I'm not a fan of it. But I don't think this team is capable of dominating games in the way we may have done so in earlier years. This is a team that was regularly conceeding 20+ shots a game against the likes of Watford before Arteta took over. Building from the back has always made sense in management. The great sides all tend to have a great back 5.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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I'm not a fan of it. But I don't think this team is capable of dominating games in the way we may have done so in earlier years. This is a team that was regularly conceeding 20+ shots a game against the likes of Watford before Arteta took over. Building from the back has always made sense in management. The great sides all tend to have a great back 5.
Speaking of Wenger, there was a special screening of the Invincible film last night with Wenger & David Dein on stage, pics look great, especially the last picture with Cesc.
The constraints were definitiely up until say the mid 2010s. I think he did an amazing job selling his best players every. The problem was when there was money we spent it poorly. It was brewing in terms of squad building for a long time. Partly because of under investment in years prior, partly due to all our best players reaching a time past their prime and partly from buying average players when we needed top draw ones.
I think Wenger got every last bit out of Alexis and Ozil. He let Ozil have a free role without defensive responsibility. When the new managers came in and asked Ozil to track back he couldn't play as well. IMO he plays better under Wenger allowing him the freedom, while lesser players carry his water.
New Wenger quote: “Highbury? My soul. The Emirates? My suffering,” I really do believe losing his best players every year, not getting investment and the abuse towards the end broke him abit and it's why he hasn't been back since.
What does that even mean?
If we scrape top 4 or top 6 by 2 points at the end of the season, do we get deducted the points we got from Watford because it wasn’t “credible”?
The teams on that list make up half of the premier league.
I think the Academy deserves credit for developing ESR, Saka and AMN so not just buying youth but producing it’s own
Sometimes decisions go for you, sometimes they don’t. True for all teams.
A somewhat one eyed version of that match, though as confirmation bias goes, that’s up there with the best of them. In fact, the only team I can remember recently having its arse handed to it on a plate by Leicester at the King Power was…now let me see…Newton Heath Descendants?
Is that a funny? You’re trying to be funny? Poor effort. 4/10.
3/10 for the poor Joe Pesci effort
In the first half, they were saves off low percentage shots or sequences that weren't indicative of bad defending. Ramsdale made a great save from Iheanacho shooting from outside the box, another great save on Maddison's free kick, and then got over to keep out Evans' point blank follow up toe poke after saving the free kick.
Leicester had an XG of 0.08 until the Maddison free kick, Evans follow up sequence that came at the 42nd minute. Leicester really created nothing from open play all half.
In the second half they put us under a lot more pressure but we were defending a lead and basically letting them have the ball. Arsenal need to learn how to do that more effectively - we definitely dropped too deep and became too passive. But the overall pattern of play in that half was very much a product of one team having a two goal lead.
Yeah that's a fair assessment and Leicester definitely attacked more in the second half, but even in the first half after the goals they did start coming at Arsenal, and were getting space outside the box where they got the free kick as well. Those are low percentage shots, but in this context it would be considered dangerous play given Leicester have players like Maddison and Tielemans who are good shooters from range, so even if the big save was from a free kick, it was a tactical error to allow them space and fouls in that area.
If you listen to Klopp after the WHU game, they worked on not giving WHU any set pieces given how dangerous they are from free kick and corners, obviously they failed and they conceded twice from corners, but from a coaching/tactics standpoint, they should have broken Leicester attacks earlier or diverted it out wide and not allow shots/fouls in central areas.
Yup, I would agree with that. Arsenal have a young team and its something they really need to improve. In this recent run, we have too often gone from high press and playing a million miles an hour to playing too passively, defending too deep, and struggling to get out. We need to learn how to exert more control on matches in which we are leading, falling back a bit but only into an aggressive midblock rather than a passive low block.
We had plenty of quality players in the squad post 2013 when there was more money to spend. The main issue back then was injuries.
Fair play to Lego pep, he's done well and you have to say he's clearly better than Ole. He's won a trophy, implemented a style of play despite having considerably less resources than Ole.
Smashing small teams is bred and butter to win the league, and we rarely used to concede points against this teams. That’s called to be consistent you know.
That’s not saying we were bad against big teams. But we hardly had an impressive record against them either. We could be smashed at Old Trafford by Liverpool and still win the league.
The season we lost 1-6 against city, we just went on an impressive run of 1-0 after that and finished the same number of points as City (throwing the league this season by the way…).
Consistency was key with the feeling you have to win every game against inferior opposition, and make them feel they were inferior.
It never happened after Fergie and that’s why we did not win the league.
