th as everyone yet. It's a snapshot that will change starkly when they've played their away games at Anfield, Spurs, and Stamford Bridge (which are, if I'm not mistaken, their mythical games in hand..). Being able to rake in consistent wins against lower table fodder is massive and very important, mind, but I just don't see him able to get enough out of top games.
But I'm happy to upgrade Arteta from average to closer to Moyes level, his managerial godfather, for the time being.

I don't quite see it either. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if they do finish 4th, but more due to the other teams' incompetence than anything else. The feeling I got from them the previous couple of seasons was that they were trying to set up defensively and were super boring going forward. I feel the narrative that some are trying to build now is that they're better going forward so it's progress - but they're actually pretty unbalanced as a unit, and Sunday's game isn't as reassuring or as positive as they're making out. Conceding 2 goals to this Watford team, and a few other guilt edged chances, is not really anything to be proud of and they look quite open defensively. Their goals were very nice though, and their attacking unit looks to be clicking (though let's see how well they fare against better organised defences).

Getting 4th would be good, and above the expectations that might have existed at the beginning of the season, but considering the respective shitshows at Utd and Spurs, it would kinda temper that achievement somewhat (and they're not there yet). Definitely positive, but I feel that not having Europe and much more time to train in a pretty hectic season has favoured them, and it's not often mentioned. Proof will be in the pudding over the next couple of seasons, but I feel that Arteta has a ceiling and I don't really see him as the guy to push them forward.

 

[The Corinthian]

What games are you watching? We deserved to beat both Wolves and Watford. We've ridden our luck in a few games this season, but mostly much earlier in the season. Recently our performances have warranted the results.

Watford had big chances and out performed you on xG. The reason you won is because you had some good finishes from some low probability chances (and credit to your team for taking them).

Against Wolves, again they spaffed some big chances and there was also a shambolic refereeing performance in the same game. Surprised more wasn’t made of it.

 

[gajender]

I don't quite see it either. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if they do finish 4th, but more due to the other teams' incompetence than anything else. The feeling I got from them the previous couple of seasons was that they were trying to set up defensively and were super boring going forward. I feel the narrative that some are trying to build now is that they're better going forward so it's progress - but they're actually pretty unbalanced as a unit, and Sunday's game isn't as reassuring or as positive as they're making out. Conceding 2 goals to this Watford team, and a few other guilt edged chances, is not really anything to be proud of and they look quite open defensively. Their goals were very nice though, and their attacking unit looks to be clicking (though let's see how well they fare against better organised defences).

Getting 4th would be good, and above the expectations that might have existed at the beginning of the season, but considering the respective shitshows at Utd and Spurs, it would kinda temper that achievement somewhat (and they're not there yet). Definitely positive, but I feel that not having Europe and much more time to train in a pretty hectic season has favoured them, and it's not often mentioned. Proof will be in the pudding over the next couple of seasons, but I feel that Arteta has a ceiling and I don't really see him as the guy to push them forward.

I don't rate Arteta but if Arsenal get top 4 with points tally above 70 points then he certainly deserves the credit and Arsenal would have gotten Champions League football purely on their Merit rather than others failings .

 

[Nish115]

I don't quite see it either. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if they do finish 4th, but more due to the other teams' incompetence than anything else. The feeling I got from them the previous couple of seasons was that they were trying to set up defensively and were super boring going forward. I feel the narrative that some are trying to build now is that they're better going forward so it's progress - but they're actually pretty unbalanced as a unit, and Sunday's game isn't as reassuring or as positive as they're making out. Conceding 2 goals to this Watford team, and a few other guilt edged chances, is not really anything to be proud of and they look quite open defensively. Their goals were very nice though, and their attacking unit looks to be clicking (though let's see how well they fare against better organised defences).

Getting 4th would be good, and above the expectations that might have existed at the beginning of the season, but considering the respective shitshows at Utd and Spurs, it would kinda temper that achievement somewhat (and they're not there yet). Definitely positive, but I feel that not having Europe and much more time to train in a pretty hectic season has favoured them, and it's not often mentioned. Proof will be in the pudding over the next couple of seasons, but I feel that Arteta has a ceiling and I don't really see him as the guy to push them forward.

Why? It'll take 68-70 points to get top 4 roughly. Which is exactly what its taken in a few of the past seasons. So how is that down to other team's incompetence? The fact is, we had a very poor start of the season, but since the first 3 games we've been very consistent despite what people want to say.

There's no narrative, it is progress. We've changed shape towards more of a 4-3-3 and we dropped Auba at the same time. Doing both has progressed our attacking sense. Add to that our younger players getting better and adding end product to their game. There's no narrative, it's what has happened.

Defensively, we've actually looked shaky the past 2 games really, but on a whole we've been very good this season, and the stats back that up.

There's no tempering the achievement, unless we end up getting 4th with 60-65 points, then yes i'll agree it's mostly because of the other sides being poor. But at the current rate, we've just had a good season, regardless of any other sides.

 

[Nish115]

Watford had big chances and out performed you on xG. The reason you won is because you had some good finishes from some low probability chances (and credit to your team for taking them).

Against Wolves, again they spaffed some big chances and there was also a shambolic refereeing performance in the same game. Surprised more wasn’t made of it.

This is where xG is poor. We have under a 1xG that game. Which is rubbish. We created 3 good chances and took them. In what world does Odegaards chance itself not warrent 1xG on its own?

At 3-1, we were in complete control of the game. A slip at the end was disappointing, but even after that we got back control.

The ref in the Wolves game was bad for both sides. Look at the Wolves forum, every post after that game was saying how they deserved to lose.

 

[The Corinthian]

This is where xG is poor. We have under a 1xG that game. Which is rubbish. We created 3 good chances and took them. In what world does Odegaards chance itself not warrent 1xG on its own?

At 3-1, we were in complete control of the game. A slip at the end was disappointing, but even after that we got back control.

The ref in the Wolves game was bad for both sides. Look at the Wolves forum, every post after that game was saying how they deserved to lose.

That’s not how xG works. It’s a cumulative stat with a higher score given to the ‘better’ chances. If Watford took their chances they’d have won or at the least drawn the game (but like I said, fair play to Arsenal - they took their chances).

The ref screwed Wolves over big time when they played you. Ref blew for a foul when Coady was through on goal because Ben White decided to fall over. That would have been 2-0 and game done.

 

[Nish115]

That’s not how xG works. It’s a cumulative stat with a higher score given to the ‘better’ chances. If Watford took their chances they’d have won or at the least drawn the game (but like I said, fair play to Arsenal - they took their chances).

The ref screwed Wolves over big time when they played you. Ref blew for a foul when Coady was through on goal because Ben White decided to fall over. That would have been 2-0 and game done.

I know how xG works, i'm just saying this is a good case of where looking at xG alone is poor.

Odegaards chance was a clear chance alone. After that we scored two goals and hit the post, yet we have an xG of under 1. I understand why it's like that because of how xG works, but i'm saying it's why looking at xG alone is pretty poor.

The ref was very poor overall. That was the worst action though yes agreed. And no it wouldn't have been 2-0, watch it back, Coady still had a good bit to do, and.. he's a CB, very much no guarantee he'd score..

 

[The Corinthian]

I know how xG works, i'm just saying this is a good case of where looking at xG alone is poor.

Odegaards chance was a clear chance alone. After that we scored two goals and hit the post, yet we have an xG of under 1. I understand why it's like that because of how xG works, but i'm saying it's why looking at xG alone is pretty poor.

The ref was very poor overall. That was the worst action though yes agreed. And no it wouldn't have been 2-0, watch it back, Coady still had a good bit to do, and.. he's a CB, very much no guarantee he'd score..

I disagree - I watched the game and Arsenal made the most of their chances. Watford had more/better chances and didn’t take them. That’s why they’re at the bottom and you guys are challenging for fourth.

And Coady was through on goal with Hwang basically free on a square ball for a tap in. Yes, for all we know he could have messed up, but it’s a reasonable assumption that they would have scored. That was one of a few really poor decisions made by the ref that day.

 

[Nish115]

I disagree - I watched the game and Arsenal made the most of their chances. Watford had more/better chances and didn’t take them. That’s why they’re at the bottom and you guys are challenging for fourth.