I cant see how any Utd fan can rubbish another teams efforts, with the shit fest we are producing
Fun fact we only ever lost once with margin of more than a goal at Old Trafford against Liverpool in PL and we actually won more then them at Anfield as well in Pl under SirAlex .
Infact Chelsea were the only team who were able to go toe to toe against United during PL under Sir Alex and that was the case even before they became force under Abramovich.
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You really don't. On the whole, beyond a stringy series of results, which could very much go tits up over the coming games, there's nothing that really suggests this.
So, the inevitable Arsenal boom period is fully in effect?
That happened only few times, we didn't get smashed all the time. The post I quoted said "We never won the league beating big clubs" that's nonsense. We had good record in big games and won against all teams.
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Fair enough, didn’t read the post you were responding to.
I was not talking about Solskjaer at all. I did not mention him once. This is the thread about Arteta. I don't care about Ole, leave me alone with your Ole.
Arteta was hired to manage an Arsenal that had moved on from Wenger as he couldn't win the title anymore, was more or less disappointing in the CL knockout stages and ended up finishing 5th once after two decades of top 4, often top 2, finishes.
Arteta had no previous record as manager and what he achieved in his career so far is finishing fecking 8th twice, with an Arsenal squad that saw heavier investment than Wenger had been granted in his last decade. And now Arsenal are supposed to be happy that, if things go really well, they might finish 5th or 6th? CL knockout stages? Getting thrashed by Bayern? Oh the memories..
Arsenal deserve better and must demand better.
People keep mentioning the finishing 8th thing twice, the first time he didn't take over the job until halfway through the season, where he improved on the points tally and picked up the FA cup. In his first full season he did finish 8th, 6 points off 4th while having a squad widely recognised as in desperate need of an overhaul. He managed to make two signings, one of which Partey spent significant amounts of the season out injured. Some of you have spent so many posts in here mocking and ridiculing him that if he does end up a success I'm scared for your sanity.
10 points after 7 games - 3 wins needed to reach the target.
So tonight is a must win game not merely for the symbolics
Arteta getting a lucky break with the absence of Zaha..
I don't understand it. You've constantly posted over the last few days that he needs to be sacked, which while I find a very confusing opinion we're all entitled to our own. Yet we see here that he passed all of your criteria. If you set this as the requirement and he met it, why do you think he should be sacked?
But What would constitute a successful season for Arsenal under Arteta because there seem to be a quite discrepancy between people who rate Arteta as manager and people who don't idea of success.
It’s got to be top 6, while pushing for a fourth spot. It’s been clear throughout his time at Arsenal what he’s been trying to do, and the important thing is that he and the team continue to progress.
His first season was getting to grips with the squad and Identifying who needed to go and also finding replacements to bring in the season after. This season he’s bought in a new back line after being backed in his squad overhaul, it’s about integrating everybody in and getting the team competitive.
The target is top 6th, but I think he’ll get 4th
The discrepancy comes from people vastly underestimating the difficulty of the job when he took over. It’s why the board was patient when the people in here were losing their minds.
That's fair enough I just don't see it with him unless top 4 is another crap shoot with Sub par total of like 66 points they won't be making it and you are giving far too much credit to Arsenal's Board when it's not even clear that their gamble is even close to paying off.
Why do they deserve better?
For the reasons outlined in his post. He was hired to get better results than they used to get under Wenger and has been heavily backed financially. He hasn’t even been getting better results than Wenger’s succesors!
A lot will depend on United. Player for player they're a better side, and if their season switches it'll be much more difficult. If the season does end up a write-off for United this will make things a lot more open.
They've done very well to bounce back from their three defeats in a row, I think because they were missing players they had that confidence to bounce back and a pretty kind fixture list has allowed them to hit their stride and build up some belief. The next period will tell us a lot about this side, not necessarily just in terms of points gained, but in terms of how they approach the games, and their reactions if they wobble. This Arsenal side still has a lot of unknown qualities, a new backline this summer and players like smith rowe and Saka, 20 and 21 who are already so important to the side.
6th will be the target, but I think they're going to get 4th (repeating myself for no apparent reason)
I agree that it's not clear, but it wasn't clear a few months into Arteta's reign that he was a disaster/failure and it didn't stop this thread being filled with thousands of posts writing him off and ignoring all context. I'm not necessarily giving the board credit, I'm just highlighting that they were fully aware of the problem. Arteta was bought into stabilise the side and overhaul the squad.