And Coady was through on goal with Hwang basically free on a square ball for a tap in. Yes, for all we know he could have messed up, but it’s a reasonable assumption that they would have scored. That was one of a few really poor decisions made by the ref that day.

Which Watford chances were better in your opinion? Didn't see Ramsdale making a lot of tricky saves. If anything he should have done better with both goals really, especially the 2nd.

Put it this way, I never felt out of control of that game as I have done for other games before. Especially at 3-1 up, we controlled it quite well.

And yh I understand your point, but from what I recall it wasn't exactly clear. But if you can find a still of the foul let me know, I just tried and couldn't. As I said, look at the Wolves forum and everyone more or less said they deserved to lose, and they did. We hammered them for a large part of the game.

If you want to use xG in your first case, well here's the 2nd:

 

[Nish115]

Got it.

Meh, to me he isn't clean through. The pass is a bit overhit, and Coady isn't exactly rapid. It's not a guaranteed goal for me anyway or a tap in. Hard to tell in a way as everyone stopped.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Got it.

Meh, to me he isn't clean through. The pass is a bit overhit, and Coady isn't exactly rapid. It's not a guaranteed goal for me anyway or a tap in. Hard to tell in a way as everyone stopped.

It wasn't overhit at all. It was right in his path, pretty perfect ball. Coady could've messed it up, but that was an excellent chance.

 

[Nish115]

It wasn't overhit at all. It was right in his path, pretty perfect ball. Coady could've messed it up, but that was an excellent chance.

Very hard to tell how it would have played out, but to me Gabriel stands Coady up before he can do anything. Obviously, it could have been a chance, but it's not like there's no defenders there. And again, this is Coady. If it was Podence or someone, i'd understand more as he'd be able to get a shot or pass away a lot easier. It's all theoretical, but I don't see it as a guarenteed goal if the ref doesn't blow.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Very hard to tell how it would have played out, but to me Gabriel stands Coady up before he can do anything. Obviously, it could have been a chance, but it's not like there's no defenders there. And again, this is Coady. If it was Podence or someone, i'd understand more as he'd be able to get a shot or pass away a lot easier. It's all theoretical, but I don't see it as a guarenteed goal if the ref doesn't blow.

I didn't say it was a guaranteed goal, I said it was an excellent chance, which you're trying to downplay. Anyway, it's rather useless as it's done and dusted, but I'm pretty sure there must have been a massive sigh of relief from Arsenal players and fans on that one.

 

[Nish115]

I didn't say it was a guaranteed goal, I said it was an excellent chance, which you're trying to downplay. Anyway, it's rather useless as it's done and dusted, but I'm pretty sure there must have been a massive sigh of relief from Arsenal players and fans on that one.

That wasn't really aimed at you, mostly the original post. It would have been a chance no doubt, but the original post said if the ref didn't blow it would have been 2-0 and job done. I don't see it myself as that clear cut.

 

[Mastadon]

We are on a good run of form at the moment but I’m going to reserve judgement till the end of the season. Anybody can win/lose a few games and look good/bad let’s see if he can keep the team firing till the end of the season.

 

[GoonerBear]

I'm glad to see them doing well, and I'd gladly swallow having been wrong about Arteta for that. But.. I don't actually see them as strong as favourites for 4th as everyone yet. It's a snapshot that will change starkly when they've played their away games at Anfield, Spurs, and Stamford Bridge (which are, if I'm not mistaken, their mythical games in hand..). Being able to rake in consistent wins against lower table fodder is massive and very important, mind, but I just don't see him able to get enough out of top games.
But I'm happy to upgrade Arteta from average to closer to Moyes level, his managerial godfather, for the time being.

Hansi, forget the 3 games in hand my friend. We probably only need to win 6 out of 13 games to get top 4. If we can beat Leicester at home at the weekend that would become 5 from 12.

Getting 4th would be good, and above the expectations that might have existed at the beginning of the season, but considering the respective shitshows at Utd and Spurs, it would kinda temper that achievement somewhat (and they're not there yet)
Definitely positive, but I feel that not having Europe and much more time to train in a pretty hectic season has favoured them, and it's not often mentioned. Proof will be in the pudding ver the next couple of seasons, but I feel that Arteta has a ceiling and I don't really see him as the guy to push them forward

2 points on this. Does that work for all teams, so when Ole finished 3rd did you think it tempered that achievement because Arsenal & Spurs were shit?