We're only a few months into his second full season, he's only been backed this summer to overhaul the squad. He's spent big and he's targeted young hungry players, as well as cementing Smith Rowe and Saka as pivotal players. The judgement in this thread was far too pre-emptive, and while I don't think he's doing an amazing job, I can't really understand the comments being made now about being terrible or utterly shite. We have a poster who set the criteria for what he needed to do this season, and after Arteta met those requirements he ignored what he had posted and demanded that the Arsenal supporters deserve better and he should be sacked
He's been heavily backed financially this summer only really. So if you are using that to judge him, you need to see how it plays out.
But his opposition have been spending more also, so it's a bad comparison. The competition now is just a lot higher than when Wenger was last here.
No it’s not. Wenger never came anywhere near to the spending of clubs like United or Chelsea. Arsenal’s net spend under Arteta runs them close (and shits all over the rest of the league).
Does he come close though? I think yes miles behind the top teams.
I don't understand the expectation of other people, but Arsenal's wage budget is ranked 5th in EPL so a finish from 4 to 6 is a reasonable expectation from the manager. Arsenal's transfer net spent for the past 5/past 10 season sits 3rd in the league so Arsenal did not do well in spending the transfer money wisely given the quality of the squads at the moment. We do not have the 3rd best squad in the league. I do not expect the manager do a miracle and punch above the weight of the club every year, which is exactly what Wenger did back then.
https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/
https://www.transfermarkt.us/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1
Transitioning to a successful high press takes time and coaching skill. He has less of that skill than Pep or Klopp so it will take him longer. But once he gets there he can expect to be top five - probably at our expense.
It's interesting how narratives can change so quickly. The start of the season for Arsenal was terrible and people were calling for Arteta's head. Now they've been on a good run and people believe it's a turning point at the club. In my opinion, Arsenal needs to push on now. If they have another midseason collapse like seasons' past, they'll be condemned to another finish outside the top 6, which considering the investment in the side and lack of European games this year, would be a failure.
Personally, I can't see Arteta being that guy to bring Arsenal back to being contenders. I think the bar has been set so low, that it's become acceptable for managers with no credentials to be given the responsibility of a club the size of Arsenal. It's literally the same issue we have a United.
Personally, I can't see Arteta being that guy to bring Arsenal back to being contenders. I think the bar has been set so low, that it's become acceptable for managers with no credentials to be given the responsibility of a club the size of Arsenal. It's literally the same issue we have a United.
This is exactly what I mean by expectations. A club who spend as much as Arsenal do, shouldn't be settling for anything less than top 6.
Top clubs assemble the best players they can get, as they have the most resources. Of course they must also hire the best managers. And the best managers are those that add something extra, make a team punch above the weight of the squad. That is exactly what Arsenal should demand of their manager, and it's not miracle work either. There's hundreds of professional managers out there, and some of them make teams punch above their weight, and some of those some would love to work for Arsenal.
It's madness that you make all this fuzz about signing players and which playres are how good and all, and then you hire a guy who has never coached before and go "oh it's alright, I'm not expecting miracles".
It hasn't, what's been posted has been posted over the last year or two. It's been fully predicted.
Difficult job, squad needs overhaul, will take time, backed this summer financially, now going into second full season, see how he does.
The problem was their net spend over 2010 to 2020 was half of the likes of City and United*. Combined with a lower wage bill, some really poorly thought out signings (Pepe for over 70m
) and generally bad squad building it resulted in the squad deteriorating to a really poor state. Emery (a good manager) did a brilliant job to get 5th, but by all the metrics they were a midtable side and this caught up with them, they finished the season in dreadful form, and then next season the club completely crashed.When judging a manager the context needs to be accounted for and it's often ignored. People keep mentioning Arteta finishing 8th twice, but the first one was when he took over at the end of December and points wise set a top 6 rate. His first full season he could only bring in Partey and Gabriel and couldn't overhaul the squad, he finished 8th but 6 points off 4th and finished the season very strongly.
*I've used planetfootball and givemefootball, cba to crunch the numbers on transfermarket to get a rough idea. But there's still a clear gulf despite Arsenal throwing money away towards the end of the decade.
In their last 26 league games they've won 15, they've drawn 5 and lost 6. The reason people were calling for Arteta's head after the first three games is because they've been calling for his head non-stop ever since he joined (not the media, general football fans). Just look at the lineups in those three games, they're completely different to what they have now because players were missing and signings hadn't been finalised. But people don't look closely at the situation, they just see the name Arsenal and where they are in the league and that's enough for them to make up their mind.
The expectation of punching above the weight every season is unrealistic in my opinion. Even Klopp couldn't do that with Dortmund, and he can't with Liverpool either. No one is claiming Arteta is an elite manager. He is still learning on the job. The board is happy with him right now and so be it. As long as he can deliver a top 6 finish i think he is fine.