Also nearly every day its mentioned how not having European football, and going out the FA Cup early has helped us, so not sure how you can say its not been talked about enough?

 

[ThierryHenry14]

It's a snapshot that will change starkly when they've played their away games at Anfield, Spurs, and Stamford Bridge (which are, if I'm not mistaken, their mythical games in hand..)

Nothing changed. We will probably lose the "big' games against the top 6 as usual. we probably will get 0 - 3 points from these games. That's not unexpected.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

I don't quite see it either. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if they do finish 4th, but more due to the other teams' incompetence than anything else.

I never understand where this comes from. Last 2 seasons 4th place didn't even get to 70 points.

Season Points for 4th place
2020-2021 67
2019-2020 66
2018-2019 71
2017-2018 75
2016-2017 76

 

[ThierryHenry14]

There's no tempering the achievement, unless we end up getting 4th with 60-65 points, then yes i'll agree it's mostly because of the other sides being poor. But at the current rate, we've just had a good season, regardless of any other sides.

It only means the league is getting more competitive and it is harder to get more "win" through out the season. Nothing more.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I never understand where this comes from. Last 2 seasons 4th place didn't even get to 70 points.

I think you do, of course it makes sense. Things don't happen in a vacuum, Arsenal's point tally also depend on how they perform against those teams around them. If you take Utd, Spurs and West Ham this season for example, that's 18 points at stake, so evidently the "incompetence of teams around them" makes a big difference in that regard.

 

[GoonerBear]

I think you do, of course it makes sense. Things don't happen in a vacuum, Arsenal's point tally also depend on how they perform against those teams around them. If you take Utd, Spurs and West Ham this season for example, that's 18 points at stake, so evidently the "incompetence of teams around them" makes a big difference in that regard.

True, but then you could use the same argument for anywhere you come in the league really.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

True, but then you could use the same argument for anywhere you come in the league really.

Of course you could, I've never said otherwise.

 

[MalBot]

What games are you watching? We deserved to beat both Wolves and Watford. We've ridden our luck in a few games this season, but mostly much earlier in the season. Recently our performances have warranted the results.

You really starts to wonder sometimes if people watched the same game. How anyone can think we were lucky to beat Wolves is beyond me. Guess it is natural for rival fans to see the same game in completely different way. They all saw the White dive for example but somehow didn't see a similar situation happened where their defender made a mistake and lost the ball in a dangerous area but decided to go down and got a questionable free kick. Or that we didn't get a penalty when Samedo took out Martinelli when he was poised to tuck away...took out the man without touching the ball but I guess that isn't a questionable decision either.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

If Arsenal do get the 4th spot then I can't wait for the next season's Amazon All or Nothing show.

 

[B20]

You really starts to wonder sometimes if people watched the same game. How anyone can think we were lucky to beat Wolves is beyond me. Guess it is natural for rival fans to see the same game in completely different way. They all saw the White dive for example but somehow didn't see a similar situation happened where their defender made a mistake and lost the ball in a dangerous area but decided to go down and got a questionable free kick. Or that we didn't get a penalty when Samedo took out Martinelli when he was poised to tuck away...took out the man without touching the ball but I guess that isn't a questionable decision either.

Welcome to caf analysis of liverpool games.

 

[shamans]

I always thought it's too soon to judge Arteta. Also, given our own coach back then was freaking Ole it never made sense to me to ridicule Arteta. He's proving to be a smart coach and even top 5 would be decent finish for Arsenal.

 

[Vaultech]

I always thought it's too soon to judge Arteta. Also, given our own coach back then was freaking Ole it never made sense to me to ridicule Arteta. He's proving to be a smart coach and even top 5 would be decent finish for Arsenal.

Caf is a shit judge of managers. Fans are too obsessed with the results and tend to ignore the context a manager is under. Ole is performing well because he had a really expensive squad compared to Arsenal. Of course Ole is going to have an easier time securing top 4 compared to Arteta.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

I always thought it's too soon to judge Arteta. Also, given our own coach back then was freaking Ole it never made sense to me to ridicule Arteta. He's proving to be a smart coach and even top 5 would be decent finish for Arsenal.

If he lose against liverpool he will be the worst coach ever for Arsenal again and he is finished. Just check the Pep Suck watch thread after every time City "draw" a game.

 

[shamans]

Caf is a shit judge of managers. Fans are too obsessed with the results and tend to ignore the context a manager is under. Ole is performing well because he had a really expensive squad compared to Arsenal. Of course Ole is going to have an easier time securing top 4 compared to Arteta.

Yep. I'd say in general people are terrible at judging managers. Also, people have no grey areas. Poch doesn't win a trophy he is now ultimate shite and worthless of a manager. Tuchel loses few games, he's garbage and overrated etc

 

[Cascarino]

Caf is a shit judge of managers. Fans are too obsessed with the results and tend to ignore the context a manager is under. Ole is performing well because he had a really expensive squad compared to Arsenal. Of course Ole is going to have an easier time securing top 4 compared to Arteta.

Judging played can be hard, judging managers is much harder.

You make a very good point about context, there are so many factors at play and these often get missed or ignored.

 

[Vaultech]

Yep. I'd say in general people are terrible at judging managers. Also, people have no grey areas. Poch doesn't win a trophy he is now ultimate shite and worthless of a manager. Tuchel loses few games, he's garbage and overrated etc

I find it's more of an United fanbase issue than an issue at other clubs imo. The years under Fergie has blinded the United fanbase as to what makes a good manager. United fans for some reason seems to rate Ole for not being a tactical manager and dislike more tactical managers.

There is this "anti-hipster" trend in Caf.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I find it's more of an United fanbase issue than an issue at other clubs imo. The years under Fergie has blinded the United fanbase as to what makes a good manager. United fans for some reason seems to rate Ole for not being a tactical manager and dislike more tactical managers. There is this "anti-hipster" trend in Caf.

Tactics are a bit overvalued because they're more easily seen compared to other things managers do.

They are also easy to write and talk about, especially when a team is winning games. So you can find plenty of articles and comments talking about managers as "tactically astute." Once the results stop being good, which happens quite often when the manager switches clubs, they are suddenly stubborn or naive or many other things.

 

[Abhinav]

Its hard to judge if Arteta is shaping Arsenal into anything special or is it just a build-up to nothing. After all, Ole also got us to a top 4 finish in 2019/20 when we were seriously lacking quality. Opinions change from match to match but given what we have seen from him earlier, its difficult to heap any disproportionate praise on him. Not to further downplay his achievements this season, the fact is that he is competing against 2 clubs who have both changed their managers mid season.

 

[Vaultech]

Tactics are a bit overvalued because they're more easily seen compared to other things managers do.

They are also easy to write and talk about, especially when a team is winning games. So you can find plenty of articles and comments talking about managers as "tactically astute." Once the results stop being good, which happens quite often when the manager switches clubs, they are suddenly stubborn or naive or many other things.

I think they are undervalued by most fans. Pep's deep understanding and obsession with tactics allowed him to dominate leagues. But fans outside of his clubs tend to downplay that and attribute everything to the resources he had at his disposal. Too many managers talk about buying good players as a way out. Yeah, clubs like PSG has shown you can win a weaker league with a heavily stacked team, but they never dominate it the way Guardiola does at stronger leagues.

Its hard to judge if Arteta is shaping Arsenal into anything special or is it just a build-up to nothing. After all, Ole also got us to a top 4 finish in 2019/20 when we were seriously lacking quality. Opinions change from match to match but given what we have seen from him earlier, its difficult to heap any disproportionate praise on him. Not to further downplay his achievements this season, the fact is that he is competing against 2 clubs who have both changed their managers mid season.

Ole got into top 4 due to the strength of Man United squad, and having all his key players hit a purple patch in form. Ole with a strong squad tend to squeak to victory by close margins all the time.

Arsenal on the other hand had to give away players essentially for free because all their top-earners are performing so badly that they have no strong value in the market. If Arteta had the same resources at Arsenal as Ole had at Man United, it would be legitimate to ask serious question about his performance.

The fact of the matter is, Arsenal is no way near United in terms of spending and resources.